A strategy for consistent cultural wins on Monarch
- Thread starter walkerjks
- Start date
After reading about Incan rushes, I thought I would experiment with the Incans for cultural wins.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146674
There are seemingly three aspects of the Incas that make them attractive for culture wins:
1) You can conquer one AI opponent early. So instead of building your way to 3 cities, you effectively conquer your way there. And the enemy capitol will likely be in a better location than you could find available and will already be size 4 to 6 when you conquer it.
2) The leftover quechas will put you in great position to capture one or more barbarian cities. So you might be able to get to size 5 without building a single settler.
3) You start with mysticism and can easily grab Hinduism and Judaism if you choose. And depending on starting location, you might be able to conquer the civ that found Buddhism.
4) Since you aren't chop rushing settlers, you can use all your forests for wonders. Oracle, Pyramids, and Great Lighthouse are all excellent wonders for a cultural win.
You don't want to get greedy and try to take out 2 AI civs. By the time you are ready to take out a second civ, you will be facing chariots or axeman. Not good. And under no circumstances try to take out the Malinese. Quechas can handle archers in most cases, but Skirmishers are a problem.
There are some downsides:
1) The conquered cities will likely be far from your capitol. This is not a huge problem on lower difficulty levels, but it's a real problem on Emperor. Capturing a city that instantly saddles you with a maintenance cost of 8 gold is rough on early science. If you get Code of Laws early (with the Oracle), you can mitigate this with courthouses.
2) Even though grabbing religions early is easy, you still skip too many other techs. I had a lot of starts where my research got crippled early due to the spread out cities, yet I didn't have pottery or fishing or other income generating techs to offset the maintenance. Or I didn't have copper and hadn't researched iron working yet,
So my general recommendation with the Incans at Emperor is to:
- Research Polytheism first, then start looking at income-producing techs. That means pottery, mining, and maybe fishing.
- Takeover one AI civ and stop. Closer is better.
I haven't figured out if I can win earlier using this strategy or not. Earlier religion is certainly good and having 2 developed cities early is fabulous. If nothing else, early conquest makes the Incans a fun variant to Catherine and Elizabeth.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146674
There are seemingly three aspects of the Incas that make them attractive for culture wins:
1) You can conquer one AI opponent early. So instead of building your way to 3 cities, you effectively conquer your way there. And the enemy capitol will likely be in a better location than you could find available and will already be size 4 to 6 when you conquer it.
2) The leftover quechas will put you in great position to capture one or more barbarian cities. So you might be able to get to size 5 without building a single settler.
3) You start with mysticism and can easily grab Hinduism and Judaism if you choose. And depending on starting location, you might be able to conquer the civ that found Buddhism.
4) Since you aren't chop rushing settlers, you can use all your forests for wonders. Oracle, Pyramids, and Great Lighthouse are all excellent wonders for a cultural win.
You don't want to get greedy and try to take out 2 AI civs. By the time you are ready to take out a second civ, you will be facing chariots or axeman. Not good. And under no circumstances try to take out the Malinese. Quechas can handle archers in most cases, but Skirmishers are a problem.
There are some downsides:
1) The conquered cities will likely be far from your capitol. This is not a huge problem on lower difficulty levels, but it's a real problem on Emperor. Capturing a city that instantly saddles you with a maintenance cost of 8 gold is rough on early science. If you get Code of Laws early (with the Oracle), you can mitigate this with courthouses.
2) Even though grabbing religions early is easy, you still skip too many other techs. I had a lot of starts where my research got crippled early due to the spread out cities, yet I didn't have pottery or fishing or other income generating techs to offset the maintenance. Or I didn't have copper and hadn't researched iron working yet,
So my general recommendation with the Incans at Emperor is to:
- Research Polytheism first, then start looking at income-producing techs. That means pottery, mining, and maybe fishing.
- Takeover one AI civ and stop. Closer is better.
