A unified Scandinavia

[GamezRule]

Scandinavia as a unified power might be able to swing some overseas colonies, but I don't see them as being a serious world power.

 

[Ingvina Freyr]

Nationalism rarely pops up in a form where peoples of several languages, and don't learn each others' en masse, but still want to unite for some other reason. Scandinavia in particular has four languages.

Scandinavian, Icelandic, Finnish and Sami... yes that's four, correct. Then there are a lot of dialects of these languages as well.

But as Dachs said, what the general populace wants very rarely has a good much to do with the policy of expansionists, so take that as you will.

At present in Scandinavia it's vice versa as the general populace wants it but the politicians don't (or can't bother).

 

[Louis XXIV]

^ How different are Scandinavian languages from each other? I wonder how it's comparable to northern and southern Italian "dialects" or the Sicilian "dialect" (which is absolutely incomprehensible).

The 'people of Italy' didn't really have a lot to do with unification one way or another. French armies underwrote the unification of the north, Piedmontese armies enforced it, and a few thousand men with unusually colored clothes added the south. What the Italian people wanted - insofar as there even was an Italian people (and there might still not be one today) - didn't enter into the equation.

Well, there were Italian nationalist movements in the past and Garibaldi in the south was an Italian nationalist. He only supported the Piedmontese monarchy because he viewed it as the best way to unite Italy. Now whether or not the general population supported Garibaldi I suppose is something for debate. Either Italian Nationalism in general or, at least Garibaldi, changed the dynamic of Piedmont conquest. Vittorio Emanuele seemed content to enlarge the holdings of Piedmont. The plebiscite and creation of "Italy" seemed more a nod to at least Garibaldi (if not national sentiment). Certainly, the moving of the capitol to Florence created political costs.

 

[Love]

^ How different are Scandinavian languages from each other? I wonder how it's comparable to northern and southern Italian "dialects" or the Sicilian "dialect" (which is absolutely incomprehensible).

You understand eachother (if we're talking norwegan, danish and swedish that is)

 

[Dachs]

Well, there were Italian nationalist movements in the past and Garibaldi in the south was an Italian nationalist. He only supported the Piedmontese monarchy because he viewed it as the best way to unite Italy. Now whether or not the general population supported Garibaldi I suppose is something for debate. Either Italian Nationalism in general or, at least Garibaldi, changed the dynamic of Piedmont conquest. Vittorio Emanuele seemed content to enlarge the holdings of Piedmont. The plebiscite and creation of "Italy" seemed more a nod to at least Garibaldi (if not national sentiment). Certainly, the moving of the capitol to Florence created political costs.

Yes, but none of that really impacts my point, which was that there still really weren't very many Italian nationalists in Italy and it was not mass support of Italian nationalism that was the driving force behind the creation of the Italian kingdom. One man and the equivalent of a brigade do not a nationwide movement make.

Of course, I'm not saying that Italian nationalism wasn't relevant to the creation of Italy; it obviously was. A very relative few adhered to it - they were just some of the few that actually mattered.

 

[Ingvina Freyr]

^ How different are Scandinavian languages from each other? I wonder how it's comparable to northern and southern Italian "dialects" or the Sicilian "dialect" (which is absolutely incomprehensible).

I don't know about Italian, but you could compare differences in pronounciation in Swedish, Norwegian and Danish to those of different English speaking regions (perhaps England, Scotland and America). According to an organisation for the unification of Scandinavia there are about 300 words that differ out of a vocabulary of 50-60 000 words.

I need to correct myself regarding the number of languages. I forgot about the Greenlanders who of course have their own language. Then there are the people of the Färoe islands who IMO are speaking a dialect not to far from Icelandic.

 

[Louis XXIV]

You understand eachother (if we're talking norwegan, danish and swedish that is)

I'd say that's roughly similar to Italian dialects. Of course, the distinction between a dialect and a language is often a political decision.

Yes, but none of that really impacts my point, which was that there still really weren't very many Italian nationalists in Italy and it was not mass support of Italian nationalism that was the driving force behind the creation of the Italian kingdom. One man and the equivalent of a brigade do not a nationwide movement make.

I'm curious if the Italian passivity meant an Italian indifference, though. Were there a lot of people who privately wanted unification but didn't want to do anything about it?

 

[Dachs]

I'm curious if the Italian passivity meant an Italian indifference, though. Were there a lot of people who privately wanted unification but didn't want to do anything about it?

Can you look at the history of Italy since 1860 and say that with a straight face?

