A look at Rationalism

[pineappledan]

And just from me trying to follow your unexplained thought above, I would see the obvious issue that Artistry would get along well with both Rationalism and Industry, and the other 2 medieval trees can get stuck with Imperialism for all I care. Not saying that's your intention, but it's what ppl would see from just your explanation (or the lack thereof).

Covering every possible base so that you don’t insert your own narrative into the cracks is exhausting. Having to give my thoughts on the finer points on Fealty -> Imperialism when I want to talk about Rationalism, and whatever possible other tangent you can concoct is asking for a tome every time, and frankly it’s demanding that I read your mind before I even start. If I could predict what bee is in your bonnet at any given moment there would be no point in communicating.

And the kicker to all of this is it’s clear from your first post that you hadn’t closely read the OP, because my first response to you was just referencing back to relevant sections of the OP. So even if I did make posts long enough to meet all your demands, I have evidence that you wouldn’t read it. In making my OP I had to transcribe all of the bonuses from game text into a forum-readable format just to give the immediately relevant background information before starting. The OP is already 700 words. I guess it’s easier to criticize all the work I didn’t do though, rather than considering how long it took to compose what IS there. Whatever.

But now you’ve successfully derailed the thread with diatribes about how you would like information presented, so congrats.

 

[cidk2000]

looking at the thread and combining my own thoughts. since the science changes ive had very late science victorys even on chieftian. Looking at these changes i doubt id pick rationalism in any game due to the late science victories. Tradition > statecraft > industry or Progress>Fealty> industry if peaceful would get me a culture victory (with the appropriate religion) so these changes are neutral id probably see no benefit. if warmongering id go authority (or progress/featly) artistry/ imperialsim and still probably crank out a culture victory way before science.

Id also probably get a Diplomatic victory way before too. Any change to Rationalism for me serves no purpose if this shaves off 50 turns of gameplay id might go for it but science is too late for me.

 

[pineappledan]

The lateness of SVs relative to CVs is... yeah it's definitely a factor. Based on Rationalism's existing bonuses, it should already have the tools to help with a SV; if the post-industrial eras are too slow to tech through, I'm dubious that Rationalism is the culprit.

If I were to put my thumb on some specific areas to look at, I would start with:
- trying to slow CV down by another 10 turns (weakening, pushing back, or raising the cost of various tourism-related bonuses and seeding a bit more defensive culture into the game)
- strengthening some general science sources or lower tech costs for all players in late game:

- the public school is really weak, for starters​

- could slice off a bit more tech cost for atomic and info eras.​

this shaves off 50 turns of gameplay id might go for it but science is too late for me.

That's probably overshooting it. I think we need to first establish what proportion of victories we think ought to be science victories. The game stats we have now suggest that SVs aren't being won 50 turns later than CVs are, at least on standard.

relevant thread

 

[Rekk]

(That and you shouldn't be relying on a single tree to do the heavy lifting to get you to a victory condition)

 

[cidk2000]

The lateness of SVs relative to CVs is... yeah it's definitely a factor. Based on Rationalism's existing bonuses, it should already have the tools to help with a SV; if the post-industrial eras are too slow to tech through, I'm dubious that Rationalism is the culprit.

If I were to put my thumb on some specific areas to look at, I would start with:
- trying to slow CV down by another 10 turns (weakening, pushing back, or raising the cost of various tourism-related bonuses and seeding a bit more defensive culture into the game)
- strengthening some general science sources or lower tech costs for all players in late game:

- the public school is really weak, for starters​

- could slice off a bit more tech cost for atomic and info eras.​

That's probably overshooting it. I think we need to first establish what proportion of victories we think ought to be science victories. The game stats we have now suggest that SVs aren't being won 50 turns later than CVs are, at least on standard.

relevant thread

Thanks for pointing out the relevant thread, ill read through and gather data

bare in mind this is anedoctal evidence on standard speed standard size maps (communtu (custom options are on and can lean heavily ) ive had 3 games on the new patch ( small pool) and many games on the previous patches with science on chieftian

range of culture victory turn 300-400

science victory once (choosing rationalism tradition/aritistry and finishing freedom) with Korea ignoring science victory at turn 350

culture victory (turn 300) japan authority/fealty/imperiaism/order ( warmonger - got bored and bogged down) * Barbs raging!

time victory (loss to ai) went for science victory as unobtainable culture as ai had way way too much culture (gone nuts)

small pool of data I have another game in progress will update

 

[pineappledan]

Something to think about:

Rationalism has a lot of science bonuses, but it's the onlypolicy tree in the game that doesn't give the player a single point of additional culture. This means that, of all the industrial trees, it might be the one that helps you go towards a SV, but it's also the one that speeds up everyone else's CV by making you vulnerable to their output.

If you're going to ultimately win a CV, then culture defense doesn't matter, only tourism offense matters, and no industrial tree does that much to help (other than Industry's wonder). More Science helps a cultural leader push towards the end wonders and the big global %tech modifiers faster, so it's a very good tree for speeding up your SV or CV, but a very bad tree for slowing down someone else's CV.

If Rationalism really is the SV tree, it already has the raw to do that job. What it might be lacking is the to delay an enemy CV.

 

[Stalker0]

Something to think about:

Rationalism has a lot of science bonuses, but it's the onlypolicy tree in the game that doesn't give the player a single point of additional culture.

It does in a secondary manner. Science means you will get to those culture buildings faster; science means you'll get to those tourism boosting techs quicker. Can let you get to archeology faster for more Great Works, etc. Those are important to consider.

 

[cidk2000]

reading the thread about cv vs other victories ive softened my approach a bit, however it still doesnt improve the sv and i think an above comment has reset my thought processes about "heavy lifting" ive always thought rationalism was the tree for science, perhaps it was for vanilla. A hangover perhaps?

I think my complaint might not be with this policy but for the science late game scaling looking at it it may feel that it doesnt add much and perhaps cv might be the problem

ive gone rationalism for the current game im on turn 251 im researching scientific theory, 2 into the tree 12 cities gone progress/fealty/rationalism on standard size standard speed ill see how it goes currently 482 science per turn vs 515 per turn on culture. Tourism is +88

 

[beginner_]

Rationalism has a lot of science bonuses, but it's the onlypolicy tree in the game that doesn't give the player a single point of additional culture

And in my current and only game so far with the new happiness and it shows. I have trouble with happiness because of boredom. Even good core cities have 6+ unhappiness from boredom while everything else is 0.newer cities especially with many ocean/coast tiles have 10+ unhappiness from boredom. And due to the flat reductions public works helps much less to reduce a single source of big unhappiness.

 

[cidk2000]

finished my russia game took rationalism still think the science endgame pacing is out won on turn 440 and i was pushing the science pretty hard id say increasing some specific science buildings just for rationalism including Nuclear Power Plants Spaceship factories etc from base science. As for culture that isnt so much as a problem as your going to be leading the pack right?