A Tale of Two Teddies

[bengalryan9]

OK, so we know that there is a second version ("persona") of Teddy Roosevelt coming as part of the Frontier Pass for those who buy the whole thing. We know that he is being called "Rough Rider Teddy" or something similar. We've been told that he will have not only a different appearance, but that he will also have a new leader ability. But here's the thing...

The current Theodore Roosevelt in game has the "Roosevelt Corollary" as his leader ability. This ability gives Teddy's units +5 combat strength on his own continent, +1 appeal to national parks, and perhaps most glaringly of all, access to the actual Rough Rider unit. Doesn't it seem like this ability fits better with Rough Rider Teddy? Because that's what it seems like to me... it wouldn't make a ton of sense for Rough Rider Teddy *not* to have these traits, so maybe original Teddy (call him "President Teddy"?) gets something new? Or maybe America's abilities are getting shifted around/re-designed a bit?

The way I look at it, there are a few possibilities:
1) Original Teddy stays the same and Rough Rider Teddy does get a completely new ability... even if it maybe doesn't make sense to have it this way.
2) Original Teddy gets a new leader ability (maybe related to trust-busting or fighting corruption if those mechanics were to be added?) and Rough Rider Teddy gets the Roosevelt Corollary... but since not everyone will have both Teddies, is that fair?
3) Original Teddy stays the same for people who don't have the persona pack, but the persona pack switches them around for those who have it.
4) America's abilities are shifted around a bit... you'd think the Rough Rider would have to be a UU, but what would that mean for the Mustang (which is considered a weak unit, but do we really want it completely gone)? Maybe some of the other aspects of the leader or civ abilities get flipped around too?

I'm curious what others think. The two Catherines seem pretty cut and dry (granted we know more about the new Cathy's LA than we do Teddy), but Teddy seems a bit more complicated to me... thoughts?

 

[ferretbacon]

The same thing occurred to me. Perhaps the Rough Rider unit gets shifted to Rough Rider Teddy and Original Teddy gets something to supplement "Roosevelt Corollary."

No matter what, Rough Rider Teddy needs to have the Rough Rider unit. Maybe they both get it?

 

[AriochIV]

Rough Rider Teddy may have the same leader bonus, or a modified one that also includes the Rough Rider unit. I very much doubt they would change the "normal" Teddy.

I strongly suspect that the changes to the alternate "personas" are more cosmetic than in terms of gameplay, despite the claims.

 

[bengalryan9]

Rough Rider Teddy may have the same leader bonus, or a modified one that also includes the Rough Rider unit. I very much doubt they would change the "normal" Teddy.

I strongly suspect that the changes to the alternate "personas" are more cosmetic than in terms of gameplay, despite the claims.

I don't know... that would be pretty disappointing, and we know Catherine's new leader ability is completely different from the one she's already got. Both Catherines are going to play differently, I would hope the same as true for both Teddies.

 

[The googles do nothing]

Having a loyalty on home continent for 'Tall City' Teddy and the combat strength bonus for Rough and Ready, er Rider, Teddy.

 

[sonicmyst]

I believe the bonus to Rough Rider Teddy revolves around his continent peace-keeping ability (maybe additional defense and attack in same continent?) and the unique rough rider units will remain unchanged.

 

[iammaxhailme]

Despite what they said about catherine "using luxuries" somehow, I think they will be purely cosmetic reskins. The luxuries thing is probably a reference to chateaux wanting to be next to luxuries.

 

[Zaarin]

Despite what they said about catherine "using luxuries" somehow, I think they will be purely cosmetic reskins. The luxuries thing is probably a reference to chateaux wanting to be next to luxuries.

They specifically said the alternate personas would have different abilities and agendas.

 

[bengalryan9]

They specifically said the alternate personas would have different abilities and agendas.

Exactly, and not only that, they said that Magnificence Cathy's leader agenda was something where luxuries gave her additional culture/tourism... she'd be like a cultural Montezuma. That would play pretty differently from the current Cathy. FWIW, Cathy gets no bonuses to culture/tourism for building chateaus next to luxuries even if that is how you'd want to interpret it (she gets gold).

"EXCLUSIVE BONUS: TEDDY ROOSEVELT AND CATHERINE DE MEDICI PERSONA PACKS
Two of Civilization VI's leaders are transformed with a new look and new abilities when you lead America and France! “Rough Rider Teddy” excels at keeping the peace on his home continent, and “Magnificence Catherine” can use Luxuries to overwhelm the world with Culture and Tourism. Each Persona Pack contains a brand-new take on a favorite leader, with a new leader model and background, new gameplay bonuses, and an updated agenda that reflect the changes to the leader’s personality. The Persona Packs are available exclusively to owners of the New Frontier Pass and will be delivered with the second add-on pack."

