A Spy Has Been Stumbled Upon (Penalties, Retaliation and Double Agents...)
- Thread starter agoodfella
- Start date
agoodfella
Prince
Thanks for your comment. Yes, I also remember that in Civ II.
Big J Money
Emperor
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 1,141
+1 Feyd, +1 Feyd.
Feyd has definitely the best solutions. The only thing missing (imho) is some kind of double agent option that maybe costs a ridiculously high amount of EPs.
The double agent would simply be an agent that ALWAYS fails but is NEVER caught. He would also glean you some kind of bonus against the other empire. Ideas, Feyd?
=$=
Feyd has definitely the best solutions. The only thing missing (imho) is some kind of double agent option that maybe costs a ridiculously high amount of EPs.
The double agent would simply be an agent that ALWAYS fails but is NEVER caught. He would also glean you some kind of bonus against the other empire. Ideas, Feyd?
=$=
I do, too, and wasn't it similar in CivIII? I can't understand why they take a step backwards from concepts which have been working well for years.
TheBigBabyP
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2007
- Messages
- 17
I can not agree more. In my last game I got a great start, so I was in the lead since about 3000 BC. As I got into about the 1700 A.D. the spying simply got rediculous. I was running 20% esp spending and building all of the bonus buildings that I could. But it did not help. I had a huge lead on most of the civs, but they still sent spies. I had 27580 esp points on the khemr and they had about 2500 on me but they still kept sending spies. I would catch about 1 per turn but eventually they would get through. Then as I approached a cultural victory Spies started coming from everywhere even other continents. I had all other civs dominated in Esp points.
It got so bad that at one point 7 of 9 cities were suffering poison or improvement damage. and on one turn I caught 6 spies in my territory and had one succesfull attack still get through.
All of the other civs were doing the same. I think the easiest solution to this is that if your spie or theirs gets caught attempting an espionage mission. you lose the Esp points that the mission was going to cost. This would have a two pronged effect.
A. civs that have few esp points could not just keep sending spies until they succeed because they would soon run out of points.
B. It would give more motovation to embed a spy and lower the cost\risk of attempting a mission.
If your spy was caught passing through and not attempting a mission nothing happens. This would make sense as well because if you attempt a mission that fails you still spend all the effort time and money, it just does not work.
It got so bad that at one point 7 of 9 cities were suffering poison or improvement damage. and on one turn I caught 6 spies in my territory and had one succesfull attack still get through.
All of the other civs were doing the same. I think the easiest solution to this is that if your spie or theirs gets caught attempting an espionage mission. you lose the Esp points that the mission was going to cost. This would have a two pronged effect.
A. civs that have few esp points could not just keep sending spies until they succeed because they would soon run out of points.
B. It would give more motovation to embed a spy and lower the cost\risk of attempting a mission.
If your spy was caught passing through and not attempting a mission nothing happens. This would make sense as well because if you attempt a mission that fails you still spend all the effort time and money, it just does not work.
Innawerkz
I'm the other white meat.
Love these ideas. After quickly perusing Solvers "Guide to Event Modding" this would seem rather simple to do.
The Events work on triggers. Essentially you would create these events to have a 100% chance to activate when either: a spy was caught or a spy was caught and nationality was identified. It seems rather simplistic to introduce. In fact, I might try to do this "for fun". Never modded before though, so it will take a little reading.
Will any of the modders be trying to implement this?Possible complications:
- How will the AI handle this? How does one weight the decisions made by the AI in these instances?
- Will the AI care that it keeps getting negative hits from caught spies? How do you make the AI 'care' about his opponent making these 'event' choices?
I think you could do the Double Agent concept through an expenditure of raw
to symbolize 'turning' the agent. Once flipped, a list of potential uses for that agent (a one time use?) comes up with the Espionage Point cost to you. IMO, the EP cost should come at a discount as less planning would be required for the double agent to gain access to accomplish the mission.There is a tag for Espionage Points too, so we can do the 'gain EP points' and there is the ability to generate a unit tag also, so having the spy flip would be doable. Hmm... I wonder if there is a way to turn all the infiltrating nations spies visible for 'x' turns? A 5% chance the captured spy reveals location of ongoing espionage activity in your borders and doubles the EP cost of their missions. This would enable you to attack them and remove them from your borders - potentially without war?