I haven't figured out if I can win earlier using this strategy or not. Earlier religion is certainly good and having 2 developed cities early is fabulous. If nothing else, early conquest makes the Incans a fun variant to Catherine and Elizabeth.
I just won my first game on Prince using more or less this strat, and it was a damn exciting game. I played as Frederick, got stuck on an Island with the Americans who became good friends and the Japanese who were stuck on the bottom below the Americans being either Annoyed or Furious at me all game long.
My tech was very slow, I didnt reach Democracy until 1800+ and couldnt manage a full culture flip until like 1850+. I didnt have much of an army, however a Defensive Pact with the Americans and very good relations with the #1 (Chinese) kept me safe from harm. I managed to get the culture slider to 100 by turning my 4 biggest subcities to producing wealth only, incurring minimal losses of around 10-20 gold per turn. My 3 top cities were producing between 400-450 culture, and I had a stack of some 8 great artists to go culture bombing, however everyone around me was building space parts like mad.
In the end I had one city that just reached 50000 with culture bombing, and I had one Great artist left, which I kept stationary halfway between my #2 and #3 city, not daring to run either way in case a great artist would pop up in that city spontaneously. In the end, with 3 turns left for my #2 city, I ran it to my #3 city to sac it for a great work. The 3 last turns were nailbiting and toe-curling, praying for the 3rd legendary city with mass newly constructed space parts rolling down my screen. Then, in the final turn, right the second when I thought I had won, it said in the middle of my screen "Saladin has achieved Space Race victory!". OMG! OMG! OMG! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
However, when my turn actually started, the game said that I had achieved Cultural Victory and I got the victory movie. So, does anyone know what happened here? Im a bit confused
While I guess its a tie, Im claiming this as my first Prince victory anyway 
Well, I guess my message is thanks for the tips and ideas in this thread, cultural victories are great fun and Ive become a much better player for reading it. I almost feel bold enough to try Monarch, though I guess I should first try to achieve another win on Prince.
My tech was very slow, I didnt reach Democracy until 1800+ and couldnt manage a full culture flip until like 1850+. I didnt have much of an army, however a Defensive Pact with the Americans and very good relations with the #1 (Chinese) kept me safe from harm. I managed to get the culture slider to 100 by turning my 4 biggest subcities to producing wealth only, incurring minimal losses of around 10-20 gold per turn. My 3 top cities were producing between 400-450 culture, and I had a stack of some 8 great artists to go culture bombing, however everyone around me was building space parts like mad.
In the end I had one city that just reached 50000 with culture bombing, and I had one Great artist left, which I kept stationary halfway between my #2 and #3 city, not daring to run either way in case a great artist would pop up in that city spontaneously. In the end, with 3 turns left for my #2 city, I ran it to my #3 city to sac it for a great work. The 3 last turns were nailbiting and toe-curling, praying for the 3rd legendary city with mass newly constructed space parts rolling down my screen. Then, in the final turn, right the second when I thought I had won, it said in the middle of my screen "Saladin has achieved Space Race victory!". OMG! OMG! OMG! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
However, when my turn actually started, the game said that I had achieved Cultural Victory and I got the victory movie. So, does anyone know what happened here? Im a bit confused
While I guess its a tie, Im claiming this as my first Prince victory anyway Well, I guess my message is thanks for the tips and ideas in this thread, cultural victories are great fun and Ive become a much better player for reading it. I almost feel bold enough to try Monarch, though I guess I should first try to achieve another win on Prince.
I managed to get a cultural win on lmonarch with the Incas so here are a few comments on what I did and why:
I started in a god location. Flood plains and a wine resource by a river. The latter with Financial and starting with mysticism granted me buddhism and hinduism, both founded in Cuzco. This may be a bit lucky, hadn't I had a wine by river I wouldn't have tried to found buddhism. But it is very very important imo to found at least one religion, because of the income it provides. Why? When you say
So I got two early religions founded and Islam later on.