As I've said, though, Rough Rider Teddy sounds like he should get the "Roosevelt Corollary" leader ability based on this description. Combat strength bonus on his own continent, plus rough riders which get a bonus to culture for kills on their own continent... sounds like someone who "excels at keeping the peace on his home continent".

 

[nzcamel]

I like the sound of all this, and I will get the whole pack in advance to gain these alternate Cat & Teddy's. But I'm guessing the only change happens for people who do buy upfront. i.e. if normal Teddy loses the Rough Rider, that won't happen with players who don't get the frontier pass in full upfront. Their normal Teddy will still have that.
Talking of which...when can we buy this thing!? lol

 

[Cedbird77]

I believe the bonus to Rough Rider Teddy revolves around his continent peace-keeping ability (maybe additional defense and attack in same continent?) and the unique rough rider units will remain unchanged.

I agree. Original Teddy stays the same. They are going to be creative with this Add Ons. Adding new flavor. Even if it is only New Abilities for the same unit. In this case the Rough Riders.

 

[bbbt]

I feel like his combat bonus is sort of the opposite of keeping the peace. It more encourages you to conquer your home continent.

Giving the significant complaints about the AI capturing city states (both in general, and when in a friendship/alliance), there could be some fixes to address that in a patch and this could take advantage of it.

I.e. something along the lines of abilities for defending city states on your continent being attacked by other civs.

The Rough Riders were a volunteer militia - there could be something related to raising up military from population under certain circumstances.

There's a ton of options.

 

[Inhalaattori]

I do believe they have also changed the original abilities of Teddy in some way. It might be possible that they gave "normal Teddy" more buffs to national parks and tourism and then gave "rough rider Teddy" more abilities connected to keeping the peace on the continent. So they might have split his original abilities to two different "Personas". With Catherine I think "normal Catherine" will keep her espionage buffs and new "Cultural Catherine" will get cultural buffs from luxuries. Seems actually pretty interesting. Im pretty sure their goal is to give us two "new leaders" from a game play point of view without giving us actually new leaders.

 

[Equilin]

I feel like his combat bonus is sort of the opposite of keeping the peace. It more encourages you to conquer your home continent.

Well that is keeping peace, just in a different way than people might think

 

[Lord Lakely]

I think it mostly represents the fact that Roosevelt, at this point, is a hodgepodge of different traits that don't quite synergize together. You have +5 strength on the home continent, rough riders and a boost to national parks? huh? How do these even work together.

My suspicion is that the devs will split up Roosevelt's traits, so you can choose between national park spamming environmentalist Collorary Roosevelt and the intervention-minded Big Stick Roosevelt. One focused on tourism, the other on early game domination, a chance which would allow America players to specialize themselves in either Culture OR domination instead of being sorta good, but not great at both.

Not sure what the deal with CdM is or why *she*, specifically needs a new reskin - I'd rather have seen one for Cleopatra, who like Roosevelt is a similar mismatch of several ideas that don't quite work together, but I suppose with a new mode called 'SECRET SOCIETIES' they might want to put the staple Espionage leader into the spotlight? I think? Or maybe Ed just has a crush on her, dunno.

 

[bengalryan9]

My suspicion is that the devs will split up Roosevelt's traits, so you can choose between national park spamming environmentalist Collorary Roosevelt and the intervention-minded Big Stick Roosevelt. One focused on tourism, the other on early game domination, a chance which would allow America players to specialize themselves in either Culture OR domination instead of being sorta good, but not great at both.

I would definitely welcome a more culturally focused America. Cheaper naturalists would be nice. The problem with trying to focus America towards national parks at this point is that Canada gets a lot of the traits you'd really want - being able to gold buy or produce naturalists (mounties) would fit perfectly here.

 

[AsH2]

I think it mostly represents the fact that Roosevelt, at this point, is a hodgepodge of different traits that don't quite synergize together. You have +5 strength on the home continent, rough riders and a boost to national parks? huh? How do these even work together.
..

You conquer and raze cities to make room for national parks..

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

First, the current 'Rough Rider' UU is dubious: the actual unit was the 1st Volunteer Cavalry, an amateur outfit whose one and only combat was NOT on their home continent!

So, one possibility is that 'Rough Rider Teddy' will get a revamped and more accurate Rough Rider UU.

Another possible UU for TR would a naval unit: he was, as much as any other American politician, the one who started the USA building 'modern' Battleships (well, modern for 1890 - they would still be Ironclads in Civ VI terms)

 

[comatosedragon]

[old man paranoia warning]

Even though the press release is worded "Two of Civilization VI's leaders are transformed with a new look and new abilities when you lead America and France..." I really hope these alternate takes can be randomly chosen as AI opponents. It would be silly not to.

(I guess they kind of have to, because there are no "agendas" for the human player.)

 

[Equilin]

Another possible UU for TR would a naval unit: he was, as much as any other American politician, the one who started the USA building 'modern' Battleships (well, modern for 1890 - they would still be Ironclads in Civ VI terms)

Great White Fleet?