I think I am getting out of my pay grade.
agoodfella
Prince
Yes, all great ideas. We should definitely try to incorporate this in a future mod. Such as ViSa, etc.
Noone else likes the DOUBLE AGENT idea?
Noone else likes the DOUBLE AGENT idea?
It didn't work well. In Civ III, at least, it was easily exploited to provoke a target AI into declaring war on you, so you got the war you wanted without the penalties of being the one to declare. All you had to do was demand something from an AI, keep doing so until he got furious with you, then attempt an espionage mission designed to fail. Boom, war is on and you look like the poor, innocent victim. I played Civ 2, but too long ago for me to remember how well it worked.
lankypeter
Chieftain
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 74
Actually, I really like this idea (along with other diplomatic ones too). This wouldn't be much different than one of the random events I got the other night. It said that an English person wanted for crimes was in my territory. I could do nothing, interrogate him (with Churchill potentially finding out) about England, or extradite (making Churchill like me). I think that would be a great addition for Spies being captured, along with potential actions against the Civ.
I just think that there needs to be more of a potential penalty (other than just wasted gold when the quest fails) for all the spies that are so easy to build in the game.
Innawerkz
I'm the other white meat.
Follow up in thought to address the original concern of not being able to Declare War.
Does anyone know if through 'Event Triggers' you can cause the AI to declare war? What I am thinking is that one of the options could be to 'Retaliate for their espionage indiscretions! WAR!'
The problem with declaring is you activate all of the defensive pacts that the defender has and suffer malus' for 'declaring war on my friend'. Perhaps we could rig it so that you are choosing to declare war, but in actuality it will read that 'enemy civ X' is declaring on you. That will cancel defensive pacts etc and make them look the aggressor.
EVEN BETTER: I just read that you can design it so certain events can happen only after other events have occured. My thought is, an option that is: "Cease spying on us or we will consider this an act of war!". If you decide this, nothing substantial will happen beyond a message in the Events Log saying something along the lines of "Greece has threatened war on India if they do not stop their espionage."
The next time a spy is caught from the same nationality the "Declare War" option becomes available with no backlash from the other civs. The Event log could read "India has ignored the warning to stop all espionage in Greek lands. Greece has declared war."
Thoughts?
EDIT: Skimmed right over it. There is a trigger for events causing war between civs. NICE!
Does anyone know if through 'Event Triggers' you can cause the AI to declare war? What I am thinking is that one of the options could be to 'Retaliate for their espionage indiscretions! WAR!'
The problem with declaring is you activate all of the defensive pacts that the defender has and suffer malus' for 'declaring war on my friend'. Perhaps we could rig it so that you are choosing to declare war, but in actuality it will read that 'enemy civ X' is declaring on you. That will cancel defensive pacts etc and make them look the aggressor.
EVEN BETTER: I just read that you can design it so certain events can happen only after other events have occured. My thought is, an option that is: "Cease spying on us or we will consider this an act of war!". If you decide this, nothing substantial will happen beyond a message in the Events Log saying something along the lines of "Greece has threatened war on India if they do not stop their espionage."
The next time a spy is caught from the same nationality the "Declare War" option becomes available with no backlash from the other civs. The Event log could read "India has ignored the warning to stop all espionage in Greek lands. Greece has declared war."
Thoughts?
EDIT: Skimmed right over it. There is a trigger for events causing war between civs. NICE!
Innawerkz
I'm the other white meat.
More ideas - logging them here for feedback:
Add a % chance of framing civilizations on successful missions. 2 - 5% chance of modifying the relations of enemy civilizations.
Not sure how the Event Manager would select the civs to frame though. I wonder if I could select them based on their place on the scoreboard. 1st & 2nd place that isn't your civ.
I have my doubts about this one being able to work through the Events/Triggers.
ADD: Sorry, littlelisa. Rereading the thread I noticed you already suggested this for captured spies!
Add a % chance of framing civilizations on successful missions. 2 - 5% chance of modifying the relations of enemy civilizations.