I played with 6 cities most of the game but managed to flip 3 more. Why?
I took a barbarian city a little inside the German territory. This city would become one of the three big cities, and flip some of the german cities.
Quechuas are also great because with them you just don't need archery. Archery is useful to defend against barbs, but quechuas are just better against barbs. Archers serve against other civs but you don't want to go to war or else, in the end game, the enemy will kill you as you'll be lagging in tech. A religion with many missionaries helps your religion spread and the other civs will like you. Trade whatever tech you have to make them convert if needed.
I made sure to get the Sistine Chapel and the Statue of Liberty (+1 specialist per city is good). Other wonders I didn't get but I wish I had built the Eiffel tower, this would have saved me one tech to get the last +50% culture building.
Overall, I think aggressive and quechuas are best used defensively if you want a culture victory. They help prevent barbarians from raiding your cottages, since you'll either be 2.2 (quechua) vs 2 (warrior) or vs archer (4.2 vs 3) and can take a barb city, which saves a settler and the corresponding city growth. The rest is being financial and having towns everywhere.
Note my civics choices were universal suffrage (production from town + rush from gold for wonders and late cathedrals), were emancipation (I don't need the extra artists from caste system - 2 or 4 is enough given you must feed them), free speech (a must, even though bureaucracy earlier was good), pacifism and free market (for trade). Late culture can flip other cities and provide you with the 8th (Forbidden palace) and 9th (additional cathedrals/mosques/stupas...) cities. This got me a win around 1950.
I started in a god location. Flood plains and a wine resource by a river. The latter with Financial and starting with mysticism granted me buddhism and hinduism, both founded in Cuzco. This may be a bit lucky, hadn't I had a wine by river I wouldn't have tried to found buddhism. But it is very very important imo to found at least one religion, because of the income it provides. Why? When you say
, I contend it is false. A great prophet is way better than both. I ran 100% culture in the end game and earned around 40 gpt running pacifism with several military units.
So I got two early religions founded and Islam later on.
I played with 6 cities most of the game but managed to flip 3 more. Why?
I took a barbarian city a little inside the German territory. This city would become one of the three big cities, and flip some of the german cities.
Quechuas are also great because with them you just don't need archery. Archery is useful to defend against barbs, but quechuas are just better against barbs. Archers serve against other civs but you don't want to go to war or else, in the end game, the enemy will kill you as you'll be lagging in tech. A religion with many missionaries helps your religion spread and the other civs will like you. Trade whatever tech you have to make them convert if needed.
I made sure to get the Sistine Chapel and the Statue of Liberty (+1 specialist per city is good). Other wonders I didn't get but I wish I had built the Eiffel tower, this would have saved me one tech to get the last +50% culture building.
Overall, I think aggressive and quechuas are best used defensively if you want a culture victory. They help prevent barbarians from raiding your cottages, since you'll either be 2.2 (quechua) vs 2 (warrior) or vs archer (4.2 vs 3) and can take a barb city, which saves a settler and the corresponding city growth. The rest is being financial and having towns everywhere.
Note my civics choices were universal suffrage (production from town + rush from gold for wonders and late cathedrals), were emancipation (I don't need the extra artists from caste system - 2 or 4 is enough given you must feed them), free speech (a must, even though bureaucracy earlier was good), pacifism and free market (for trade). Late culture can flip other cities and provide you with the 8th (Forbidden palace) and 9th (additional cathedrals/mosques/stupas...) cities. This got me a win around 1950.
LaMbaL said:Well, I guess my message is thanks for the tips and ideas in this thread, cultural victories are great fun and Ive become a much better player for reading it. I almost feel bold enough to try Monarch, though I guess I should first try to achieve another win on Prince.
From what I've read about your interpretation of GPs 'spontaneously appearing', I think sticking to Prince would be a far better idea.
