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A very interesting LP and review in progress

Discussion in 'Multiplayer and LP's' started by Thunderbrd, Mar 3, 2019.

  1. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    They are private citizens taking the law into their hands. It happens whenever the government fails to do a good enough job of it and people get sick of being burglarized and murdered and such. Comics, btw, are all about vigilantes, well most of them.
     
  2. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    You're thinking of lynchmobs. Posses are legally 'deputized' temporary LEs.

    The vast majority of 'vigilantes' in comics are not criminals, and are in co-operation with, not self-righteous defiance of, law enforcement.

    Unless you're talking about eg X-Men, fighting for minority rights against state elements that have lost the plot. That's not vigilantism either, their targets are not civilian 'suspects', they are agents of the state security forces. Who by your definition can do no wrong. If you wanted to have a crime of 'insurgency' representing freedom-fighting against the tyrannical state, that would be a crime that might genuinely do more good than harm.
     
  3. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Both scenarios qualify. The people have had it and are doing something about it.



    Spiderman, Batman, Daredevil, even Captain America, Iron man, Superman at times. All have been pursued for being vigilantes. Then you have those that are obviously taking it too far, such as the Punisher, but are still doing more good than harm despite being criminals. Sometimes they make alliances with the authorities but they're still usually technically outside the law and it becomes a central part of what the stories often delve into. I mean that's what Civil War was all about - the choice to accept becoming a part of the system and being guided by it even if it compromises your values, or to deem yourself above and outside that system, even if for a higher good according to your value system. And yes indeed the X-Men are vigilantes. As would be Freedom Fighting. There's a reason Partisans and Guerrillas are in the same league of Ruffian units along with the earlier forms of Bandit Groups.

    It's entirely possible to be a criminal that is purely criminal BECAUSE you're stepping outside the boundaries of the law in taking the law into your own hands.

    I'm also not saying that the state can do no wrong, only that the state defines what is crime. Even if you are doing what is right, you can still be doing crime, and perhaps in part that's because of the way you are doing it. In a more preternatural state, before 'laws' are defined, community consensus and what the leader says defines the boundaries of law and does so rather arbitrarily, without clear definition, but is largely a matter of recognition of what causes the community harm. It certainly grows more complicated than that and some criminals should be seen as heroic for what they do depending on the era. I see the scoundrel, for example, as the representation of the rise of the thinking that led to democracy itself. They were anti-state but were not necessarily bad people at all, given how oppressive some monarchy style governments had become for so long. Crime isn't JUST the rot in society. It's much more than that, the refusal to accept society and live by its rules.
     
  4. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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  5. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Funny this is the first I'm hearing about the Human Mods... these are pretty cool :)


    Easily explained: YOU ARE THE STATE when you play this game, so if you are going to control criminal units, it must be that the state is funding and sponsoring those activities. There are barb criminals that spawn in your cities to represent the potent standout criminals of that sort that plague society purely for their own personal gain.
     
  6. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    This is how you get higher beings at first place ;)
    Anything between regular beings and whatever is on top of food chain itself ;)

    Spoiler :

    01.png 02.png 03.png 04.png 05.png 06.png 07.png 08.png 09.png 10.png
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
    Acularius and KaTiON_PT like this.
  7. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Now they are in Nanotech.
    They will be colonizing Cislunar space, Moon, Mars and Venus.

    Looks like he isn't playing on latest SVN.
    Also he has wonder or trait, that spawns state religion on settling city.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
  8. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I think it's his negative trait, Zealous that does that, IIRC. Eventually we'll be able to expand religious spreads in space cities by transportation.
     
  9. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    You can build route on Orbit terrain at Astrogation Constellation.
    This allows spread religions and corporations spread themselves.
    Religious/corporate buildings have Earth mapcategory only, so you can't build them outside of Earth.
    Similarly religion/corporation spreading units have earth only map category.
     
  10. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    An update down the road should make it possible for cities anywhere to be treated as additional kinds of map types, at least for the sake of units staffed there. This will eventually be critical.
     