Not sure how the Event Manager would select the civs to frame though. I wonder if I could select them based on their place on the scoreboard. 1st & 2nd place that isn't your civ.
I have my doubts about this one being able to work through the Events/Triggers.
ADD: Sorry, littlelisa. Rereading the thread I noticed you already suggested this for captured spies!
Not necessarily so. It only provoked a war (even if many spies were caught) if relations were already bad AND the opponent wasn't too weak. Sounds about right to me.
agoodfella
Prince
We definitely need a penalty system that is for certain. As of now, WE get penalized for having a spy caught, but nothing happens to the AI Civs.
Feyd Rautha
King
I had some more thoughts, but thanks to everyone for your words of support and if somebody can mod it that would be great.
As for the "double agent" idea if you look at "Interrogate Him" closely you see that you gain a new spy unit from "flipping" him (or her). That was kind of my intent.
As for my alternate ideas...
One of YOUR spies is captured...
*Spend 1XX gold and XXX esp points to extricate your spy quietly 60% chance (guarantees no allegiance if fails)
*Spend XXX esp points to 'silence' the spy before he hemmorages information 80% chance (10% chance of spy flipping sides and giving opponent XXX esp points vs. you)
*"If you are captured our government will deny you ever existed..." (90% chance spy is captured, regular % chance discovered as yours, 1% chance of escape and promotion to Great Spy)
Finally, ANY espionage event will have a low percentage chance of producing a "Hit Movie" because c'mon... it's the stuff movies are made of!
Anyway, I've got to head to work and so sorry for the rushed nature of this post.
As for the "double agent" idea if you look at "Interrogate Him" closely you see that you gain a new spy unit from "flipping" him (or her). That was kind of my intent.
As for my alternate ideas...
One of YOUR spies is captured...
*Spend 1XX gold and XXX esp points to extricate your spy quietly 60% chance (guarantees no allegiance if fails)
*Spend XXX esp points to 'silence' the spy before he hemmorages information 80% chance (10% chance of spy flipping sides and giving opponent XXX esp points vs. you)
*"If you are captured our government will deny you ever existed..." (90% chance spy is captured, regular % chance discovered as yours, 1% chance of escape and promotion to Great Spy)
Finally, ANY espionage event will have a low percentage chance of producing a "Hit Movie" because c'mon... it's the stuff movies are made of!
Anyway, I've got to head to work and so sorry for the rushed nature of this post.
agoodfella
Prince
It's crazy on my game to. I am catching a spy about every other turn or so.
Innawerkz
I'm the other white meat.
Those are exactly the things I am worried about.
If the AI doesn't adjust and adapt to any implementation of 'capturing' a spy AND we guarantee this event happening 100% of the time a spy is captured, the diplomatic penalties by the end of the game (or free agents/bonus EP/free damage to enemies accrued) would be ridiculous.
Perhaps not having it succeed EVERY time a spy is captured, but a smaller percentage of these interrogations taking place? 10% of the time instead?
If the AI doesn't adjust and adapt to any implementation of 'capturing' a spy AND we guarantee this event happening 100% of the time a spy is captured, the diplomatic penalties by the end of the game (or free agents/bonus EP/free damage to enemies accrued) would be ridiculous.
Perhaps not having it succeed EVERY time a spy is captured, but a smaller percentage of these interrogations taking place? 10% of the time instead?
Spies are just too much a part of the game. By keeping the Espionage slider at 10%, building the right buildings and keeping a spy in each city, the negative effect on my game is minimal (a poison water event every 20 turns or so). But having a spy captured each turn -- even if the options were different -- just makes it too pervasive. Even if all they did was something like limit the number of spies (as with missionaries and executives) it would be an improvement.
DOWN WITH SPY SPAM!
DOWN WITH SPY SPAM!
With the weak opponent, it wasn't needed, because you'd roll over him before the WW got too bad anyway. The bad relations were achievable in a single turn, no matter how good they were at the start of the turn. To top it off, the espionage system meant that you had as many tries as you could pay for to get your spy caught. Then you could insert another rather quickly to regain the ability to investigate cities. In short, it was far too easy to exploit in every meaningful situation.