 

[Leifmk]

You understand eachother (if we're talking norwegan, danish and swedish that is)

Well, nobody actually understands spoken Danish, although the written form of the language is no problem at all.

Especially between Norwegian and Swedish, it's more like someone's taken a huge continuum of dialects and labeled the ones on the western side of a somewhat arbitrary border as "Norwegian" and the rest as "Swedish". The border has been porous since before there was a border and Norwegian dialects in most border areas sound a lot like the Swedish one just across it.

In the modern era, I feel like we missed an opportunity after WW2. There was some talk of a Scandinavian defense union then, which would have been like a greater Sweden in terms of global politics (i.e. neutral as hell, but really much more friendly to the West than to the Soviet bloc). If that had happened we might have grown closer into some kind of mini-EU-like confederation, etc.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Can you look at the history of Italy since 1860 and say that with a straight face?

Well, the first notable event after unification was a massive emigration, but I don't know if that's necessarily conclusive on the issue. If you look at Italy's efforts after unification, they seemed fairly driven by nationalism and acquisition of other territories with Italians in them.

 

[Hakim]

I've got the impression that Scandinavism was in full swing before the Danish war with the Preussians. The conflict was a test, Sweden failed by not providing support and that killed the sentiment.

 

[LamaGT]

my history book says that the people actively partecipated in the '48 indipendence war but anyway it's true, even today italian people don't really recognise themselves as italians: infact the "Lega Nord" movement which promotes north italy secessions has some followers, even though most of the people i know consider them as shitheads(i live in turin, btw)
Dialectual difference aren't that small, i can easily understand written sicilian but i don't understand a single word of a sicilian or naplish when he starts talking

 

[Louis XXIV]

Lega Nord really should not be used as evidence of national identity. There are crackpots in every nation-state. There are still secessionists in the United States and it would be absurd to suggest that we are not one nation by this point.

 

[Racsoviale]

hakim: I have always loved that picture. It shows the romanticized vision of a unified Scandinavia as well as where the problem with such an idea stems(Denmark in the middle I imagine would piss of the Swedes to no end and if Sweden had been in the middle it would piss of the Danes)

I just recently read a bit in a book called "The Danish Empire" about the Kalmar Union and it seems to have been the only possible time a unification would have happened. Unfortunately the events during that period also shows how impossible all the parts involved were. The danes spent more time putting down swedish rebellions than anything else and the swedes were too pissed of about not being top dog to see any permanent union as a possible outcome.

The stubbornness of the two major powers in the baltics seem to have been the natural order of things, and neither side never acknowledging the other being stronger and thus ensuring a change in the powerstruggle seems to be where the problem lies.


And to accompany Hakims picture here is a little poem by Hans Christian Andersen.

H.C. Andersen digt 1837

"Jeg er en Skandinav!"

Vi er eet Folk, vi kaldes Skandinaver,
I trende Riger er vor Hjemstavn deelt;
Men mellem Nutids store Himmel-Gaver
Er den: vort Hjerte voxer til et Heelt!
Lad være glemt, hvis os en Uret skete;
Tidsaanden, som en luttret Margarethe,
Forener os, den trefold Kraft forlener,
Selv Sproget os forener.
Paa Fjeld, i Skov og ved det natblaa Hav,
Jeg jubler høit: jeg er en Skandinav!

Kom med paa Dovre-Fjeld, hvor Jøklen ligger,
Hør Fossens Torden, Sæterpigens Sang;
Den friske Sø- og Bjerg-Luft jeg inddrikker,
Jeg gaaer, hvor Nordens Guder gik engang;
Og hvis om Kraftens Mænd jeg hører heller,
Om Olaf, Hakon, Harald man fortæller;
Til Fjelds! til Fjelds! med stærke Klippeborge
Staaer du, mit gamle Norge,
I Glands af Nordlys, ved et stormfuldt Hav;
Jeg elsker dig! jeg er en Skandinav!

Kom paa den snelle Baad, lad Dampen virke,
See Floder, store Søer er vor Vei!
Seil over Bjerget, hvor de høie Birke
Udaande Duft! O, Sverrig elsker jeg!
Herfra lød Gustav Adolfs Navn paa Jorden,
Han var den sidste Ridder her i Norden.
Lidt Barkbrød, og den svenske Bonde synger,
Ham Nøisomhed forynger;
Han synger Sangene, ham Skjalden gav;
Og vi med ham: Jeg er en Skandinav!

