A question: religious units

[Ahriman]

Why is it that Stygian guards are so massively better than Crusaders or Paramanders? They get to use metal weapons, which is really a massive bonus.
I know its always been this way, but is that really the intended design - Paramander/crusaders are strength 7, and stygian guards are strength 8, 9 or 11? Guards are fantastic, whereas the others are very very mediocre. Shouldn't they at least cost fewer hammers to build or something?

I realize the factions are designed to be balanced on an overall basis and not on a per unit basis, but this is part of what makes OO so much more powerful than other religions.

 

[Methuselah]

These + Tsunami = pretty much any city with water next to it is yours.

You can get these quite a while before the opponent gets champions, and they're str 7 out of the gate.

 

[Senethro]

Tier 2 religious units.
Fawn
Soldier of Kilmorph
Radiant Guard
Drown

Hmmmm. Not much to choose between them, all useful in their own way.

Tier 3 religious units.
Nightwatch
Ratha
Crusader
Paramander
Diseased Corpse
Styg
Satyr

No clear winners or losers here either I think. Satyrs are my favorite, but you have to work for them.

As for Stygs vs. Crusaders, remember that Crusaders have Medic 1 and are living units. They heal their stack and can have many spells applied to them that Stygs cannot. Crusaders are also Disciple units, and so may be more suited to a Spiritual leader.

Would a Spr/Chm Varn Gosam be any good with Crusader spam? A fast moving army non-reliant on metals that trains itself? Fanaticism is cheaper than Iron Working, right?

 

[zup]

Yes, but it is better to go Empyrean with Varn so you can dominate overcouncil and keep that mana. mana > diplomacy... After all, if they don't like you, you can still kill them but nothing can substitute mana.

 

[Lade]

Yes, Varn has the best crusader spam, simply change to phil for a while, get as many GPs as possible, change to Spr/Agg, and your all set

Stygian gaurds are pretty strong, but all units are strong in their own way, things are not meant to be "exactly the same" in FFH

 

[Ahriman]

Stygian guards are MASSIVELY more powerful than any of the other tier3 religious units, because of how they scale with metal weapons. Really, nobody sees this as a problem?

Crusaders are pretty weak, and Paramanders are a joke. Healing 1 is pretty weak on a combat unit, because all I need is a single priest in the stack and the promotion is useless. Give me waterwalking instead *any* day.

 

[Kenjister]

I agree that Stygian Guards are extremely powerful, though I don't think they need a nerf. I think that the other t3 diciple units should get a nice buff, preferably some additional starting promotions and a 1 or 2 strength increase.

As it is right now, the only time I've used Crusaders was in Lord of the Balors, where I was fighting demonic units 1 tier below me. In my opinion, Crusaders should be the unit of choice when fighting demonic hoards and an incentive to adopt the Order.

 

[cabbagemeister]

OO is weak in nonmilitary areas, whereas Order has some very nice economic options (like Unyielding Order or Social Order). OO needs to have strong units because it doesn't have enough else going for it. Obviously Stygians are the most "overpowered" religious units, but no one is arguing that the religion as a whole is overpowered. Since FfH is balanced on a macro level, not a micro level, it is right and proper that some units be much stronger than others.

 

[Valerarren]

Obviously Stygians are the most "overpowered" religious units, but no one is arguing that the religion as a whole is overpowered. Since FfH is balanced on a macro level, not a micro level, it is right and proper that some units be much stronger than others.

Agrees with the above point.

 

[Ahriman]

Stygian temples are huge culture producers (which can be hard to get cheaply - look at how expensive Theatres are), OO priests are probably the second best in the game (after AV), Drown are good and cheap, Stygian are probably the best tier2 religious units, and they get good heroes.

Compare this to Empyrean; terrible priests, mediocre temples, very expensive rathas, only really strong point is the very strong (lone) religious hero. Or to FoL for any non-elf race.
All Runes really has going for it are good temples.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

I dunno its nice to spam out Solders of Kilimorph to finish that wonder. Can be a bit expensive, but if you plan ahead and get about 30 or more built before the tech is discovered - the wonder is all yours. This way your great engineer can be used other ways. That is until cheep slave are available.

 

[Imuratep]

For Empyrion I had a OCC that showed me how powerful Radiant Guards can be. I was conquering Auric Ulvin with Chalid and other strong units. My city was guarded by about 10 Radiant Guards. I had taken ten of his cities and two were remaining and I thought I got it, but then Auric sent a 30-40 units stack to my city and I thought that's it. But then I tried all measures I had and promoted my Radiant Guards with Mobility, let them walk on the tile directly adjectant to his stack, used their spell and then I moved them back. Every single unit was held and I managed to destroy his remaining cities what otherwise would have been impossible.

 

[Mesix]

Stygian temples are huge culture producers (which can be hard to get cheaply - look at how expensive Theatres are), OO priests are probably the second best in the game (after AV), Drown are good and cheap, Stygian are probably the best tier2 religious units, and they get good heroes.

