A lesson in honesty: A WAY TO MAKE YOUR CIV4 EXPERIENCE MORE FUN

[Memphus]

Hi This is a little bit of a story but at the same time it really emphasizes the message:

originally posted by ainwood

Please note that some people believe that reloading (in particular) isn't serious cheating. We, however, consider it to be and have zero tolerance on it. Please also be aware that if you do it, we can detect it, and we will act on it.

This was me when I was playing Civ2 GOTM, civ 3 GOTM and civ 3 COTM
I would download the save and use some of these tactics
1. explorer the whole map to find goodie huts
then restart making the best search pattern to get all of if not most of them
2. save before poping a hut if it sucked (i.e. barbarians, man even gold..pretty much anything but a tech) reload and wait until the next turn to pop it.
3. Find out if/how many opponents there are and restart accordingly
4. read spoilers then beggin playing
5. if i started a wonder it got built before me, go back to before i started it
6. go to war, get 3-4 units outside a city, save, attack ==> win cool, lose reload wait until next turn to attack (believe me this is really tedious)
7. the list goes on and on

Basically it was the saving reloading strategy but taken to the utmost extent.

And here is the lesson:

I would never submit a game because I clearly broke umpteen rules.
However I was content to look at the board of scores afterwards and go hmmm Look I would have been 5th, 10th, once I was even first ...

BUT was I really first NO not even close it is really and when you think about it.

I never saw the thrill of not playing this way I mean why would losing be fun?

However with CIV4 I figured lets try to play the game the honest way
---WOW talk about an entirely different experience
--so many game play aspects had to be modified...there is too many to list

Was losing fun..no not at all it even made me ask, why did I play this way again?

Until I realized where the fun came from, the winning is so much more sweet when you do win. I am sure all of the creative posters out here could write a poem or come up with quotes of the experience the first time you HONESTLY won a game.


Moral: Play fair: Lose a game, you make a mistake you get and then that is how you get better and the real fun comes in

I have just finished my first civ4 GOTM (not gonna say how I did no spoiler here)

And with the exception of the one thing I posted here on the exploit/micromanage on which the jury is still out

I will be very proud to submit my first game, even if I end up last on the chart

edit: Modified title, as Thread is taking on new shape

 

[remconius]

I know exactly what you mean.

For civ3 COTMs I did the same thing. Ended up only submitting one. I did learn a lot from SirPleb and other good players, though.

This time I played it through without reloads. It is a very different experience. I have to restrain myself, but let out a few swears and vow to make improvements next time around.

Some examples from other games:

You get a scout from a hut, then lose it to barbarians, too bad. Lesson learnt!

Barbarian Archer runs upto my city with only a warrior as defense. You pray you dont lose it and if you do, you got to take it back. Another lesson leant!

When waging war I tend to forget defense in the back of my nation. The AI in civ4 sails round with galleys and lands on your key resources. Or barbarians hits you from behind. Big lesson learnt!

These lesson are much more powerful if you dont reload and they make you a better player. And the experience is nail-biting and more realistic.

 

[MerakSpielman]

the experience is nail-biting...

You can say that twice.

Most games I feel free to reload and try things again. This was the first GOTM I've ever played, though, and I played it straight through in one sitting. It was harrowing. I paid much more attention to defense and maintaining a standing army than I usually do. I was constantly afraid that somebody would sweep in and grab a city if I left a weak point. The knowledge that I could only play once, and that I couldnt' reload or just start a new game if I started doing poorly, was hanging over me the whole time.

 

[Offa]

I think honesty is crucial to GOTM, and playing fairly is definitely more fun. I still get a warm glow thinking about playing on after a flip taking out almost my entire cavalry, or accepting communism from TOE after a misclick etc.

I also remember a couple of games in which I tried a "tiny" reload early on, after disorder in the capital or something; it didn't really count, I tried to delude myself, but of course it did, and 5 minutes later I quit the games, annoyed with myself for wasting another chance at GOTM glory. How could I ever look the other players in their virtual eyes again. My inner smugness at being a fair player is more important than winning an imaginary award, although it would have been nice.