En frisk Bouquet af Kløver, Korn og Humle
Er Danmark! kom og see vor Bøgeskov!
Paa Sletten her sig Aandens Sønner tumle,
Det dundrer lystigt under Hestens Hov;
Til Videnskab og Kunst vi snelt udride,
Europa om det lille Land skal vide,
Ved Thorvaldsen dets Navn fra Stenen klinger,
Alt Tycho gav det Vinger.
En Rose Danmark er! syng, Skandinav,
Om Aandens Blomst midt i det barske Hav!

Lad ei den skjønne Enighed forsvinde,
Norsk, Svensk og Dansk hinanden række Haand;
De gamle Folkesange os forbinde,
I Melodien er et kraftigt Baand.
Af Enighedens Sæd kun godt man høster,
Vi skue kjækt mod Vester og mod Øster
I Fryd og Sorg! O, her er godt at være!
Her leve vore Kjære!
Fra Gran og Birk og Bøg, vidt over Hav,
Lyd Glædes Sang: jeg er en Skandinav!



English from google translate(with minor adjustments by me)


Danish to English translation
Hans Christian Andersen poem 1837

"I am a Scandinavian"

We are one people, we are called Scandinavians,
In Encouragingly kingdoms are our kindred divided;
But among today's major sky-Gifts
Is it: our heart grows to a whole!
Do not forget us if an injustice has occurred;
Spirit of the age, as a purified Margarethe,
Unites us, the triple strength impart,
Even language unites us.
On the mountain, in woods and by the nightblue Sea
I rejoice aloud: I am a Scandinavian!

Come on Dovre Fjord, where extinguished volcanoes lie
Hear the waterfall thunder mountain shepherdesses Sang;
The fresh Lake and Mountain Air I ingest,
I go where the Nordic gods once walked;
And if the Freedom of Men I hear either,
About Olaf, Hakon, Harald one tells;
The mountains! the mountains! with strong rock castles
Stand you, my old Norway
The splendor of the Northern Lights, at a stormy sea;
I love you! I am a Scandinavian!

Come on the rear set trigger boat, let the steam work,
See Rivers, Great Lakes is our way!
Sail over the mountain, where the tall birches
Breathe fragrance! Oh, Sweden I love!
From here came Gustav Adolf's name on earth
He was the last knight in Scandinavia.
Little Bark Bread, and the Swedish peasant sings
Rejuvenates him contentment;
He sings songs, minstrel gave him;
And we with him: I am a Scandinavian!

A fresh bouquet of clover, corn and hops
Is Denmark! Come and see our Bøgeskov!
On the plains here in spirit sons tumble
It blows merrily under the horse's Hey;
The Science and Art we snelt udride,
Europe on the small country must know
At Thorvaldsen its name from the stone blades,
Everything Tycho gave it wings.
A Rose is Denmark! sing, Scandinavians,
About Spirit blossom amid the harsh sea!

Let not the beautiful unity disappear
Norwegian, Swedish and Danish each row hand;
The old national songs connect us,
The melody is a strong bond.
Of Agree Hedens Seed only good you reap
We look boldly to the North and the Baltic
In joy and sorrow! Oh, here's good to be!
Here live our dear!
From Fir and Birch and Beech, far over the sea,
hear the song of joy: I am a Scandinavian!

 

[Ingvina Freyr]

A beautiful poem indeed, Racsoviale!

Would you mind elaborate on the issues presented in that book of yours? I feel there is a world of difference between "the Danes had to quell a lot of Swedish rebellions because the Swedes wanted to be top dog" and "the king in Copenhagen had to quell a lot of rebellions by local nobles in the Svealand region who felt neglected and sought ways to increase their power".

The only nationalistic agitation I am aware of is that which was aimed at the Germans that all to often held important positions at the royal court and in the national administration. Before Gustav Vasa that is, who made it one of his life assignments to create a notion (IMO a myth) of a Danish/Swedish chasm.

 

[Leif Roar]

Scandinavian, Icelandic, Finnish and Sami... yes that's four, correct. Then there are a lot of dialects of these languages as well.At present in Scandinavia it's vice versa as the general populace wants it but the politicians don't (or can't bother).

Norwegian (with two written forms, nynorsk and bokmål), Swedish, Danish, Faeroese, Icelandic, 3 to 6 sami languages (depending on how you count: Northern Sami, Lule Sami, Pite Sami, Ume Sami and Southern Sami), Kalaallisut (Greenlandic), Finnish, Karelian, Kvensk, Meänkieli, Romani, Romani rakripa (Scandoromani), German and Yiddish. I might have left some out.

Then there are a not-insignificant presence of languages from modern immigration, but perhaps that goes a little beyond this discussion.

