A Not So Modest Proposal Regarding Buildings, Resources and Units

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I'm currently working on an update so that corporations which require techs before Civil Engineering will be able to have HQs with Modern Offices, Officiums or Skyscrapers.

That sounds like a plan. It takes a long time to get to the Industrial era which is why it takes so long between posts about this stuff.

 

[ls612]

While we are looking at this could we please try and reduce the amount of stuff that depends on the Trading Post? It seems to be a bit too centralized around that, and forces a style of gameplay which is not necessarily fun.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

While we are looking at this could we please try and reduce the amount of stuff that depends on the Trading Post? It seems to be a bit too centralized around that, and forces a style of gameplay which is not necessarily fun.

This is one of the main buildings that will be free in new cities when we get that bit going.

BTW Yes anything that requires the storage pit should have the granary as an or especially as there is a wonder that gives free granaries to all cities.

 

[MaXimillionZero]

This is one of the main buildings that will be free in new cities when we get that bit going.

BTW Yes anything that requires the storage pit should have the granary as an or especially as there is a wonder that gives free granaries to all cities.

Or have a warehouse as a possible prereq, since those also replace storage pits, and change granaries so that they do not replace storage pits.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I was just testing some changes I want to make to the monastery buildings when I noticed the changes to Buddhist buildings you have here are not being applied. Is any one else seeing this?

Edit anyone have problems with me moving these requirements out of here and into "core"?

 

[Praetyre]

Well, it's been a while, but after some further wonders and some subsequent revisions to my own work, I feel now would be a good time to take a second (or rather, third, fourth or fifth) look at my plans for wonders. All of these are changes I am willing to make myself, their posting here is merely for the purpose of discussion, review and possible approval or rejection.

National Wonders

Spoiler :

Dike: This wonder really doesn't seem to give much besides being culturally unique to the Dutch and a couple of points. I think that making it into a regular building, perhaps with the points stripped ought, would be a good notion
District Courthouse: Has anyone made any inquiries into whether the sort of 1-per-3-courthouses tag could be created for this building?
Fusion Power Plant: Given that the Fusion Power bonus doesn't stack AFAIK, could this be put on the same buildability level as the other power plants, or at least made a 5-buildable wonder to account for multiple continent worlds?
Ironworks: This seems like an artefact from the days of 5 resource per factory 5 factory total days. Like the Dike, this could have the points stripped out and the production bonus nerfed, and it would make a decent early Industrial building in it's own right.
LDS Missionary Training Centre: Having this building as a NW may solve the 10% boost issue, but it puts Mormonism at a unique and historically inaccurate disadvantage when it comes to missionary training. If this building wouldn't make a good regular, could the natural spread rate of Mormonism be raised to compensate?
Medical Clinic: Hospital as a requirement would make this a good upgrade-building IMHO.
Modern Art Theatre: Theatre AND Opera House seems like quite a hefty requirement. Could thse be made into an OR requirement instead?
Movie Studio: Modern Offices would make a good requirement.
National Fire Service: Trading Post OR Modern Offices, natch.
National Library Service: The Trading Post OR Modern Offices requirement seems excessive, in light of it already requiring Library.
National Mint: In light of the new currency civics, Metals OR Coinage OR Gold Standard would seem a better fit, though given the US (a Credit-based nation if there ever was one) has a modern mint of it's own, one might question the need for civic requirements in the first place.
National Park: This is a very powerful wonder, even for it's time; completely stripping out the from population can lead to a veritable Green Baby Boom. Thus, to counterbalance, could access to other polluting resources be removed, such as Oil and Uranium?
Police Academy: These sorts of specialized institutions tend to be seperate from the academic mainstream, but for the sake of simplicity would Police Station AND University work?
Propaganda Net: Trading Post OR Modern Offices seems in order here.
Research Hospital: Hospital AND Laboratory, just like the CDC.
Scotland Yard: Just like Oxford University, this seems better suited for WW status. Perhaps it could function as a combo of 221B Baker Street and Police Academy's bonuses?
Secret Army Base: Military Airbase OR Military Base would seem in order.
Treasury: Is it possible that this could require Palace OR one of the other buildings that reduces maintenance in nearby cities, such as the Forbidden Palace or Versailles Palace?
UN Mission: Given the UN has been moved back to Globalization, shouldn't this be too? Also, it doesn't seem to require the UN to have been built; could the same code from IMF-World Bank be reused for this purpose?
Universal Healthcare: This is part of the Subsidized and Socialized civics, not a wonder unto itself. Benefits ought to be folded in IMHO.
Wembley Stadium: Like Scotland Yard, this seems better suited to WW status.

