A Learning Game (Help me with Monarch)

[Dubioza]

...as Voice said, I should have been more patient and waited for more feedback from other advanced players.

That should be:

...as Voice said, I should have been more patient and waited for more feedback from advanced players.

Anyhow, it didn't take me long to make that screen, I was doing few things at once. Sometimes that tends to be messy
I hope it helped!

 

[Gwynnja]

Apart from a specific few (like Fur and Deer), which can all be seen at the start, no resource can appear on forested tiles on normal map scripts, certainly no hidden strategic ones. This applies to normal mapscripts.

Not even uranium/coal/oil/aluminum?

 

[xploring]

I am just another lurking noob hoping to learn off your thread, but since no one has mentioned yet, would just like to point out you should install the BUG mod (or BUFFY), it makes playing and keeping track of info so much easier.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=268

I noticed you mark the potential city site probably in Paint. If you zoom out to the max in game, there is a tool that allows you to draw lines and mark potential city sites. There is a keyboard shortcut for doing this but I forgot.

 

[JBossch]

There is a keyboard shortcut for doing this but I forgot.

Alt + X

 

[JBossch]

I'm a little late here, but...

- I would have considered settling 1E and risk the possibility of a resource on the tile next to the corn. Especially after a scout move to the east would have shown another hill. Losing the clam is meh, as long as another city can use it eventually. SIP is OK, it just hurts my soul to settle on a riverside grass hill. From the start you can see that 1W loses two grass hills so I would consider that out of the question.

- I would probably stick with worker first. No fishing and no 3 hammer tile would make me real wary of a workboat start. Tech something like Mine -> BW -> Fish -> AH? Even if you SIP, you are only talking maybe 2 turns of downtime for the worker. Settle 1E and no downtime. Just a thought.

 

[Darkscis]

Hi All, yet another long time lurker first time poster here. I decided I would shadow this game as well (at least the start, I tend to run out of steam a few hours in and just close the game. Pretty sure I have only ever finished 3 actual games, the rest I quit when I know I'm in a position I just can't lose. I tend to play at Monarch level but considering I put myself into a winning position quite easily in every game I probably should move up.

That said, I saved this into a WB file so I could play it with Buffy and here goes.

Spoiler :

T01 - Scout NW, SiP and build worker. Research set to Mining -> Bronze Working.
T03 - Purple borders are spotted.

Spoiler :

T05 - Meet Shaka's scout. Great.
T07 - Spot Shaka's borders. Too close for comfort, decide he needs to go.
T08 - Mining in, BW started.
T15 - Worker finished, warrior selected. Worker farms corn.

Spoiler :

T20 - Farm finished, worker moves to the grass hill. His arrival times perfectly with the finish of BW. He will chop as soon as he gets there.
T23 - BW in, Fishing is chosen next. Worker starts to chop. Copper is located to the NW.

Spoiler :

T25 - Capital build is changed to a worker, which the chop goes into.

Spoiler :

T26 - Worker starts to build mine.
T30 - Fishing is in, The Wheel chosen next. Mine is finished, worker moves to chop again. Moving the scout to fog bust the copper site.
T31 - 2nd worker finished, warrior build resumes. 2nd worker moves to chop as well.

Spoiler :

T32 - Warrior finishes and moves to also fog bust the path to the copper. Work boat chosen. Capital tiles are switched to the clams so it grows next turn instead of 2.

Spoiler :

T33 - Capital grows, chop goes into WB.
T34 - WB finished, Settler chosen. Worker 1 moves for another chop. Worker 2's chop goes into the settler. Corn, clam and mine are worked.
T35 - Capital tiles are changed to all clams to get The Wheel in 1 turn. Worker 2 moves onto the GH to begin a road to the copper site. Worker 1 chops.

Spoiler :

T36 - The Wheel in, Pottery chosen. Capital changed back to the good tiles.
T37 - Chop goes into settler, Worker 1 will now help road towards the copper.
T41 - Settler is in, warrior next.
T42 - Settler is in position to settle. Worker 2 is on the rice, Worker 1 is with the settler ready to move onto the rice next turn as well. Scout is sent off to take a look at Shaka's new city I can see. Pottery is in, Writing is next.

Spoiler :

T43 - Pasargardae settled and building a warrior. Both workers are improving rice.
T44 - Warrior finishes in capital, another work boat chosen.
T45 - Work boat is whipped, rice is finished. The worker with movement left is moved to the copper. Capital is set to grow on the corn and 2 clams.