Sir Aragorn
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2003
- Messages
- 30
Your strategy is reaaly good but I just cant use it....I will exaplain you why....
When I try achieve a cultural win, theres always an aggresive civ declaring me war all game long.
they destroy all my cottage and when I switch the slider to 100% culture, they take huge military advantage and then they declare war again and destroy all my cottage again....
I jsut dont understand how you can manage to keep the pace in this case.
When I try achieve a cultural win, theres always an aggresive civ declaring me war all game long.
they destroy all my cottage and when I switch the slider to 100% culture, they take huge military advantage and then they declare war again and destroy all my cottage again....
I jsut dont understand how you can manage to keep the pace in this case.
There are three aspects to not getting crushed by an AI:Sir Aragorn said:
1) Keep them happy. That means open borders as soon as you can, trading resources with them, gifting resources or tech to them when they demand, and gifting resources to them even when they don't ask (you can always get a resource back when you really need it). Once I flip the culture switch, happiness is no longer a problem, so I gift all my happiness resources (even when I only have 1) to the most aggressive AIs. I sometimes also switch out of Pacifism and into Free Religion late as well, if it appears that religion is causing a major issuee. Generally, the -4 from religion is offset by +10 or more for all the trade and gifts I have done throughout the game. I would look in some of the Diplomatic win threads for ideas on keeping everyone pleased with you.
2) Keep an army. If you research to Communism/Democracy (viable on Monarch and lower, but tough on Emperor and higher) to use the Kremlin to rush buildings (see the Catherine Cottage Rush thread for details), a late army is trivial. You are switching to 0% science anyway, so in every city that isn't either a cultre city (cottages) or great person city (farms), replace the cottages with watermills and workshops, go to state property, and suddenly you have multiple cities with a ton of production.
If you don't go to communism, it tougher to get the units you need. In this case, you really need a city with decent production dedicated to making units the whole game. You won't usually the best units, but having 2 axemen in every city up until gunpowder is usually plenty of deterrent to the AI. Post gunpowder, you need either military tradition (for cavalry) or chemistry (grenadiers) or rifling (riflemen). It's also useful to have 4 to 8 catapults lying around in order to suicide against stacks. Just build as many as you can from 1 or two cities and keep your fingers crossed. Since your cottages are critical in your 3 cultural city, don't let the enemy pillage these. If they come near these cities, take the battle to them. Grenadiers can kill tanks if necessary. You just need a lot of them (and it's a bit harder with the newest patch).
3) If all else fails, fight a holding action and first opportunity you get, sue for peace by offering one of your non-culture cities.
revolution210
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2005
- Messages
- 4
I used this strategy, it works! I had quite a few problems with finishing games but version 1.52 cleared most of them up. It was quite fun actually. I did a huge map, 18 civs, and 5 continents. Turned out me and the Spanish were the only ones on mine, and they declared war on me, so I took em out. I had the whole contenent to myself, so I crushed the rest of the barbarians, founded 4 religions and used them for my culture boom. I finished in 1852 AD, which is the quickest I've ever won so far. I was playing on epic, and I noticed the culture per city you need is 75000. That kinda sucked, but with the culture I was producing, I would have reached 100000 by 1900 AD in all three cities.
If anyone wants me to post this tell me how and I'll upload the game to the website, if they allow that.
If anyone wants me to post this tell me how and I'll upload the game to the website, if they allow that.
walkerjks said:
I'm current on the thread to this point, but I've some comments to make that won't wait until the end.
---
First, "THANKS!" This has been a great read. Useful and thought-provoking.
Second, I think it's ironic that Pacificism requires a religion for which others of conflicting religions will go to war with you
I'm of the opinion that much of the forum over-emphasizes and mis-applies religions. I think Pacifism is an optional component for this strategy. I'll defend that in a moment.My credentials. I play Monarch, single-player, small maps, 6 AI opponents, random personalities, normal speed. I average around 11000 for score. I favor Mansa overall, but I like Qin, Catherine, and Elizabeth.