Great Wonders

Spoiler :

Aachen Catedral: Could this be made to require any State Religion Cathedral?
Akshardam: Hindu Mandir would make a more straightforward requirement, though the direct Brick requirement would have to be dropped in the process.
Angkor Wat: Considering it was built as a combination palace and temple, could it require any state religion cathedral and act as a Palace substitute?
Apadana Palace: Ditto.
Arc de Triomplhe: As this reminds the people of their past victories, could a drop to War be put in?
Ascension Gate: Why exactly is Paradise Garden required for this?
Bird's Nest Stadium: Major League Stadium for building req, anyone?
Blarney Castle: The key characteristic of Blarney Castle isn't being a walled city, it's the legendary stone within. Castle would seem to fit just fine.
Brandenburg Gate: Conversely, this would seem to fit High Walls much better than it would military garrisons.
Burning Man: What about this festival makes it dependent on desert? It's not like Woodstock requires a Family Farm.
Catacombs of Kom el Shoqafa: Tumulus OR Mausoleum would make a good requirement.
Chichen Itza: How about Bricks OR Stone?
Cristo Redendor: Now that we've got the Sculpture Factory up and running, Sculptures would seem to make a good requirement.
Cyrus Cylinder: Tablets would be fitting, though I'm willing to include other writing materials too.
Dinosaur Park: Not all dinosaurs were jungle dwellers; certainly, the Jurassic ones were for the most part, but the Triassic and Cretaceous lived in arid climes. We don't force animal biome links presently anyway; you don't need to be anywhere need the Arctic to have a Polar Bear build Enclosure- Bear in your Zoo.
Disneyland: Amusement Park would be a fair requirement.
East India Company: Trading Post OR Officium, anyone?
Edinburgh Castle: I get Castle, but why High Walls on top of that?
Ekal Masharti: It's an advanced Barracks, so having it require it would seem reasonable to me.
El Dorado: The whole distinguishing feature of this mythical lost city is that it's made out of gold. I suppose you could have it represent only the cultural-historical impact of it, but the +15 bonus isn't indicative of such a historiographical approach. Thus, Gold as requirement.
El Escorial: See Angkor Wat, though the Palace part is already done.
Ellis Island: Could this be made into a Python wonder that gives you the Native Culture of your choice? Think of what happens when European nations build this.
Famen Temple: How about having this require a State Religion Cathedral?
Fort Knox: This building should get a very powerful bonus with Gold Standard, something along the lines of double in the city it's built.
Giverny: I don't see why this should necessarily require river access, but requiring an improvement in the Hamlet line in the city vicinity would make a nice bonus.
Globe Theatre: Considering the power of no in city bonuses and the fact it burned down, could this be made a Renaissance or earlier wonder?
Hellsmouth Sanctuary: The art itself would make this a good candidate for Peak OR Volcano- Active OR Volcano- Dormant.
Helsinki Cathedral: See Aachen Cathedral
Hill of Tara: There's little point to giving a free Chief's Hut to cities whose civics lock that building out. I'd suggest either restricting it to Chiefdom, removing said free building or making special Python code/an alternate building so these cities can still get that benefit under other civics with this building.
Holy See Library: First, I'd like to apologise for the consternation my edits to this and other buildings caused last time. I assumed too much of my own authority that I had been granted a "modder's license" to add tweaks to C2C's buildings in my capacity as a team member. In future, I will filter all future such changes to this thread. That said, could a 50% construction bonus with The Apostolic Palace make a good compromise?
House of Wisdom: Why not have it just require Library?
Itsukushima Shrine: Prime Timber would seem a fitting requirement.
King Richard's Crusade: This is more of a question than a requirement issue, but could a corresponding Islamic wonder be added, along the lines of Saladin's Jihad?