Spoiler :

T46 - WB is finished, barracks next. The worker left on the rice moves towards the capital to start chopping.
T48 - Capital grows, production switched to a worker. Worker at cap starts chopping, copper online.
T49 - Worker at Pasargardae moves to PH to build a mine.
T50 - Chop @ capital goes into worker. Worker will start pre-chopping.
T52 - Worker in, moves to remaining grass hill to chop then mine. Other worker still pre-chopping. Barracks build resumes.
T53 - Writing is in, open borders signed with Shaka and Qin. Scout starts looking for strat resources in Shaka's land. Mine @ Pasargardae is finished, worker there will pre-chop.

Spoiler :

I stopped there because I'm not sure where to go, I can get Maths in 19 turns which will likely be too late to use the boosted chops for an axe rush on Shaka. My original thought was to hit Alpha and backfill the worker techs I am lacking.

If Shaka has no strat resources I will hit him with axes, if he does I will use the pre-chops on settlers and claim the massive chunks of land to the east, west and south.

 

[JBossch]

Up to 1120BC:

Spoiler :

Had to take a shot at this one after I saw that land

Apologies to OP, as I didn't really document this as closely as I should have for learning purposes, but hopefully this helps.

Settled 1E and built a worker first. Tech path was Mine -> BW -> Fish -> AH -> Wheel -> Sailing -> Pottery (slider to 0% after sailing, until I was over 200-ish gold).

My worker improved the corn, then the grass hill, then chopped the other grass hills and improved those. I actually almost missed the horse to the west due to kinda shoddy scouting. My scout focused on scoping Shaka's lands early on to see if he would pop copper.

Settled my 2nd city to get the horses in first ring. Note that I only built 2 roads, enough to connect horses to the river. Once I had sailing, the river connected horses to the trade network. At that point, both workers chopped out Immortals in the cap.

Here's Horsey Town and it's minimal trade network:

Spoiler :

I hit Shaka in 1200 with a stack of 10.

In 1120, his capital fell.

He's done, just a mop up operation now. I will settle the gold/FPs 1W of the northern wine. Not sure how many of Shaka's cities I will keep. A lot of overlap if I keep UmGundu but that's not so bad.


A note on Shaka: I think I disagree with those counseling against attacking him early. I normally play immortal but seeing him this close means there is not enough space for the two of us. He will definitely attack so might as well crush him when you have an advantage. If he had copper it would change things, but I probably would have just settled the copper and chopped out axes. Would have delayed the attack a bit but it would have been fine.

Questions/comments welcome. I can post more eventually if there is interest. Thanks for posting the game, AspiringScholar!

 

[Darkscis]

...

Spoiler :

What made you decide to go for AH after you had BW and had presumably seen the copper? The only thing it could improve is the plains cows to the NE which wouldn't be settled for quite some time anyway. Was it purely to gamble for horses because the copper was a fair distance away?

Don't mean to question your judgement just trying to learn the reasoning behind your choice. Personally, once I saw that copper I didn't care about horses and AH was a tech I decided I could trade for later down the line.

 

[JBossch]

Spoiler :

What made you decide to go for AH after you had BW and had presumably seen the copper? The only thing it could improve is the plains cows to the NE which wouldn't be settled for quite some time anyway. Was it purely to gamble for horses because the copper was a fair distance away?

Don't mean to question your judgement just trying to learn the reasoning behind your choice. Personally, once I saw that copper I didn't care about horses and AH was a tech I decided I could trade for later down the line.

Spoiler :

I went for AH purely because I wanted to Immortal rush Shaka and was willing to roll the dice. As soon as I saw Shaka on turn 2, basically every decision I made was to set this up as fast as possible and by the time I started teching AH I knew Shaka didn't have copper for the Impi counter. Horses are pretty common and I was optimistic they would pop. As I mentioned I almost missed them! I spent a couple really disappointed turns after teching AH before my scout finally chanced upon the horses. I had a settler building and if no horses I would have just settled the copper and been mildly annoyed. With settler/worker in queue I could work the clams tiles so my tech was pretty fast and so I wasn't sweating a potential wasted tech. Thanks for the question!

 

[Darkscis]

Spoiler :

I went for AH purely because I wanted to Immortal rush Shaka and was willing to roll the dice. As soon as I saw Shaka on turn 2, basically every decision I made was to set this up as fast as possible and by the time I started teching AH I knew Shaka didn't have copper for the Impi counter. Horses are pretty common and I was optimistic they would pop. As I mentioned I almost missed them! I spent a couple really disappointed turns after teching AH before my scout finally chanced upon the horses. I had a settler building and if no horses I would have just settled the copper and been mildly annoyed. With settler/worker in queue I could work the clams tiles so my tech was pretty fast and so I wasn't sweating a potential wasted tech. Thanks for the question!