My caveat is that I'm not a consistent winner on Monarch, but I also like to try a lot of theories out instead of focusing on "teh win." It's not uncommon for me to scout out a better starting location in my games and settle 2-3 turns later "just to see if I can still win" (guarantees that you've got a pretty optimal 2nd site that you just vacated and puts a lot of border pressure on the unlucky neighbor).
Premises:
a) Adopting ANY state religion pisses off the AIs who invariably will adopt different religions either because they found them, are coerced into accepting another, or because they are just looking for an excuse. I often have cultural wins without EVER adopting a state religion.
b) Founding a religion ALWAYS has value, if for no other reason than it narrows the options for the AI opponents. If you can horde religions, the AIs will tend to converge on the same 2-3 religions which allows you to pick a side OR bribe cultures to convert so you can safely pick one.
A world at peace with no negative diplomacy will leave you alone as you spirit away the cultural win. A world at war will have ******** progress but increases the risk of military reprisals. If you can restrict AI state religions and pick the stronger side, Pacifism works wonders. If the political landscape is volatile, go Free Religion. Don't Open Borders everyone if things start to sour.
c) Capitulate to tribute for diplomatic value. Overtrade techs for diplomatic value. This will cause the AI eye to turn to other cultures for conquest. Let them fight it out. Sometimes, you can get a free tech down the road in return that you can then spread around for parity. If you do not pick a state religion, you have greater lattitude to bribe one AI to attack another, which worsens their relations and makes it less likely there will be a coalition against your aims.
d) The GPP benefit of Pacifism is fabulous, but you can still do fine with JUST Philosophical. A few choice wonders will help. Mansa is uniquely suited to take advantage of marble (mining->masonry+wheel & mining->BW for chop-rushing) for early Oracle/Parthenon... he also handles and executes rushes as well as anybody if the AI starts too close.
A lot of beginning and intermediate players fail to appreciate the power of Caste System for increasing GPP as well as culture. You can selectively and efficiently starve cities a bit (don't drop pop) for better output.
e) I understand the Great Artist hoarding but while you can't identify your 3rd cultural city with 100% accuracy, surely you can identify 2 of them. If you rush, the enemy capital is a near mortal lock for the 3rd.
The additional benefit from the Artist Super Specialist can be employed early on 1 non-capital city for major cumulative benefit. Since you're not usually getting to 9 cities, this allows you to focus your cathedrals on the other two cities and fill in the third city (I recommend your capital) if/when 9 cities becomes a reality. Lastly, your late game Great Artists will never be as valuable as Specialists, so absolutely hoard them to cap off lagging cities.
A single Great Merchant can ease your money woes for the rest of the game. Don't be afraid of Great Lighthouse. Since it does not have a commodity (stone, marble, etc) attached to it, you can nearly always pick this up with Qin or Elizabeth.
f) Whenever you get a religion spread to you, DROP EVERYTHING. Monastery it and spread it quickly. I will usually spread it to a city with fewest religions (for best success) and then let both cities spam missionaries to my culture cities until it takes and I can monastery it there. I avoid Scientific Method as long as humanly possible.
---
Hopefully, these thoughts have contributed to an already useful thread.
Cheers!
eddie_verdde
Warlord
Hello,
I'm playing:
Version 1.52
Noble dificulty level
Marathon Mode
Huge Map
18 civs
All victory types set
Right now I have 3 cities with more than 100,000 culture points and I would like to know how much more will I need in order to achieve a cultural victory. I know than in a standard game the value is 30,000 for the 3 cities and I was wondering what is the value required in non-standard games.
Thanks in advance.
Happy New Year to everyone.