Krak des Chevaliers: Why Stone and High Walls? Why not just a Castle?
Las Vegas Strip: See Burning Man.
Lascaux Paints: The Cave Painting requirement makes the Caves requirement redundant. I don't think Cave Painting should be confined to requiring the Caves feature anyway; there's plenty of room on open ground for rock petroglyphs, which would seem to be represented by the building too.
Maginot Line: Concrete AND Steel would seem a fair enough requirement.
Mapster Headquarters: Not to sound schizophrenic (which I actually am, but not in the mislabeled Dissociative Identity Disorder sense), but I think Computer Network would make this a good and unique corporation- it's representative of peer to peer file sharing networks, which don't need anything but said networks to proliferate.
Meenakshi Temple: See Akshardham.
Monte Carlo: How about Cement AND Fiberglass AND Steel?
Nimrud Palace: Furniture AND Bricks OR Marble OR Stone?
Notre Dame: Any Cathedral?
Palace of Potala: See Nimrud Palace
Palace of the Soviets: Fiberglass AND Furniture AND Steel?
Piazza San Marco: See Holy See Library.
Pleistocene Park: See Dinosaur Park.
Pont du Gard: Requiring Aqueduct would seem reasonable to me.
Pere Lachaise Cemetary: Graveyard OR Mausoleum?
Reichstag: Requiring House of Parliament or what House of Parliament's resource requirements are?
Shaolin Tempkle: Requiring any Monastery?
Shwedagon Paya: This still has a double bonus with Gold despite having it as an OR requirement. Might want to review that.
Silicon Valley: How about requiring Computers instead of Semiconductors?
Solar Updraft Tower: See Fusion Power Plant under the National Wonders section.
Solomon's Temple: Is having two of these meant to represent the two versions of the Jewish Temple?
Sun Tzu's Art of War: Unless we're going for oral transmittion, you'd need Books OR Paper OR Scrolls OR Tablets to keep this document floating around.
Sydney Opera House: Having this in the 16th century just seems strange. It's style is evocative of a very modern Australia; if Cristo Redendor require Radio, I think this should require Tourism. Sultan Qaboos Grand Mosque should remain an exception, given the timeless nature of many Islamic buildings.
Technological Capital: This looks better suited to National Wonder status; we might as well have Financial Capital and other wonders along the lines of Galactic Civilizations II.
Temple of Ah Cacao: Bricks OR Stone?
Terracotta Army: Why not just Sculptures rather than Fine Clay?
The Apostolic Palace: Another good candidate for State Religion Cathedral.
The Great Mosque of Djenne: What is this meant to be, exactly?
The Hagia Sophia: Why does this get +1 :happy: with Atheism? Was it culturally prominent under the Ataturk regime or something? Anyhow, how does Bricks sound?
The Kremlin: How about Bricks AND Furniture, and having this function as a second Palace?
The Motherland Calls: Would Steel work as a requirement?
The Pyramids: I actually think making this require Sculptures was a mistake if sculptures as a resource will be confined to the Classical era. Would it be possible to have a Prehistoric and/or Ancient sculpture making building and push this back to Masonry? Also, why would Irrigation Canals make more sense as a free building more than Graveyard?
The Sphinx: Ditto
The Spiral Minaret: Bricks?
The Temple of Artemis: Bricks OR Marble.
Thor Sanctuary: Bricks OR Prime Timber OR Wood?
Tokyo Sky Tree: Steel requirement seems redundant due to Skyscraper requirement.
Tokyo Tower: Ditto.
Tomb of Cyrus: Royal Tomb as speeding up construction? Bricks OR Marble?
Topkapi Palace: See The Kremlin.
University of Sankore: What of Library as a requirement?
Via Appia: Stone requirement is redundant due to requiring Paved Roads.
Westminster Abbey: See Aachen Cathedral.
World Trade Center: How about dropping the resource requirements and adding Skyscraper as a requirement?
Wudang Mountain: Peak in city vicinity?
Zurich-Orbital: This doesn't seem to be listed as an Orbital building yet.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I think all the reasoning behind the Mormon buildings is in a document in the folder containing the XML. I think there may be some buildings still to do.