Spoiler :

Ahh ok that makes sense. I was wondering if maybe I had missed something important but it was just the fact that you decided to gamble whereas I went for the sure thing

 

[dmd175]

Up to 1120BC:

Spoiler :

Very nice JBossch! I agree with you and with Aspiring Scholar above that Shaka is a problem and has to go. Shaka has amazing land and the four gold FP site will not be possible. In planning my immortal rush, I should have better located my 'Horsey Town' as you did to hook up horses quickly, but I got distracted from the overarching and long-term goal of immortals as soon as possible, and tried to make it get marble etc in the BFC for an eventual better city == very dumb move. Immortal rush too slow and failed. As I was preparing, QSH and Shaka declared on me, on the same turn -- they weren't even that friendly.

Then I tried again and tried to make peace with Shaka, e.g. OB, techs, etc. Bribed him in vs. QSH; QSH stalemate with him and was holding his own despite a long front with multiple Shaka spam cities in the desert just SE of China/W of me. Eventually they made peace and turned on me just after 1AD.

In the early planning, for another game, I am sure the four gold site is unavailable no matter how quickly that settler is available. It is also I think much too close to Shaka's capital (3-4 diagonal) and library/etc won't save it. If you capture Shaka's second city you'll get a nice gold/FP spot, but I agree with Choggy I think and settled on the hilly wine, but in re-doing this I think I will follow JBossch's template and see if I can improve the outcome.

I am also won over to the benefit of worker first and delaying the WB opening without a higher hammer tile - thanks CFC.

 

[Dubioza]

I know gold looks tempting, copper for deff too, but those cities are too far from capital for 2nd city. First few cities should be as close to capital as possible - if there's no strategic resource nearby, tech Archery until something better comes along. You'll eventually come to that res. There should be very few instances for settling that far away.

 

[Ghpstage]

Not even uranium/coal/oil/aluminum?

Under normal conditions no, but as oil can be found under jungle I am unsure what the start generator would make of it. It may turn it into forests in such a case, but i've never seen it happen.

 

[JBossch]

I know gold looks tempting, copper for deff too, but those cities are too far from capital for 2nd city. First few cities should be as close to capital as possible - if there's no strategic resource nearby, tech Archery until something better comes along. You'll eventually come to that res. There should be very few instances for settling that far away.

Isn't the gold spot the logical 2nd city? I would have gone there if we didn't have Shaka on top of us (meaning the 3 gold spot just north of capital, not trying for 4 gold). Given Shaka's proximity I think a slightly far 2nd city at horses (my preference) or copper is entirely reasonable.

 

[AspiringScholar]

I know gold looks tempting, copper for deff too, but those cities are too far from capital for 2nd city. First few cities should be as close to capital as possible - if there's no strategic resource nearby, tech Archery until something better comes along. You'll eventually come to that res. There should be very few instances for settling that far away.

It is a little 'shaky' in its proximity to Shaka, and distance from the capital, but wouldn't you consider the tremendous benefit of having that site certainly worth making that move realistic? Under normal circumstances, settling near the capital is probably the better and more dependable route, but in instances like this, can we afford to let the opportunity slip?

Now, may be entirely wrong, and I turn a listening ear onto correction from players who know what they're doing (the last thing I would want to be is obstinate) but these are my thoughts on the matter: in terms of risk/reward, the latter is greater.

 

[lymond]

While the city looks like a massive future bureau cap, it is a bit far and with some many FPs may be better suited to be split up. It's also not that productive first thing. Look for spots that are as close as possible that are immediately productive, even if sharing resources. Overlap is not a bad thing at all, especially early.

Not looking at it at the moment, but from recollection I think eventually settling on one of those golds on the west side will make a good city.

I will say that settle a city in reasonable distance that just works gold immediately can pay off nicely.

edit: I looked at the map again. Settling on the PH wine is not bad idea.

 

[JBossch]

It is a little 'shaky' in its proximity to Shaka, and distance from the capital, but wouldn't you consider the tremendous benefit of having that site certainly worth making that move realistic? Under normal circumstances, settling near the capital is probably the better and more dependable route, but in instances like this, can we afford to let the opportunity slip?

Now, may be entirely wrong, and I turn a listening ear onto correction from players who know what they're doing (the last thing I would want to be is obstinate) but these are my thoughts on the matter: in terms of risk/reward, the latter is greater.

