A lesson in honesty: A WAY TO MAKE YOUR CIV4 EXPERIENCE MORE FUN

[SwedishChef]

Hmm, I think people here are all net-savvy and know how to find things they need. Things like, say the starting save...
The results will be published on the gotm-site I suggest people having a look round while they are there.

I guess, to me, it's a question of, "What problem are we, er... you, trying to solve?"

I think the "net-savvy," and "conscientious," and "detail-oriented" people are probably going to track down the rules.

But a few things led me to make the suggestion.

1. I heard that the Civ4 GotM1 has more NEW submitters than the total number of submitters in any previous GotM. I can neither confirm nor deny this, it's just what I read.

2. After this thread was started, several good-hearted people said, "Crap! I didn't know. I'm sorry. Disqualify me if need be!" These people are presumably neither evil nor stupid, yet they had not read the rules.

3. I had previously read the rules and submitted a Civ3 Conquests GotM. Yet when I went to submit this one, despite being "net-savvy," I went to the "Game Release Page," clicked on "Submit GOTM" on the left hand column, and ended up at the Civ3 submission page - which is just called "GOTM and Medal Play Submission Form." No mention of Civ3.

I presumed it had been modified to accept Civ4 games and had several failed submissions. It took some time to find the other page we were supposed to use.

That's not a criticism of your web site design. It's just evidence that anybody, well at least I can make mistakes, despite (or perhaps because of) the huge amount of useful information and opportunities provided here.

If there is a problem - and you would know better than I - with people submitting saves within which they broke the rules, then I'd say one way to solve part of that problem is with a friendly email like I described. "Thanks! By the way, sadly we had 15% of entries disqualified. We know you weren't trying to cheat, you probably haven't read the rules. Here they are..." Followed by at least a summary of the rules - not an attachment or link.

I'd agree that my "solution" doesn't address all problems. Not by a long shot. But if there's a problem with new people not "doing their homework," in their enthusiasm for Civ4, then maybe it might help.

But I acknowledge it's your site, and your choice to make. I enjoy the site, by the way. It's been very helpful. And I look forward to future GotMs.

 

[EMan]

@AlanH, ainwood & Denniz: Thanks for the feedback on the GOTM Civ 4 rivals.

Yes, it was a "hole" in Civ 3.....perhaps they figured most people would be specifying the rivals pre-game, so it wouldn't matter?

Anyways, it does make it more of a challenge not to know the rivals........However, unlike some of the Top Players, I'm not into "Handicapping Myself"..........GOTM is plenty tough enough for me at "Open" level!.....especially recently!

So, just wanted to make sure the "Rivals Info" wasn't "legally" available somewhere.

 

[a space oddity]

I'd agree that my "solution" doesn't address all problems. Not by a long shot. But if there's a problem with new people not "doing their homework," in their enthusiasm for Civ4, then maybe it might help.

I hope you don't feel patronized by my reaction, but I'd like to stress that it's the responsablility of the player to know the rules before entering the competition. There's also stickied thread in this forum explaining them.

Like you already know we have a *lot* of entries (which is a "good thing"TM in itself ) keeping us busy enough as it is without having to sent extra emails "just in case" people are not aware of the rules. As AlanH said people who don't stick to them will be notified on an individual basis.

 

[LeSphinx]

As I read this threat I'm a little surprise people haven't read the rules of the competition.
for the load/reloading problem, GOTM staff have tools in order to check this parameters for CIV3. I hope this tool will be also alvailable for CIV 4, isn't it ?

LeSphinx

 

[astute1]

I'm just kind of curious - how do you check for reloading? I mean, what's different about a game file with a reload where you cheated from one where you saved before bed and started playing the next day after work? Are we supposed to play though in one sitting without saving/reloading even for work/sleep/etc?

That said, I messed up and quit without saving - I reloaded the autosave, which was on the last turn, saved and quit. That was my savegame submission. If that's wrong, you should disqualify me.

 

[Dianthus]

for the load/reloading problem, GOTM staff have tools in order to check this parameters for CIV3. I hope this tool will be also alvailable for CIV 4, isn't it ?

It is. Both the GOTM/HOF staff have the same tools...

 

[AlanH]

@LeSphinx: I hope you meant "thread" Sure we have similar tools. The last couple of months since Civ4 was released have been a fairly intensive effort to develop them. And wouldn't it be nice not to have to use them?