Compare this to Empyrean; terrible priests, mediocre temples, very expensive rathas, only really strong point is the very strong (lone) religious hero. Or to FoL for any non-elf race.
All Runes really has going for it are good temples.

I guess you've never had Bambur and a stack of SoK armed with iron weapons from the Mines of Galdur take over an entire continent well before any other civ has access to iron. RoK is a great religion to rush for in the early game. Spreading it to all your cities in the wake of your conquest will also help you to pay the support costs for a vast early empire since the temples produce instead of .

 

[cabbagemeister]

Compare this to Empyrean; terrible priests, mediocre temples, very expensive rathas, only really strong point is the very strong (lone) religious hero.

I haven't played a whole lot of Empy, but I have seen many opinions on this forum that Empy temples are really strong, a few Rathas can derail massive invasion forces, and Chalid can win games by himself. Certainly Empy is more frequently praised than OO.

 

[Iceciro]

Stygs are your saving grace for OO on an inland invasion because nothing else they have is going to help you. Lunatics are *still* pretty useless on the offensive, Tsunami isn't a lot of help without water nearby, and Kraken don't walk on land.

Empyrean temples are freaking fantastic. All you need is more than 20 beakers and your temples are producing more research than the veil temples.

Theaters are expensive because they provide happiness per your culture rate and 3 culture in addition. You also don't have to do anything (like have OO in the city) to get them. I'll take the bonuses from ANY of the other temples before the culture bonus from OO.
OO does not have
Vs. Order - the best civic in the game, A second courthouse, Unyeilding Order for captured cities...
Vs. Kilmorph - A massive economy, a FANTASTIC early game unit that can also production rush, and a wonder that provides you with free iron.

I could go on but I want to play Kilmorph now...

 

[cabbagemeister]

Wait, what do Empy temples do? According to Xienwolf's manual, they give +10%, not +10%.

Either way I would take them over OO temples. But +10% is amazing, much better than any of the other temples.

 

[Methuselah]

Wait, what do Empy temples do? According to Xienwolf's manual, they give +10%, not +10%.

They give +10%. The manual does contain errors now and again, considering the game is also updated quite frequently. You should report any you find on the manual thread so Xienwolf can fix them for the next release.

 

[PanzerWolf]

I guess you've never had Bambur and a stack of SoK armed with iron weapons from the Mines of Galdur take over an entire continent well before any other civ has access to iron. RoK is a great religion to rush for in the early game. Spreading it to all your cities in the wake of your conquest will also help you to pay the support costs for a vast early empire since the temples produce instead of .

I though you steel needed Iron Working to get the iron weapons? Or is it different with SoKs?

 

[Azhral]

I though you steel needed Iron Working to get the iron weapons? Or is it different with SoKs?

The Mines of Galdur gives you 3 iron that can be used immediately, iron working not needed. Smelting reveals iron but you need iron working to connect up, same as reagents and incense (Calendar, then KOTE or Philosophy respectively).

Anywho, I've given Paramander's Earth 1, Satyr's Nature 1 and Crusader's Law 1, and all three Channeling 1 so they can actually cast. Also made Paramaders upgrade to Druids (so RoK civs get fancy druids, but Dwarven Druids are still stronger and have Crush), and gave Crusaders the ability to build forts (the best thing about the Civ3 Crusaders) at 80% the rate of workers and 25% desert defense, allowing a group to literally go Crusading and keep themselves going with all the extra healing, but the defense bonus may be overpowered. Monarch Varn Gosam crusaders cleaned up the whole map. The altar gave them 15xp out of the capital anyway. Also Channeling 1 plus Potency gave them a bit of passive xp too.

One idea I had to beef them up a little was to add 0.5 mana affinities, but since the variable is an int this is a bit harder than I thought. Also teaching myself XML at the same time. Can you put formulae straight into XML sheets? Couldn't find anything on the internets. The FLOOR formula would be ideal, but have no idea how to get it to work. End result being you'd need 2 of each mana type to increase their by 1, so the right civ plus the holy city would get 1, anything more would need quite a few mana nodes.

FLOOR(BONUS_MANA/2,1)

Also, Ratha's are awesome. 3 movement, access to weapons, Sun 2 and 50% vs Recon units. Entire armies paralysed (Tower of Alteration rocks for this), and considering the AI's love of Rangers and Beastmasters, Ratha's just chew them up. Flanking 3 makes them damn near unkillable to boot.

 

[Emptiness]

Anywho, I've given <snip> Crusader's Law 1, and <snip> Channeling 1 so they can actually cast. Also <snip> gave Crusaders the ability to build forts (the best thing about the Civ3 Crusaders) at 80% the rate of workers and 25% desert defense, allowing a group to literally go Crusading and keep themselves going with all the extra healing, but the defense bonus may be overpowered. Monarch Varn Gosam crusaders cleaned up the whole map. The altar gave them 15xp out of the capital anyway. Also Channeling 1 plus Potency gave them a bit of passive xp too.

Might be more than just the defense bonus in the overpowered column there...