A place for violence

[EgonSpengler]

Problem is that ultimately the dad is correct. If there is a CLEAR case of self defense, UCLP is still very likely to lose his job. If there is even a hint of murkiness, he is almost CERTAIN to lose his job. Point of fact if a shoplifter has the cajones to say "Oh, you saw me? So what?" and walk out of the store he can't physically stop them. That's reality. If there is any sort of brawl the only way UCLP has any probability of keeping his job is if he is not involved in it at all.

All the more reason not to inflame the situation. I didn't think to mention it before, but I wouldn't want to assume that UCLP would back me up, if I were the one to start a fracas with Belligerent Guy. UCLP might just be the guy explaining to the cops how these two white dudes started a fight in his store.

 

[mrt144]

By the way, no one is considering the presence of the kid, and the likelihood that he will be a hostile witness.

Which is why as a neutral bystander it is your duty to stand up to those who would go to great lengths to screw the UCLP over.

 

[mrt144]

Also, this is as much a critique about dealing with openly racist jerks in public as it is about how terribly treated retail staff are by their employers.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

All the more reason not to inflame the situation. I didn't think to mention it before, but I wouldn't want to assume that UCLP would back me up, if I were the one to start a fracas with Belligerent Guy. UCLP might just be the guy explaining to the cops how these two white dudes started a fight in his store.

Back you up in what way? Is your concern with physical backup in regards to the outcome of the fracas, or legal backup in regards to what happens when the cops arrive if there is a fracas?

 

[zxcvbob]

I'm not assuming he "can't handle himself." Just pointing out that he may be realistic, and that a big part of "handling yourself" includes not giving an unknown adversary the first swing based on some arrogance about your own superiority.

How do you define "directly concern"?

I'm not a party to the disagreement. It's not even my place to call the cops. I'm just a witness. (There are probably cameras watching too.)

Where is the store owner in all this?

 

[EgonSpengler]

Also, this is as much a critique about dealing with openly racist jerks in public as it is about how terribly treated retail staff are by their employers.

In a purely self-serving way, I've been thinking about how I would want to distance myself from Belligerent Guy and let the whole world know that I'm not with him, in any sense.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Also, this is as much a critique about dealing with openly racist jerks in public as it is about how terribly treated retail staff are by their employers.

Absolutely. How employers treat their employees in such situations is part of the scenario. I consider it just a baseline of the background though, not a subject. If anyone thinks my assessment is wrong I suppose it would have to be discussed though.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Where is the store owner in all this?

Scattered all across America and taking no responsibility whatsoever no matter what happens. Aren't corporations wonderful?

 

[EgonSpengler]

Back you up in what way? Is your concern with physical backup in regards to the outcome of the fracas, or legal backup in regards to what happens when the cops arrive if there is a fracas?

Both, I suppose.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'm not a party to the disagreement.

Aren't you? When a black kid grows up thinking "all white people are just racists anyway" and has no conscience about killing us, do you not think events like this might feed his erroneous perception?

Racism is real, and this guy who is grinning at you assumes he represents you. Is he not correct? Doesn't he, actually, represent you to some degree in the eyes of other people who might judge you by the color of your skin?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Both, I suppose.

Fair answer, but that still leaves them as separate questions calling for different answers.

 

[rah]

Why are you assuming the uclp is going to throw a punch?
I'm sure his training specifically would discourage that type of response.

But to answer your question. In your shoes, I'd just point off in a vague direction and mumble something about security cameras. That might discourage asshatery.

 

[zxcvbob]

Aren't you? When a black kid grows up thinking "all white people are just racists anyway" and has no conscience about killing us, do you not think events like this might feed his erroneous perception?

Racism is real, and this guy who is grinning at you assumes he represents you. Is he not correct? Doesn't he, actually, represent you to some degree in the eyes of other people who might judge you by the color of your skin?

I thought you said the kid was black white. Make up your mind!

 

[mrt144]

Why are you assuming the uclp is going to throw a punch?
I'm sure his training specifically would discourage that type of response.

But to answer your question. In your shoes, I'd just point off in a vague direction and mumble something about security cameras. That might discourage asshatery.

Rah suggests the most Rah thing ever.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The kid is (at least former) shoplifter, not a thug.
The dad is potentially just an overprotective parent, obviously a racist, and maybe a thug.
Yes, they are white.
Yes, loss prevention guy is black.

I thought you said the kid was black. Make up your mind!

I find it genuinely astounding that I had to clarify that once, much less twice.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Why are you assuming the uclp is going to throw a punch?
I'm sure his training specifically would discourage that type of response.

But to answer your question. In your shoes, I'd just point off in a vague direction and mumble something about security cameras. That might discourage asshatery.

His need to keep his job is certainly a deterrent. Black UCLP fired for striking customer is probably unemployed for life, after all. Dunno if that constitutes "training."

I didn't assume he would throw a punch, I just questioned the assumption that he wouldn't.

 

[rah]

If he was instructed on the legalities of his options when confronting a shoplifter, I assume punching out someone would be covered.

 

[rah]

And if you've seen him enough that you chat with him regularly, he must be a reasonable good employee.
Not someone likely to do something stupid.

 

[warpus]

Assume you are a white person.

Okay.

Dad takes backing away as backing down, and puffs up like a banty rooster. He moves quickly forward, getting close enough to speak in a low voice and be heard, and says "Swing at me <your guess is no doubt accurate> and lose your job." He looks at you, who are standing close enough to hear him clearly, with a grin that says that he fully expects you, since you are on the "right side" of a skin color equation, to have his back in whatever happens when the cops get there.

Soooooo...what is the appropriate action here?

I'm just a bystander, right?

Why would I get involved? Let the undercover guy do his job.

I would have said this if you had asked me to pretend I am asian, or black, or native American.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'm not a party to the disagreement.

I'm just a bystander, right?

Why would I get involved?

Asked and answered.

Aren't you? When a black kid grows up thinking "all white people are just racists anyway" and has no conscience about killing us, do you not think events like this might feed his erroneous perception?

Racism is real, and this guy who is grinning at you assumes he represents you. Is he not correct? Doesn't he, actually, represent you to some degree in the eyes of other people who might judge you by the color of your skin?

But, since the answer caused some confusion, when I asked about a "black kid growing up thinking" I wasn't referring to anyone in this scenario. I was talking about the generic kid, out there, who happens to be black. Who when he says things like "white people stick together" gets called a racist. Who when he says "the system is rigged against me because I'm black" is told he's just plain wrong and he can expect to be treated fairly.

That kid, who might be told by his dad, or uncle, or big brother that "at work today a white guy tried really hard to pick a fight, and of course I had to let him get away with it because if I get fired I'll NEVER get another job." Of course, we want desperately to say "well, that dad/uncle/brother shouldn't go spreading such racist nonsense!" and are constrained by the "reality" that in this hypothetical situation we are allowing it to be the truth.