I'm playing:
Version 1.52
Noble dificulty level
Marathon Mode
Huge Map
18 civs
All victory types set
Right now I have 3 cities with more than 100,000 culture points and I would like to know how much more will I need in order to achieve a cultural victory. I know than in a standard game the value is 30,000 for the 3 cities and I was wondering what is the value required in non-standard games.
Thanks in advance.
Happy New Year to everyone.
DrunkenSettler
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2005
- Messages
- 6
Simple early sure fire technique for Monarch.
1. Indian - Gandhi = Fast worker and 50% wonder production.
2. You start with Myst. Go for Poly, establish Hindu
3. Add techs based on resources.
4. Nail down Priesthood. Build Oracle while researching writing.
5. BANG! You now have a free tech. I take code of laws and discover confucionism.
6. I now have established 2 religions. I have the Oracle, I am finishing construction of the Parthenon. I am now generating great prophets and using them to build their special building. This is all done before bronze and iron. I change civics to Caste System, stretch for pacifism. Ring the epic bell and I am now kicking out GP like no ones business.
This works every time.
1. Indian - Gandhi = Fast worker and 50% wonder production.
2. You start with Myst. Go for Poly, establish Hindu
3. Add techs based on resources.
4. Nail down Priesthood. Build Oracle while researching writing.
5. BANG! You now have a free tech. I take code of laws and discover confucionism.
6. I now have established 2 religions. I have the Oracle, I am finishing construction of the Parthenon. I am now generating great prophets and using them to build their special building. This is all done before bronze and iron. I change civics to Caste System, stretch for pacifism. Ring the epic bell and I am now kicking out GP like no ones business.
This works every time.
I just finished a deity win that simply reinforces the fact that different games require different strategies. In this case, I only had 3 cities total, didn't found any religions, and in the end I didn't build any cathedrals (I should have skipped music as it turned out). In fact, I didn't research Nationalism, so I had no cultural bonuses other than Free Speech. I did build the great lighthouse.
Almost 57% percent of required culture came from 16 great artists (quick speed) producing great works.
Of the 43% that came from per turn culture, the per turn breakdown at the end is as follows:
7.5% Commerce from base trade route
7.5% Commerce from currency trade route
14% Commerce from great lighthouse trade routes
4% Culture from Great Lighthouse
27% Base commerce from worked tiles
6% Bonus commerce from worked tiles due to financial trait
12% Buildings (non-World Wonders)
1% Religion
1% Conversion of hammers into culture (city building culture).
20% Artist specialists
The overall affect of the financial trait (approximately 2.6% of total culture) is the lowest in any game I have won. The effect of philosphical trait (3 extra great artists, or 10.7% of total culture) was the highest I've seen. The creative trait might have actually been worth more extra culture (about 3%) than financial in this case, though direct comparisons are difficult since financial trait also means you research a bit faster, so you get to the end game sooner.
Almost 57% percent of required culture came from 16 great artists (quick speed) producing great works.
Of the 43% that came from per turn culture, the per turn breakdown at the end is as follows:
7.5% Commerce from base trade route
7.5% Commerce from currency trade route
14% Commerce from great lighthouse trade routes
4% Culture from Great Lighthouse
27% Base commerce from worked tiles
6% Bonus commerce from worked tiles due to financial trait
12% Buildings (non-World Wonders)
1% Religion
1% Conversion of hammers into culture (city building culture).
20% Artist specialists
The overall affect of the financial trait (approximately 2.6% of total culture) is the lowest in any game I have won. The effect of philosphical trait (3 extra great artists, or 10.7% of total culture) was the highest I've seen. The creative trait might have actually been worth more extra culture (about 3%) than financial in this case, though direct comparisons are difficult since financial trait also means you research a bit faster, so you get to the end game sooner.
DaveMcW
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2002
- Messages
- 6,489
What was your finish date? It seems that finishing very early reduces the value of cottages, since they have less time to grow.