@SwedishChef: Please review this post, where the game was announced and indicate how the rules could have been made any clearer for new players. The fact is that a lot of people simply don't read stuff. We could plaster it all over our signatures, our web pages and our posts, and it would still be ignored.

I posted the new player statistic, and it's true. We have over 350 submissions for C-IV GOTM 01. More than 250 of those players have never played a GOTM before. The highest submissions for any previous GOTM were 240-ish. We have to accept that with lots of new players we'll have lots of education to do.

Yes, if you reach the Civ3 submission page you may have found it difficult to track down the Civ4 one early on. However, the key pages now offer links on the right hand side for Civ4 GOTM, and I'll try to enhance the pages and the error messages to give better clues ... when I get time. A relatively small number of players have notified us of any problems with the submission process, but my apologies to anyone who did have trouble.

 

[MeteorPunch]

Yes, if you reach the Civ3 submission page you may have found it difficult to track down the Civ4 one early on. However, the key pages now offer links on the right hand side for Civ4 GOTM, and I'll try to enhance the pages and the error messages to give better clues ... when I get time. A relatively small number of players have notified us of any problems with the submission process, but my apologies to anyone who did have trouble.

I think the layout is a problem. On a 800x600 screen the Civ 4 section is offscreen to the right. I didn't notice it at all.

 

[AlanH]

Uhuh! If 800 x 600 is still widely used I'd better cut down drastically on the information per screen Can you play Civ4 in 800 x 600?

 

[Dianthus]

I think Civ requires 1024x768. I'm assuming 1024x768 or higher for the HOF site.

 

[MeteorPunch]

Uhuh! If 800 x 600 is still widely used I'd better cut down drastically on the information per screen Can you play Civ4 in 800 x 600?

I'm using a different computer to play civ 4...the lowest resolution setting is 1024x768. So this might not be a problem then, but it happened to me.

 

[LeSphinx]

350 submission for the first C-IV GOTM !!!
Well it's great! I'm realy impressed!
Thanks to all the good job the GOTM staff have done since a long time now...

I'm looking foward to see the result!

LeSphinx

 

[AlanH]

350 submission for the first C-IV GOTM !!!

Actually I said "Over 350". We are at 386 and counting ...

 

[Methos]

Actually I said "Over 350". We are at 386 and counting ...

Hopefully one more...

 

[Renata]

As I read this threat I'm a little surprise people haven't read the rules of the competition.
for the load/reloading problem, GOTM staff have tools in order to check this parameters for CIV3. I hope this tool will be also alvailable for CIV 4, isn't it ?

LeSphinx

We have better tools already for CivIV than for CivIII, and the potential is there for even better to be developed. Our goal is to be able to tell what flavor of Juicy Juice you were drinking while you played.

I'm just kind of curious - how do you check for reloading? I mean, what's different about a game file with a reload where you cheated from one where you saved before bed and started playing the next day after work? Are we supposed to play though in one sitting without saving/reloading even for work/sleep/etc?

Excessively high numbers of reloads (suggesting a player who compulsively replays after making a mistake or after getting an undesired RNG roll); many reloads within a short number of turns during wars (suggesting a player who replays unsuccessful battles over and over again until he likes the result); a few other less common things.

Of course you're not expected to play through in one sitting. We're not out to make honest players' lives difficult. Play naturally and honestly, and you will almost certainly trigger no warning bells. The reload rule means one thing and one thing only, and it's very simple. Don't ever reload in order to change a game action or decision. Live with your mistakes as well as your moments of inspiration. You're sculpting in marble here rather than clay -- if you chip off your Athena's arm, you'll have to make the best of her being armless.

That said, I messed up and quit without saving - I reloaded the autosave, which was on the last turn, saved and quit. That was my savegame submission. If that's wrong, you should disqualify me.

Did you change anything within the game by reloading the autosave to finish the game? No, so it's essentially the same thing as reloading from a crash, which is explicitly permitted by the rules. No worries.

 

[SwedishChef]

@SwedishChef: Please review this post, where the game was announced and indicate how the rules could have been made any clearer for new players. The fact is that a lot of people simply don't read stuff. We could plaster it all over our signatures, our web pages and our posts, and it would still be ignored.

I hesitate to reply, since I don't really want to continue this as "a conflict." It was just a suggestion - and as I said, you have more experience running a site like this than I do. I am not at all offended that you might well decide not to take the suggestion.