 

[MaXimillionZero]

Dike: This wonder really doesn't seem to give much besides being culturally unique to the Dutch and a couple of points. I think that making it into a regular building, perhaps with the points stripped ought, would be a good notion

What? +1 extra production for most tiles is a huge bonus, no way it could remain at that level and become a building. (Note that it doesn't replace a Levee)

Ironworks: This seems like an artefact from the days of 5 resource per factory 5 factory total days. Like the Dike, this could have the points stripped out and the production bonus nerfed, and it would make a decent early Industrial building in it's own right.

It's already a building, not a wonder.

National Park: This is a very powerful wonder, even for it's time; completely stripping out the from population can lead to a veritable Green Baby Boom. Thus, to counterbalance, could access to other polluting resources be removed, such as Oil and Uranium?

Spirits Alliance/Nature Alliance already make a non-factor in your largest cities (assuming no ridiculous levels of slavespam, which is being changed anyway) if you have access to their respective religions (which you should by the time National Park becomes available), so National Park is weak enough as it is. Besides, uranium doesn't cause direct pollution.

Brandenburg Gate: Conversely, this would seem to fit High Walls much better than it would military garrisons.

High Walls obsoletes.

Famen Temple: How about having this require a State Religion Cathedral?

Not all religions have cathedrals (This also applies to other wonders, obviously)

That's all based on v27 btw, so if something isn't accurate in regards to SVN, ignore it.

 

[Praetyre]

What? +1 extra production for most tiles is a huge bonus, no way it could remain at that level and become a building. (Note that it doesn't replace a Levee)

You make a fair point, but unless you're operating a coastal city, water and river tiles aren't usually "most" of your cities worked cross.

It's already a building, not a wonder.

My most recent copy of the SVN says otherwise.

Spirits Alliance/Nature Alliance already make a non-factor in your largest cities (assuming no ridiculous levels of slavespam, which is being changed anyway) if you have access to their respective religions (which you should by the time National Park becomes available), so National Park is weak enough as it is. Besides, uranium doesn't cause direct pollution.

That seems like a balance issue that should be looked at. The reason I am advocating Uranium be removed is the same basis I presume the original author had Coal access removed; it is not inherently polluting in it's natural state, but the processes required to extract it and render it into a usable state for Civ purposes are highly polluting, and in the case of uranium, dangerous.

High Walls obsoletes.

Perhaps it could be an OR requirement, then?

Not all religions have cathedrals (This also applies to other wonders, obviously)

By Cathedral building, I mean the second-tier religious building present in every religion, the ones which a certain wonder whose name escapes me gives a 15% speed bonus to.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Praetyre

National Park: This is a very powerful wonder, even for it's time; completely stripping out the from population can lead to a veritable Green Baby Boom. Thus, to counterbalance, could access to other polluting resources be removed, such as Oil and Uranium?

Could you not touch this one. I wanted to do a complete overhaul of it.

Wembley Stadium: Like Scotland Yard, this seems better suited to WW status.

That's what I have been saying. But DH was against it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Scotland Yard should be changed anyway, it is the Great Spy building so it should be ale to be built by every Great Spy you get in one of your cities, just like for the other Great People's buildings.

