A Learning Game (Help me with Monarch)

[lymond]

I would not worry too much about Qin right now other than making nice. Once you eliminate Shaka, Qin won't be much for tech trading as yall are semi-iso at that point, unless you get him to Friendly. Might be possible. However, the foreign trade routes will be important to your economy, so he will be nice for that as well.

I often will pump out a quick WB and set it to auto-explore. They may great scouts and they open up coastal waterways for trade routes after you get sailing.

Yep, as someone mentioned above, I think the PH next to the horses is ok (unless there are other horses I'm missing here - only looking haphazardly at the screenies). Not a great early city but it's all about the horses. that city will be surprisingly decent production late game and does grab a couple of resources, but for now it's all about horses.

So get your settler. You will want a couple more workers for roads and choppage.

(on your reports: I might suggest separating your screens into different spoilers with a short caption or blurb about it. We don't need a lot of details and we can figure out what is going on. At the end you might briefly summarize your thought process and what you think you might want to do next....so we can then point out why your are wrong )

 

[lymond]

Also, note that after writing you will probably head to Alpha at this level and then Currency. As you start building up for war and getting your first library, you will probably want to run 0% research for a while and build up your bank since the army and taking those cities will be a hit on the economy.

Ofc, the most important thing are Immortals right now more than anything.

 

[AspiringScholar]

Okay, I'll try to make these a little shorter and more concise (and I wasn't sure about adding captions to the screenshots). Since you recommend that I don't include so much detail and that I summarize my thoughts at the end, do you think writing in real time is a bad idea, then? (Maybe it doesn't matter.)

As you start building up for war and getting your first library, you will probably want to run ...

Are you suggesting that I build a library before I rush Shaka? Do you think that would be a good idea?

Something that I'm unsure about with rushing is balancing the amount of units and the time in which you can have them ready. Obviously, if you invest more time in it, you'll have much more units, but your opponent will be much more build up and harder to take, but if you don't build enough, even when the earlier you strike the weaker your target will be, it would be a disaster. How do you balance that? What kind of a time/size of force ratio is needed typically?

Notwithstanding, going settler next and then two more workers is a good idea? (So don't grow the happy cap first?)

EDIT: "To the happy cap first"

 

[Dubioza]

• Scouting: Going circular yes, 2nd lap not so much - you could scout Shaka even before BW, you'd have scouted more land around him - you'd see copper after BW anyways without risking him settle so that you can't properly scout him out.
• Build Queue: Again, sorry for misguide; you could've switch back to worker after you got more advices immediately, loosing only couple worker turns and have corn improved before BW came.
• Slavery: In my eyes that is good idea: you don't have yet enough pop to whip anyways, I usually switch when settler is on his way to location or rarely to whip him.
• Settling around copper: I have no idea LOL All options seem too far to me, at least for 2nd city.
• Chopping out 2nd warrior: I'd slow-build warrior and put chop into wb or another worker.
• Horses: there is option to settle horses with horses in 1st ring and with food resource in BFC, altho later one. Main thing is horses would be accessible immediately and can serve well for "the plan" & build units almost as good as cap.

I'm sure advanced players have more things to say & edit mine, so wait a bit before jumping again

Edit:

• Settler&worker on size 5 sounds good, but with 5-4-4 food tiles settler can be as fast or faster if started on size 3.

Just my thoughts.

 

[lymond]

(Maybe it doesn't matter

this. again you are over thinking things. No think...Just do Really, just do what works best for you. Oh...I meant to say keep the captions/blurbs outside the spoilers. Just use the spoilers for the images.

Are you suggesting that I build a library before I rush Shaka? Do you think that would be a good idea?

No not really, unless you whip it in later. Most important thing is units if you are going to chariot rush.

Balance your growth with your improvements and happy cap, and chops. You might want to grow to the next pop after the settler at least if means more production from a mine or something. Also, you can 2pop whip a worker as well later. Basically just meant that you are going to need more than 1 or 2 workers to get this thing moving. You got improvements, chops and roads to build.

One thing to think about it taking bites out of Shaka. Get a few immortals...say 5 or 6...and you might surprise attack him with a city of 1 or 2 archers, but keep the reinforcements coming. You can always take ceasefires too to curb his unit spam.

 

[lymond]

Settler in transit is a good time to switch into Slavery if you have not yet done so.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Chariot rushes are bad news... chariots are just too ineffective against cities unless you have immortals or warchas. However, building a few to harrass Shaka and choke him is a grand idea -- steal his starting worker, pillage all that you can, and post them in places they can't be attacked directly from the city but can still strike wandering archers or any settlering attempts. Four chariots will do the task easy. Keeping Shaka's size down reaally nerfs him... all his traits are aimed at maxing him as huge monsterous bully.

 

[AspiringScholar]

this. again you are over thinking things. No think...Just do Really, just do what works best for you. Oh...I meant to say keep the captions/blurbs outside the spoilers. Just use the spoilers for the images.



No not really, unless you whip it in later. Most important thing is units if you are going to chariot rush.