I think your 4 gold site is a bad idea for a few reasons. Proximity to Shaka is unimportant if you plan to take him out, but if you do want war then your 2nd city is going to be determined based on strat resources. You will have plenty of time to cottage flood plains after Shaka is crushed.

Secondly, you will have a really hard time working all those gold with just flood plains for food, especially considering the pollution factor. That area is best split between 2 cities at least. I will be farming flood plains a bit as well, at least until I have enough growth to work the mines and switch over to cottages.

Finally, play a few turns and see where Shaka settles.

Spoiler :

Might not be worth agonizing over this too much.

 

[lymond]

Now, may be entirely wrong, and I turn a listening ear onto correction from players who know what they're doing (the last thing I would want to be is obstinate) but these are my thoughts on the matter: in terms of risk/reward, the latter is greater.

No, the reward here is much more long term. In this game, especially as you move up later, you need to think more short term. It might be different if that city was closer and not adjacent to Shaka. Plus I would probably split a city like that into two - it will be extremely unhealthy.

I admit though that you are a bit tight on spots outside the cap with minimal food at this point, and not yet revealing strat resources.

With Shaka that close I would probably seriously consider rushing him. It's not how I would generally like one to approach their first learner game, instead focusing on empire building, but the bottom line is that he is always going to be a pain with that proximity.

 

[Dubioza]

Looked at screens again; yes in AS' case gold city is logical 2nd city, but closer with fewer FP's - like you guys said, split it into few cities. After revealing some strategy resources that might change tho, but I wouldn't chase copper 15 tiles away for a 2nd city. Best would be to settle food resources first, especially after you met & decided to delete Shaka so when you do get unit of your choice you can create them much faster.

It's easy to be a general after the battle, now I see 1E of current capitol might be better, so you can put one city a bit west, s-w to share one of those clams and/or corn (sharing corn is still possible) - cause food around the capitol isn't that great. He is somewhat further then most would like for 1-move units rush; so horses a bit closer wouldn't hurt, but as shown it can still be done fast enough.

 

[AspiringScholar]

I think your 4 gold site is a bad idea for a few reasons. Proximity to Shaka is unimportant if you plan to take him out, but if you do want war then your 2nd city is going to be determined based on strat resources. You will have plenty of time to cottage flood plains after Shaka is crushed.

Secondly, you will have a really hard time working all those gold with just flood plains for food, especially considering the pollution factor. That area is best split between 2 cities at least. I will be farming flood plains a bit as well, at least until I have enough growth to work the mines and switch over to cottages.

Finally, play a few turns and see where Shaka settles.

Spoiler :

Might not be worth agonizing over this too much.

Settling two cities there does seem like a better idea. Is health from floodplains only from those that you are working, or all that are within the BFC? If the latter is the case, then I renounce my idea of settling there right away to be good at all (I thought it was only the FPs that you were working that would cause unhealthiness).

No, the reward here is much more long term. In this game, especially as you move up later, you need to think more short term. It might be different if that city was closer and not adjacent to Shaka. Plus I would probably split a city like that into two - it will be extremely unhealthy.

Ah, so as a rule of thumb short term gains are generally stronger in the early game, then? I thought it was quite the contrary; seeing the early game as sort of an 'investment' for the later game, where most of your effort is devoted to horizontal expansion to a level that is really harmful in the immediate sense due to rampant city maintenance. (Of course, that's only one mentality, and I've seen successful games that focus on immediate vertical expansion, not that that's what you're suggesting though.)

Point taken on the splitting that site up. I hadn't taken into consideration how crippling that unhealthiness would be, combined with the fact that it's too close to Shaka and too far from my capital.

I admit though that you are a bit tight on spots outside the cap with minimal food at this point, and not yet revealing strat resources.

With Shaka that close I would probably seriously consider rushing him. It's not how I would generally like one to approach their first learner game, instead focusing on empire building, but the bottom line is that he is always going to be a pain with that proximity.

Yes, although if I go for a rush it might be a good idea to tech AH next to reveal horses on the map, and see if there is a realistic location where I could get horses. In the meantime, for basic production (regardless of getting horses, which would be nice) that spot along the river to the west of my capital looks like a feasible, close location that would yield lots of hammers. If I settle on the plains tile just south of the marble hill, that gives me two riverside grass tiles that I could farm to give me the ability to work those two grass hills to the west without a food deficit, not to mention the marble itself and a couple of other hills.

The wine plains hill location is also a good idea, with access to five FPs, and getting another happiness resource secured (not to mention blocking off Shaka, and giving us closer striking distance for a rush, if we go that route).

Among those two choices, which would you say is a more feasible second city location (or perhaps something else entirely)?