Of course, this hasn't even touched on various far-from-baseline dialects such as modern Gutnish or Elfdalian.

(ETA: I'd forgotten about the German enclave in Denmark.)

 

[Racsoviale]

Would you mind elaborate on the issues presented in that book of yours? I feel there is a world of difference between "the Danes had to quell a lot of Swedish rebellions because the Swedes wanted to be top dog" and "the king in Copenhagen had to quell a lot of rebellions by local nobles in the Svealand region who felt neglected and sought ways to increase their power".

Oh it is mostly how I read the chapter on the Kalmar Union, and I was mostly just pointing out the futility of the union. The reasons for the rebellions were by no means minor and the swedish nobles had every reason to be pissed of by their treatment by the danish court.
My point was more in the manner of the swedes being unfairly treated in the union compared to swedens population, army and so forth. And that instead of being an equal partner in the union they were playing second tier partner in a relationship where they by all means should have more influence.


And just to clarify: I am not trying to start any nationalistic battle over such an old topic. Skåne, Halland and Blekinge on the other hand

 

[Ingvina Freyr]

Norwegian (with two written forms, nynorsk and bokmål), Swedish, Danish, Faeroese, Icelandic, 3 to 6 sami languages (depending on how you count: Northern Sami, Lule Sami, Pite Sami, Ume Sami and Southern Sami), Kalaallisut (Greenlandic), Finnish, Karelian, Kvensk, Meänkieli, Romani, Romani rakripa (Scandoromani), German and Yiddish. I might have left some out.

Then there are a not-insignificant presence of languages from modern immigration, but perhaps that goes a little beyond this discussion.

Of course, this hasn't even touched on various far-from-baseline dialects such as modern Gutnish or Elfdalian.

(ETA: I'd forgotten about the German enclave in Denmark.)

It is apparent Sir, that you have adopted the liberal stance on language definition.

In all seriousness; LightSpectra commented on languages in Scandinavia as a obstacle for unification, but the number of official languages in Scandinavia is a product of having many governments. A unification would change very little. In time, hopefully, Danish, Swedish and Norwegian (x2) would officially become Scandinavian with one standardised grammar. It's not a daunting task, just look at the 22 countries/members of Asociación de Academias de la Lengua Española.

EDIT: @Racsoviale I agree with what you say, except perhaps for the futility of the union. The more I read on the matter the more convinced I am that had the union been better lead after the death of Queen Margrethe the union would have lasted at least up to the Napoleonic wars, if not longer.

It seems as the king(s) focused on the much richer southern provinces of Slesvig and Holstein than "central" Sweden (Svealand) which in the end turned out to be a mistake.

Edit II: Oh, and it's not possible to start a nationalistic battle within the same nation/people. That would be civil war .

 

[Verbose]

Oh it is mostly how I read the chapter on the Kalmar Union, and I was mostly just pointing out the futility of the union. The reasons for the rebellions were by no means minor and the swedish nobles had every reason to be pissed of by their treatment by the danish court.
My point was more in the manner of the swedes being unfairly treated in the union compared to swedens population, army and so forth. And that instead of being an equal partner in the union they were playing second tier partner in a relationship where they by all means should have more influence.

And just to clarify: I am not trying to start any nationalistic battle over such an old topic. Skåne, Halland and Blekinge on the other hand

Yeah, well, neither were the levied yeomen of the various Swedish provinces taking sides between the Union king an various rebellious leaders.

I mean, Swedish 19th nationalistic historiography did struggle mightily with the fact that every time the men of the province of Dalecarlia rose in rebellion against the Union king, the men of Uppland (seat of the capital, and the archbishopric of the church of Sweden) just as dependably stood by him (at least partly to get a crack at their hereditary enemies the Dalecarlians). So with every "Swedish" rebellious victory, there was a roughly equal number of defeated Swedes, retrospectively, lying broken and bleeding in the field.

That's otoh one of pecularities of Swedish medieval history: The free peasantry was armed, and victory and defeat for whatever nobles often enough might hinge on their support. They did kill at least one medieval king for not having fulfilled his contract that won him their votes at his election.

 

[Leif Roar]

It is apparent Sir, that you have adopted the liberal stance on language definition.

Not really; all the languages mentioned are either primary languages or have official status as a minority language, and all the modern languages (except Gutnish) stemming from Old Norse have distinct oral and literary traditions.

That said, I agree that the languages are not in themselves an obstacle for unification. (Although I find it unlikely that they would ever merge into a single "Common Swedaegian" language.) A unification is still off the table for other reasons, though.