Balance your growth with your improvements and happy cap, and chops. You might want to grow to the next pop after the settler at least if means more production from a mine or something. Also, you can 2pop whip a worker as well later. Basically just meant that you are going to need more than 1 or 2 workers to get this thing moving. You got improvements, chops and roads to build.

One thing to think about it taking bites out of Shaka. Get a few immortals...say 5 or 6...and you might surprise attack him with a city of 1 or 2 archers, but keep the reinforcements coming. You can always take ceasefires too to curb his unit spam.

Settler in transit is a good time to switch into Slavery if you have not yet done so.

Okay, I'm sorry and once again, that tendency is something that I have a difficult time ridding myself of. You'll just have to forgive me for it/ignore it!

Yeah, I think that's a good idea with the growth after the settler/switching to slavery while the settler is on its way (never really thought of this idea before).

Another question is do I wait before building my workers to grow to pop 5? I know you suggested whipping (and that's probably a good idea) but what about building a barracks while I wait for my city to grow up to its happy cap working (1 corn, 2 clams, 2 grass mines), then don't whip the workers, chopping them instead, and when this is finished, I'll have the horses hooked up and can start spamming immortals. This would give me 7 hammers a turn before chops and whips (the latter obviously reducing that number).

Also, I do have quite a lot of food, so I'm not sure if straight whipping those workers out right away is a better idea... Like you said, I do have a lot of roads and improvements/chops to do very soon if I want this rush to succeed.

I do like the 'taking bites' idea, but do you think if I don't punch hard enough on the first blow he might build up too strong to conquer without siege? But it does also make a lot of sense in that taking a city that has a garrison of 1 or 2 archers immediately would knock him down enough to make the subsequent blow easier to execute. When it really gets down to the numbers, though, it's hard to make these decisions.

 

[Ghpstage]

chariots are just too ineffective against cities unless you have immortals or warchas.

Standard chariots are actually very effective rush units, being 2 move they can choose when they fight more easily, pillage more easily and will face fewer defenders than Axes would. They can also usually take out the capital or another vital city on turn 1 of the war effectively crippling it.

 

[Dubioza]

Because you have alot of food whipping IS a good idea, you'd regrow back sooner; then slowbuild workers/settlers when waiting for whip-unhappiness to pass.

Don't be afraid to switch queue half way, use shift & ctrl to put units in front or down in queue.

Build 3rd wb or 3rd warrior and build worker only with chops if you wanna grow, switching wb's or warriors back & forth.

Edit: You need more workers asap, everyone always needs more workers! There are always things to do, they speed up the game considerably!

 

[AspiringScholar]

Chariot rushes are bad news... chariots are just too ineffective against cities unless you have immortals or warchas. However, building a few to harrass Shaka and choke him is a grand idea -- steal his starting worker, pillage all that you can, and post them in places they can't be attacked directly from the city but can still strike wandering archers or any settlering attempts. Four chariots will do the task easy. Keeping Shaka's size down reaally nerfs him... all his traits are aimed at maxing him as huge monsterous bully.

Essentially my UU is a chariot replacement, but with the bonus vs. archers, don't you think they could be useful for more than just pillaging, seeing as how Shaka doesn't have any strategic resources and thus will surely almost entirely build archers?

Standard chariots are actually very effective rush units, being 2 move they can choose when they fight more easily, pillage more easily and will face fewer defenders than Axes would. They can also usually take out the capital or another vital city on turn 1 of the war effectively crippling it.

I agree with you here, but Capnvonbaron (and Lymond) make a good point in that a smaller harassment force would be effective (IMHO) but the question is do I do both with the immortal? If I'm going to need to heal up economically and grab more land right after this, it might also not be such a great idea to destroy all of the improvements in Shaka's capital.

 

[Ghpstage]

I agree with you here, but Capnvonbaron (and Lymond) make a good point in that a smaller harassment force would be effective (IMHO) but the question is do I do both with the immortal?

I was just protesting an unfair rip on chariot rushes in general, not specifically commenting on this game .

Also Lymond and capn are talking about different things. I think the jist of Lymond's comment is for taking cities and letting up and taking peace temporarily if you find yourself lacking the force to continue, while capn is talking about pillaging and delaying for stronger units.
I agree with Lymond on this.

 

[AspiringScholar]

I was just protesting an unfair rip on chariot rushes in general, not specifically commenting on this game .

Also Lymond and capn are talking about different things. I think the jist of Lymond's comment is for taking cities and letting up and taking peace temporarily if you find yourself lacking the force to continue, while capn is talking about pillaging and delaying for stronger units.
I agree with Lymond on this.

Ah, I see.

Yeah, I might have to go with Lymond on this one, if not only because I'm going to need to keep his improvements so that I can focus my development onto settling other cities and improving their tiles.

 

[JBossch]

I would skip a 3rd worker and tech sailing

 

[Darkscis]

I won't spoiler this because I think it's pertinent to the OP's current situation in deciding his 2nd city spot.