  11. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Might need to review the coding on that again... this doesn't sound like it's set right at all.

    Is this as unfinished as he thinks or is it pretty much setup as intended at this point?

    You'd think he was reading my unit planning document. Muahahaha!


    @Toffer90 It looks like barbs graduating into nations aren't picking up from the tech level the barbs are at. If they did, it might help with providing cause for a surprise war in the late game now and then.
    Starting with the barb tech level and getting a little boost from there to start off might really give them a part to play.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
  12. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    This was why I removed meltdown chance from all buildings at first place.

    As for Space Mods (human mods NWs and life NWs), I guess concept was added, but their effects are very weak because its WIP.
     
  13. ssmage

    ssmage Warlord

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    As a longish power of feedback here and a SA member, And finding this thread existed today, I'll try to explain most things going on about the complaints:

    So, this goes into a thing called the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window. Once upon a time, SA existed, now SA has existed for a very long time, and In the old days it was very much the largest paid membership only forum in the world. Back then, many members of all spectrum posted there, until one day, over arguments in the anime forum, A poster named Moot got banned and then in response created *****. Every since then, SA has been the big English Left wing forum as many right wing left for /pol/. Now, most people in the world follow the American Politics version of what left wing means, Which very many other places in the world would call Center-right. As seen by all sorts of welfare and basic health programs not existing, rich get richer laws, that sort of thing. This brings in the Overton window, and now anything that is seen as challenging the status quo while being normally left wing is seen as communism. It works the other way as well and some of the more Left wing members will see history things and get grumpy about it, since most thing in this mod scream right wing bias to them, as history has been moving more rightward.

    This comes down to the names "gypsy" and "begger" being casual racism. Find better names for units, and the complaints will stop about it. If you want to make such things (Hitler falls into the same sort of category as this) keep it as a modular thing, not a general option.

    Any complaints about SA being really awful is normally someone from ***** attacking us, that's fine. We do it back.

    Pretty much putting Hitler anywhere not in a WW2 scenario screams right wing bias to them. You can say things about History written by the winners as a Fact as why Stalin and Mao existed in base Civ 4 for doing a bunch of horrible stuff as well. It lets them get away with it in peoples heads. now, Biotruths in Goonspeak is Stuff like the terms "alpha, beta, omega" when referring to people. As seen by people on ***** everywhere, calling people "beta" and themselves "alpha" gives the some sort of right wing pseudo science pleasure to them. It's very much seen in SA as "white male stronk" and everything in the mod that's supporting that like rhodesian culture and colonialism tech quotes adds to that.
    Many studies have shown that Humans and many animals never had such things as "alpha dynamics" A lot of mammals since before the mods timeline were all about courting and keeping in family groups while trying to make families with new groups to keep the gene pool wide, not 1 "alpha" dominating over 10 "betas". As said above, Renaming those sorts of things is the answer. Stuff like Rhodesia, while a true history thing, will fill goons with disgust.

    There were many human cultures that existed with many unique things about them that are forever lost to history because white washing became and still is a huge thing, and a huge part of the modern left wing is getting rid of every single piece of dog turd that supports that. I think in explained all the things about it above, so hopefully that'll explain a few things to you guys.

    :edit apparently a certain imageboard is censored on this forum. who knew?
     
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  14. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    They called Something Awful place of rightwing extremists, so someone didn't see revolution here.

    They got annoyed by quotes of Nazi people in techs too.
    I guess those quotes could be completely revamped and just directly reference techs in real world or science-fiction depending on era.
    Even without that those quotes needs revision.

    Also for example Minority Rights is needed to research Urban Culture tech.
    This wouldn't be big deal if it didn't unlock crime related stuff.
    Also some techs lead to other techs only to prevent them being dead ends.
    Game has balance problems making accidental biases here and there.

    You can go read entire LP thread.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2020
  15. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    If this is done through the actual event engine, I can see why. This should not be linked to that at all... I'll have to take a look at how it's activated.