 

[Yudishtira]

Wembley Stadium isn't even a National Wonder. From 2003 to 2007 we (the Brits) did without it altogether. And it's traditionally just a football (soccer) stadium, isn't it? Cricket has Lord's and The Oval, rugby had Twickenham (that might have changed).

But certainly every footballing country has its National Wonder stadium (eg. Maracana, San Siro, Camp Nou), and others have it from hosting the Olympics (and Australia primarily fills theirs at an annual religious event aka the "Aussie Rules" grand final ).

So change the name by all means, and maybe have a normal building called a Stadium (maybe you do already), but the National Stadium by this or any other name is appropriately a National Wonder.

 

[Praetyre]

We do have the Minor and Major League Stadiums for that purpose, though at the same time the Bird's Nest Stadium is a Great Wonder. Perhaps Wembley could be renamed Olympic Stadium and set to require the modern Olympic Games wonder (when is that coming, anyhow?).

 

[MaXimillionZero]

You make a fair point, but unless you're operating a coastal city, water and river tiles aren't usually "most" of your cities worked cross.

Coastal cities with river access (preferably with as little ocean and as many riverside tiles as possible) are inherently stronger than others, and should form most of a player's main cities as long as they have a good starting location, so I'd say the point is quite relevant.

By Cathedral building, I mean the second-tier religious building present in every religion, the ones which a certain wonder whose name escapes me gives a 15% speed bonus to.

Assuming you're referring to The Great Mosque of Djenne, it does not boost any buildings for Yoruba or Mesopotanism.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The Mormon building LDS Missionary Training Centre is supposed to build a missionary every few turns. Naturally when I started to code it I went for a generic solution and never got it to work. However I have it 50% done now so expect it post v28 release. The % fix is wrong now, it was designed for when the other monasteries went obsolete at Scientific Method which was before Mormon was founded. Someone changed when monasteries went obsolete but did not adjust all the religions founded after Scientific Method to compensate.

IMO if you are going to change Wembly Stadium to National Stadium then you should also change Oxford University to National University and make it a national wonder (its affects are only the size of a national wonder); and so on for all the national wonders that were turned into great wonders just because they had a name. None of them had the effects changed just their cost increased!

 

[Thunderbrd]

IMO if you are going to change Wembly Stadium to National Stadium then you should also change Oxford University to National University and make it a national wonder (its affects are only the size of a national wonder); and so on for all the national wonders that were turned into great wonders just because they had a name. None of them had the effects changed just their cost increased!

I've always been a proponent of the named buildings being world wonders but I also agree that when we do this, those upgraded to world wonder status should be given world wonder ability scope and replaced with a national wonder for the scope it had previously.

 

[ls612]

I've always been a proponent of the named buildings being world wonders but I also agree that when we do this, those upgraded to world wonder status should be given world wonder ability scope and replaced with a national wonder for the scope it had previously.

Well, having certain named buildings as national wonders make sense, the forbidden palace for one. I personally do not care whether national wonders are named or not really.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yep... the Forbidden Palace is another one that bugs me. In the US it'd be called Camp David. I'd almost prefer that buildings like these be culture based national wonders if they are to be national wonders rather than world wonders. Not to say that their role shouldn't be replaced by something more generic such as 'Substitute Palace' or something to that extent.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Yep... the Forbidden Palace is another one that bugs me. In the US it'd be called Camp David. I'd almost prefer that buildings like these be culture based national wonders if they are to be national wonders rather than world wonders. Not to say that their role shouldn't be replaced by something more generic such as 'Substitute Palace' or something to that extent.

The Civ III mod RoM was based off had "Summer Palace" and "Winter Palace"

 

[Thunderbrd]

The Civ III mod RoM was based off had "Summer Palace" and "Winter Palace"

Now that sounds like a really excellent idea! I also kinda like the concept of using the special named real world examples like Forbidden Palace as special buildings for cultures too the more I think about it.