Whilst I agree that normally you wouldn't want to settle a 2nd city so far from the cap, if you take a look at my game it actually achieves more than hooking up copper. For one, it can work rice, copper and a PH at size 3 for a respectable 10 hammers/turn meaning it does help produce units. It also has 2 forests for chopping.

Second, it actually starts to form a wall to block Qin from expanding to the east if coupled with another city near the silk/cows on that river somewhere. It looks like the valuable land extends further north along that river, you can definitely see some FP's lurking under the fog. Seeing as we don't yet know how much land Qin has the threat of him coming across is very real.

Spoiler :

Especially as you can see in my final screenshot that he has indeed settled towards the east - obviously I did not know this when I initially settled though.

Third, if planned correctly the road all the way to that site can be finished the turn the settler finishes, and the very next turn the settler is in place ready to settle, its not like its a 5 or 6 turn journey out there.

Maybe this thought process is due to me always playing Monarch where I know I can afford to settle cities that far, coupled with my extreme hatred for Shaka in my games I just happen to think that for this particular game, the decision was worth it regardless of whether it's the "norm" or not.

 

[AspiringScholar]

I would skip a 3rd worker and tech sailing

Really? For a lighthouse instead of the 3rd worker? That extra food will certainly be useful (in fact more so than the hammers received through chopping with that worker, as I can whip extensively).

Although if my warrior dies from all of those animals, I'll have to build another one before I can even think of roading to that spot or even getting a settler out there.

Because you have alot of food whipping IS a good idea, you'd regrow back sooner; then slowbuild workers/settlers when waiting for whip-unhappiness to pass.

Don't be afraid to switch queue half way, use shift & ctrl to put units in front or down in queue.

Build 3rd wb or 3rd warrior and build worker only with chops if you wanna grow, switching wb's or warriors back & forth.

Edit: You need more workers asap, everyone always needs more workers! There are always things to do, they speed up the game considerably!

Ah, but if I slow build workers and settlers after whipping, the city wouldn't regrow from the population lost from whipping, or is that the idea?

I won't spoiler this because I think it's pertinent to the OP's current situation in deciding his 2nd city spot.

Whilst I agree that normally you wouldn't want to settle a 2nd city so far from the cap, if you take a look at my game it actually achieves more than hooking up copper. For one, it can work rice, copper and a PH at size 3 for a respectable 10 hammers/turn meaning it does help produce units. It also has 2 forests for chopping.

Second, it actually starts to form a wall to block Qin from expanding to the east if coupled with another city near the silk/cows on that river somewhere. It looks like the valuable land extends further north along that river, you can definitely see some FP's lurking under the fog. Seeing as we don't yet know how much land Qin has the threat of him coming across is very real.

Spoiler :

Especially as you can see in my final screenshot that he has indeed settled towards the east - obviously I did not know this when I initially settled though.

Third, if planned correctly the road all the way to that site can be finished the turn the settler finishes, and the very next turn the settler is in place ready to settle, its not like its a 5 or 6 turn journey out there.

Maybe this thought process is due to me always playing Monarch where I know I can afford to settle cities that far, coupled with my extreme hatred for Shaka in my games I just happen to think that for this particular game, the decision was worth it regardless of whether it's the "norm" or not.

Hmm, securing the copper? I thought we were settling for horses in the plains hill directly to the northeast (as I think the plan is an immortal rush).

So, my build order needs to look like: Work Boat (1 finishing) ---> Warrior (3) ---> Settler ---> (10) ---> (6) With those build times under the current yield. Should I build the worker or the settler first?

 

[JBossch]

Really? For a lighthouse instead of the 3rd worker?

Nope, for connecting horses to your trade network via river.

 

[AspiringScholar]

Nope, for connecting horses to your trade network via river.

Oh, yes! I forgot that could be done. Although, wasn't it also suggested to build a road to that site anyway to 'launch' the settler there? Should my workers be invested elsewhere?

 

[Darkscis]

Hmm, securing the copper? I thought we were settling for horses in the plains hill directly to the northeast (as I think the plan is an immortal rush).

Just presenting you with another option to think about My play through went this path which you will be able to read once you get past it. I stopped at turn 53 so once you pass that feel free to take a look and see what I did different to everyone else. I quite extensively listed what I did. If you also check the spoilered chat between myself and JBossch you will see our discussion on the copper versus horse thing. The basic premise was that seeing as we had already tech'd BW and seen there was copper, teching AH for horses was a not necessary gamble if you prefer to go for the "sure thing" (copper in this case).

 

[JBossch]

Oh, yes! I forgot that could be done. Although, wasn't it also suggested to build a road to that site anyway to 'launch' the settler there? Should my workers be invested elsewhere?

Just depends what works best given your current situation. I always like to save worker turns where possible. Roading just to speed up the settler is meh. He is a 2-mover anyway. You still need some worker turns to improve the horse and a couple roads of course, but they can otherwise pre-chop forests maybe. Mainly depends whether you can afford the research.