A'AbarachAmadan has an interesting writeup on a cultural victory in GOTM1.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?postcount=304&p=3514854
A'AbarachAmadan has an interesting writeup on a cultural victory in GOTM1.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?postcount=304&p=3514854
Thanks for the link - I hadn't seen it. The win date was around 1975. Late, but the map was deliberately selected to slow down the AI (Archipelago with tiny islands) while providing me excess food in the form of seafood resources (hence the 16 great artists).
The general advice for how to use great artists is generally to use them as artist super specialists "early" and use them for great works "late". As far as I know, no one has ever properly defined when exactly the cutover is. Based on the game I just finished, I will attempt to do so. Note that specific dates are very much based on when exactly you will win and the speed you are playing on. So rather than include dates, I will simply include the turn number for each given event. Note that this game was a marathon speed game, so for epic games, you can divide the turn number by 2 (more or less) and for normal speed, you can divide the turn number by 3 (more or less).
Here were the important events in the game:
1 - game starts - all cities at cultural multiplier of 1x
418 - liberalism discovered - free speech adopted - all cities at cultural multiplier of 2x (+100%)
531 - Kremlin built - cities still at 2x, but rush building started
561 - Rush building ended - core cities at 4x multiplier (+300%)
622 - Small expansion due to neew religions - core cities at 4.5x multiplier (+350%)
725 - Cultural victory
The above oversimplifies the situation by a bit - the cities weren't uniformaly at that multiplier, but the core 3 cities averaged that multiplier. Additionally, all were within 0.5x of the average, so it a reasonable simplification.
Now, working backwards, we can determine the exact turn that an artist super specialist is better (for culture only) then a great work. At marathon speed, the great work is worth +12000 culture, so the cumulative culture must exceed that number for the super specialist to be better.
Without the Sistine Chapel, turn 411 is the magic number. This is 7x12x1 + 143x12x2 + 61x12x4 + 103x12x4.5 = 12006. That turn or before, the great artist should definitely be used as a super specialist.
With the Sistine Chapel, turn 486 is the magic number. This is 75x14x2 + 61x14x4 + 103x14x4.5 = 12005.
In a marathon game, that is 550 AD and 925 AD, respectively.
Of course, this doesn't tell the complete story. If you build The Pyramids and are operating under Representation, the super specialist will give you an extra +3 science/turn. In every case, the super specialist will also give you +3 gold/turn. For most of my games, where I have no religion to fund my maintenance, +3 gold/turn allows me to run the culture slider a little higher. Maybe not initially, but I always try to time the end of the game to run at 100% (since I will have the highest multipliers at the end of the game) and end the game with as close to 0 gold as possible. So +3 gold/turn in many respects is the equivalent of +3 commerce/turn. Once I hit liberalism, that's (more or less) +3 base culture/turn. This oversimplifies again, since things like banks will up the +3 gold/turn slightly, but it's a reasonable approximation.
Refiguring the turn numbers counting the +3 gold/turn from the super specialist as +3 commerce/turn we get:
Without the Sistine Chapel, turn 528 (1054 AD) and with the Sistine Chapel, turn 561 (1120 AD) were the magic dates for this particular game.
Here were the important events in the game:
1 - game starts - all cities at cultural multiplier of 1x
418 - liberalism discovered - free speech adopted - all cities at cultural multiplier of 2x (+100%)
531 - Kremlin built - cities still at 2x, but rush building started
561 - Rush building ended - core cities at 4x multiplier (+300%)
622 - Small expansion due to neew religions - core cities at 4.5x multiplier (+350%)
725 - Cultural victory
The above oversimplifies the situation by a bit - the cities weren't uniformaly at that multiplier, but the core 3 cities averaged that multiplier. Additionally, all were within 0.5x of the average, so it a reasonable simplification.
Now, working backwards, we can determine the exact turn that an artist super specialist is better (for culture only) then a great work. At marathon speed, the great work is worth +12000 culture, so the cumulative culture must exceed that number for the super specialist to be better.