I reckon cheating would be pretty easy for a good player with a 4000bc reload, or a read through the spoilers, even without resorting to really slimy tactics or exploits during the game.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Now you see, I have NO problem whatsoever with reloading a game when I am just playing for myself (i.e. after this GOTM is done, I may actually replay it for myself and-in that case-will happily reload games if things are going especially bad). I also have no problem reloading earlier, GOTM saves in order to confirm my moves for the purposes of writing up. When it comes to the game I hand in, though, it will be the result of a continuous play-through as, for me, anything less would not be a true indication of my abilities. Also, though, I feel less inclined to reload ANY of my civ4 games because-unlike civ3-I never truly feel like the computer is cheating. Last night is a 'case in point'-without revealing details, something happened in the GOTM which-had it happened in a standard Civ3 game-I probably would have reloaded or given up. With this game I see it just as a HUGE challenge (and quite exciting). It is wierd how this iteration of the game has changed my outlook on things.
Anyway, hope that all makes sense.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[rabies]

Congratulations on your discovery.

Playing without reloading does make the game much more of a rollercoaster ride....and certainly does make some of those critical 50-50 odd unit battles, that are critical to something greater (last defender/attacker on a city, etc), the most nail-biting experiences. I have literally jumped out of my chair hooting and hollering when a key battle is barely won. Likewise, i have slumped in my chair thinking..'now what do I do?' when I am on the flip side of the dice roll.

..and you certainly learn from your mistakes (minor or major) when you play without reloading...and you also certainly learn to take your time to ensure you didn't screw up somewhere....

 

[Renata]

Like most contests, the GOTM can survive a tiny little bit of undetected cheating and dishonesty. But it can't survive a lot. So thanks to all of you who play honestly every turn, from start to finish come what may, for helping to maintain the integrity of the competition.

 

[MikeH]

I was always pretty strict with myself in single player games, unless it was a specific test type game to try something out, but I would always reload from stupid mistakes, like accidently moving my settler towards a barb rather than away from it, or misclicking and givng a tech away rather than trading it. When I started playing Civ 3 GOTMs, which forbid even these reloads, I found I enjoyed it more that way and now do the same in single player. Nothing like still managing to win despite stupidly losing your first settler .

 

[juballs2001]

i totally agree... this is why i do this.


1) save the civ GOTM file... and make all saves after that rewrite over that save.
so i press enter... something happens, and i save over the file.

that way i cant reload unless i am willing to go back and re download the file

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I would do that too Juballs but, as I said, when I get VERY carried away and play for ages, I might forget all the things I did which got me to that point-which is a real pain for someone like me who wants to document his journey properly. So those saved games can be a good way to go back and rehash what I did in earlier turns and-possibly more importantly-get those all important screenshots I might have forgotten to take first time out.
Found out that this approach doesn't always work-however-when a tribal village that only gave me money in my REAL game gave me a technology in my 'rehash'. Damn that was annoying, as it meant that it wasn't reliable as a 'rehash' (though it did tell me about WHERE the village was and WHEN I 'popped' it!)

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

yeah, a mistake having concequences i think is what makes the real difference.

I played the game DiabloII in the past, this game had a so called hard-core mode. In this mode, when your character died (RPG game) you had to start all over again from scratch and you lost 100's hours of work. That is what kept the game intresting.

The game also does not have a save option, when you end the game it will automatically save. When you start again, it will load that last save. This even worked when you exited the game with ALT+F4 or when your PC locked up.

This is a very good system and i would like to see it in every game. Not only does it make it much easier for you not to cheat, it also makes it much easier for you not to forget making a save before you leave your PC in a hurry or if your PC has a techical failure.

 

[deadloss]

Yeah, you're absolutely right Memphus!

I played Civ and Civ2 in the ways you mentioned:
save, pop goody hut ---> save and continue if good return
---> reload and try again if bad return

I didn't know any better. I wasn't shown how to play the game.
I picked it up and discovered that goody huts changed every time you tried them. My way of thinking at the time was:
"Hey, the AI has so many (unfair) advantages that it's only fair, isn't it?"

But, after entering this wonderful community it soon made me realise that there was another way and this one (that I was using) wasn't acceptable.

Without spoiling the thread (hopefully), I just want to say that I only made it to 1AD and lost (with a score of 0) so I doubt you will be last, Memphus!

However, I realised during play early on (but too late) that I'd made a fundamental error that had caused me to do so badly.

On playing the game a second time, and making that correction, I can see that I have played a hundred times better and have a really strong Roman empire now.

However, that is the SECOND time I have played it.

It is a totally different game when EVERY decision you make is EXTREMELY important.

I love it! I love the stress of making sure you get it right, first time, every time! I just wish I was a better player...

 

[Memphus]

@ deadloss

Well you never know... like I said no spoiler good or bad about my game

@ anyone more experienced than me I was wondering about what deadloss did replaying the same GOTM but submitting his first honest attempt, I was under the impression of not playing it a second time until the submission deadline had passed. But if not I really want to try it again

 

[Peepers]

Way to go, Memphus! Thanks for starting this thread.