But since you asked, I will try to explain honestly (and politely! )

I think you have a great challenge because, like many web sites, you're trying to serve many different "customers," if you will. Those who have played Civ over 10 years, those who've played less than 10 days. 12-year-olds and 72-year-olds. People who spend 40 hours per week playing Civ and people who spend 4 hours per week, when they're lucky.

Perhaps it is my style of thinking, or reading web sites, that is the problem. (Although I knew the rules from when I submitted a CotM in the past.)

I honestly NEVER SAW the post you quote above (until I clicked on the link in your post). I saw the announcement on the front CivFanatics page, clicked to the game release page, and downloaded the game. No fuss, no muss!

Now, I do NOT mean to criticize the way you run the site. These are simply observations:

• There is no mention of rules on the main-page announcement of Civ4 GOTM1.
• The only mention of rules on the main game release page is the big red "No Spoilers!" section.

I don't claim that there should be. I'm just observing that there is not. This is one of the things that came to mind when I read the posts by the people who said, "Uh, rules? I didn't know there were rules... I guess I broke them."

There is a link on the left to, "Your first visit to the land of GOTM." That page immediately points to the rules. There is also a link to "Code of Conduct," though I think many might well take that to mean "about the site," as opposed to "about the game you're going to download, play, and submit." The GOTM site is sort-of separate from the CivFanatics site, but I think most people would think of them as "one big site."

These two links are repeated in the blue section at the upper right of the page.

But, of course, the thing everybody is looking for is the big link at the bottom of the page to the save file.

I agree that it is the responsibility of the player to know the rules. How could I disagree?

But I'm one of those people who is "just trying to get something done." That's an awkward phrasing. What I mean is that I don't read every thread in every forum. I don't even read every GOTM thread. I don't read every post in any thread I do read (though I try to never post in a thread I'm haven't read completely - hence 30 posts in eighteen months - or however long I've been registered here). So when I download the GOTM, or try to submit it, I take whatever path seems most direct to me. I imagine I'm not alone in that.

There are so many paths to any piece of information (as there should be) that it is hard - as you've pointed out - to insure that anybody sees anything in particular.

I have no particular problem with the CivFanatics site in general. The post you quote does, indeed, refer clearly to the rules. I simply suggest that when people report being unaware of the rules, some additional steps might be taken to spread the word about them, such as the email I mentioned. I understand that you have conisdered it, and rejected it. And I'm OK with that. Really.

Thank you for your time, and your work on this site.

 

[Veritass]

In light of the discussion, this thread should probably be renamed "How to make CIV even more fun!" This is much more than a lesson in honesty. I came back to CIV after playing Diablo and Sacred for a while. In Sacred especially, playing "hardcore" (where when you die, you die) is 10x more fun that having no penalty for messing up. It brings in an extra dose of realism for the game.

I have one son who likes to set up scenarios with Age of Empires where fifty fire cannons on one team roast one poor foot soldier on another team. It is an amusing exercise, but it is certainly not playing the game, and it is much less fun.

 

[Memphus]

@Veritass

Great Idea! Update has been made ....But only in the title of the OP
Unfortunately I believe that I do not have the power to change the title of the thread in the Forum. This is for the all powerful mods to decide

Moderator Action: Done.

 

[Masquerouge]

Actually GOTM1 was my first game of the month ever. I was aware of the rules, and a bit afraid because I usually tend to reload a lot during my regular games.
I had a really good game, where I made some mistakes and paid for it, and I definitely know where I could do better on my next game.
And I think that from now on, I will play every game in that way, even the one where I have a crappy start, just to see my limits. I wonder how long that will last
But I will definitely play every GOTM from now on. I see that as my Civ4 exam

 

[EMan]

One MOST enjoyable facet of Civ 4 over Civ3........Now, I can actually hibernate my laptop computer while Civ 4 is running.......so presumably, when on the road, if the battery dies, the game will come back up upon inserting a charged battery. (The batteries seem to run out of juice before they say they will!......AND, Civ 3 running on my Dell Inspiron 9100 would ALWAYS abort with a newly loaded battery!)

The number of times I had to "Reload" Civ 3 for GOTM was so embarrassing, I started to feel guilty....even though I wasn't cheating!

(For Newcomers, you CAN Legally Reload if the Game/Computer crashes....the GOTM Police are really quite reasonable people, REALLY!!)