Without the Sistine Chapel, turn 411 is the magic number. This is 7x12x1 + 143x12x2 + 61x12x4 + 103x12x4.5 = 12006. That turn or before, the great artist should definitely be used as a super specialist.
With the Sistine Chapel, turn 486 is the magic number. This is 75x14x2 + 61x14x4 + 103x14x4.5 = 12005.
In a marathon game, that is 550 AD and 925 AD, respectively.
Of course, this doesn't tell the complete story. If you build The Pyramids and are operating under Representation, the super specialist will give you an extra +3 science/turn. In every case, the super specialist will also give you +3 gold/turn. For most of my games, where I have no religion to fund my maintenance, +3 gold/turn allows me to run the culture slider a little higher. Maybe not initially, but I always try to time the end of the game to run at 100% (since I will have the highest multipliers at the end of the game) and end the game with as close to 0 gold as possible. So +3 gold/turn in many respects is the equivalent of +3 commerce/turn. Once I hit liberalism, that's (more or less) +3 base culture/turn. This oversimplifies again, since things like banks will up the +3 gold/turn slightly, but it's a reasonable approximation.
Refiguring the turn numbers counting the +3 gold/turn from the super specialist as +3 commerce/turn we get:
Without the Sistine Chapel, turn 528 (1054 AD) and with the Sistine Chapel, turn 561 (1120 AD) were the magic dates for this particular game.
I just got a cultural win on Emporer (speed normal, everything standard) using the techniques you have described in this thread walkerjks. I'm really proud of this win because all the odds were against me from the beginning of the game: 1) started alone on an island surrounded completely by ocean, 2) only 1 single happiness resource (silver), and 3) was using the Kublai Khan of the Mongols (not exactly a great culture win leader). I wasn't originally intending on going for a cultural victory, of course, but since I was stuck on an island I didn't have much of a choice since domination and space race victories were out of the question.
My culture build started really late because I didn't get a religion until around 1500AD. I got 2 religions the entire game which allowed me to build 4 cathedrals because I had a total of 7 cities. Great artists weren't built until after I cranked up my culture slider because I was way behind in techs and I needed every commerce point to get the techs I needed until that point. 2 of my 3 legendary cities were commerce cities, and the other was a artist specialist city. I had 3 of my non-culture cities focusing on great artist building after I set the culture slider to 80-90%, and they provided me with 9 great artists by the end of the game. Finished the game in 1950, with the AI still having to build 3 more spaceship parts.
Starting on an island has many big disadvantages (limited resources, no external trade until Astronomy, no religions), but the advantage is that you don't really need to worry about your military or harassment by other civs. I didn't fight in a single war throughout the entire game.
What I'm trying to say is that even with isolated island starts on emporer, cultural wins are still highly possible.
My culture build started really late because I didn't get a religion until around 1500AD. I got 2 religions the entire game which allowed me to build 4 cathedrals because I had a total of 7 cities. Great artists weren't built until after I cranked up my culture slider because I was way behind in techs and I needed every commerce point to get the techs I needed until that point. 2 of my 3 legendary cities were commerce cities, and the other was a artist specialist city. I had 3 of my non-culture cities focusing on great artist building after I set the culture slider to 80-90%, and they provided me with 9 great artists by the end of the game. Finished the game in 1950, with the AI still having to build 3 more spaceship parts.
Starting on an island has many big disadvantages (limited resources, no external trade until Astronomy, no religions), but the advantage is that you don't really need to worry about your military or harassment by other civs. I didn't fight in a single war throughout the entire game.
What I'm trying to say is that even with isolated island starts on emporer, cultural wins are still highly possible.
Chillaxation
Warlord
I just got my second win on Prince and am 2-0 at that level, this time by culture. This strategy is excellent, the article well written - and the thread now surprisingly augmented with great information. Walker, if you have any extra time, could you break down the cutoff dates for all game speeds?