It seems to me that it is less important to stress 'honest play' for the competition of the 4toM than for the actual benefits to each player's experience. Hopefully as more people pick up and play this new edition of Civ (which admirably minimizes those OOPS moments such as city unrest, over/underspending and scout jeopardy), they will discover the real enjoyment of the risks and glory of how their story unfolds. I just finished this first 4otM, and I must say that it was as big a thrill as my best 3otM. And all the more so because I just accepted the risks and outcomes as they came, which I admit I don't always do.

 

[deadloss]

@ deadloss

Well you never know... like I said no spoiler good or bad about my game

@ anyone more experienced than me I was wondering about what deadloss did replaying the same GOTM but submitting his first honest attempt, I was under the impression of not playing it a second time until the submission deadline had passed. But if not I really want to try it again

What I generally do is finish the game, submit the save, move all the game files to a safe folder (away from the normal save area) and try again.

I figure from this that I learn how it should have been done. However, that said - I never generally had time to play the replay to the full as both the COTM and the GOTM took up most of my spare time each month.

But as a trend, I guess I tend to play more aggressively in the re-attempt.

And...I usually felt as though it was worth another attempt after doing so terribly the first time (if I had done badly). It's funny how I think that EVERY month lately...

 

[AlanH]

@ anyone more experienced than me I was wondering about what deadloss did replaying the same GOTM but submitting his first honest attempt, I was under the impression of not playing it a second time until the submission deadline had passed. But if not I really want to try it again

I see no reason why you shouldn't replay at any time you want *after* you've submitted your first attempt. The only way that could have any impact on the game in progress would be if you spill any beans to other players. You should, of course, honour the spoiler rules however many times you've played it.

 

[Amao]

My first try to GTOM, too.

When my soldier dead in the battle, it's really hard for me not to hit the Ctrl-L to start with. However, it's also really enjoyable to see that when i was thinking it would be a total disaster the next turn, and the stupid AI made several key mistakes which allow me to reorganize my army, then turned the tide of battle the other way and won it.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I know I did something like this in Civ3:Conquests (COTM). In the game as England (Emporer), I was quickly killed off by a swarm of Germans . So, I went and announced my loss to the COTM thread, went back, and tried to see if I could play the game a little more effectively-without any pressure given that I was already out of contention!
Hope that helps.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[pkrcel]

Tha's definitely my case, just used to reload when things came to disorder o did disappoint me.

That's WHY I literally SUCK in this game, reloading doing things only whne the result is satisfing OR to correct your mistakes does NOT make you any better at the game.....really.

And my first games at C-III where fashioned this way too, but I discovered that I did SUCK anyway...I was not able to get a head in the game EVEN this way.

I did not focus on mechanics, I did not focus on strategies and management, I was only off to get the "best" result from any move.

I just can say this was useless way to game.

I tried a different approach with C-IV, and that's why I participated in this GOTM-01 also, to find myself FORCED to play a fair game since there is competition....friendly but stll competition.

Well, I did fairly bad IMO in this GOTM, but I am still satisfied to what I was able to do, and it did teach me some aspects of the game I wasn't aware of (at leatst not FULLY aware)
Hopefully NOW I am a little better at (at least!) understanding game mechanics....

When I will get back home I will finally submit my files, nicely showing in the lower (or -est) part of the chart.

 

[bio_hazard]

I too don't really see any point in cheating in the GOTM. I'm happy to submit losing games- helping to fight the 'reporting bias' that only people who kicked ass tend to upload their results...

I'm relatively new to the Civ3 GOTM, but found the gotm community to be really helpful in trouble shooting my own play. So if you suck (like me), use the spoilers as a friendly learning forum. Not only do you get to see great players eloquently break down their games, but they are often willing to respond to the "the persians defeated me in 2000bc, what did I do wrong" kinds of questions. I've even had people look at my saved games...

Any word if we are going to get a 'Hunting tips' or whatever the special threads that appeared periodically in Civ3gotm specifically for helping newbies? I can see how it might be hard right away when we are beginners, but I'd put in a vote to make that a regular feature as soon as it makes sense.

edit- @wackedopenair- your diabloII hard core situation reminds me of an old text-based graphics game called Angband. Die, and you've lost a bazillion hours of work. However, if you found a special monster you could save right before you were about to kill it and keep force-quitting/reloading the game until the monster spewed a good magical item for your character.