    @ssmage I appreciate the feedback. There've been a lot of modders with a lot of worldviews working on the mod and a lot of variety of biases are here, most unintentional if at all because our primary agreed upon outlook is to not sugarcoat history or try to present it WITH a bias at all. I can admit that's probably impossible since we come into this with beliefs in general.

    I find that really stupid honestly because he existed so why should he be whitewashed out of history now? He was one of the most impacting rulers of all time and it's not to honor him that we include him so much as it is to admit that happened. Trying to pretend it didn't... there's a saying about the devil, the greatest lie he tried to tell was that he didn't exist. He gets more power by being denied entirely. We aren't supporting his ideals to include him. Besides, he was mostly a puppet for the Thule society and SS anyhow.

    It's my understanding these are just psychological models of behavioral dynamics. I don't really know nor do I care if it's all that accurate. One of the modders understood that approach and used it in his buildings (Mr Azure) but I never got a political leaning out of him. What is 'stronk' exactly? Rhodesian culture is something I personally know very little about but if it's real, again, why should it not be included? The quotes aren't always to glorify and sometimes it's downright demonizing the though processes of the era that led to the quote itself. A tech is not always considered a positive improvement, just a necessary step in Human evolution. Again, the goal is to never whitewash history because if you try to think out of existence something, you'll just invite its return in your eventual blindspot.
    Maybe we mean different things when we say 'whitewash'? I take it to mean, getting rid of what we don't agree with as if it didn't happen. You seem to see it more as racially biasing things.

    Civ has always been a little Euro-centric in its core approach to history. Technology as achievements are one of the foundational platforms of that thinking where a more Native American outlook would see that more as becoming less and less connected with nature and thus a negative thing. At some point, more will be done to try to rectify that issue.
     
  16. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    It never had anything to do with events (XML stuff).

    Stronk is meme spelling of Strong
    Also I guess those Nazis used same source as Mr Azure because anything can be used by evil.
    You would lose actual meme battle with cultural far left/right wingers :p
    Welcome to dankest timeline ;)
    Maybe we should add reference to "meme warfare" between cultural left and cultural right?

    Whitewashing melanin VS whitewashing manners :p

    Still I don't believe its real. Their customs could be absolutely unchanged for millennia.
    Also there are more pristine tribes, that survived for longer than Native Americans.
    On physical and chemical level being close or far from nature doesn't mean anything - its just molecules dancing around each other.
    So this stuff is purely emergent - biological/psychological/societal.
    If by closeness of nature you mean pace of tech progress, then either we:
    Are overglorified monkeys
    Are simple eternal Ancient/Classical/Medieval empire until we run out of metals.
    Explode uncontrollably after reaching Renaissance - exhaust resources and pollute environment and maybe do nuclear winter.
    Survive technological boom and become very eternal eco-technological civilization with Nanotech/Transhuman tech level, and presence across solar system.
    Create and spread life among stars or even galaxies and convert some stuff to computronium to fuel tech progress (this civ would be really eternal).
    Storm trough all limits and win C2C scientific victory while showing life and nature in every corner of omniverse.
    What if we are nature equivalent of rogue AI? Seems like worst tech for nature are in middle of tech tree (Atomic era).

    Someone has to build sentient energy fields (actual tech in last era :D) to interfere with sapient beings.
    Did universe cause itself, is it simulation? There is a lot of things like that in Transcendental era.
    Read every tech and building pedia entry here :D
    You can sort techs by chronology or just scroll tech tree and snoop around here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2020
  17. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    So lets be clear then... YOU are a bit Eurocentric in your thinking ;) That's fine. Is what it is. Most are.
     
  18. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Can't spread nature across universe without almost roasting home planet ;)
    Nature on bigger planets should have higher survival chances of that Renaissance-Nanotech period - much more resources and mass VS more land mass.
    You might need fission/fusion power to start space program though (direct power or laser beams) ;)

    Also I believe if spirituality having real effects (without person doing anything) is real, then someone has to win C2C scientific victory already.
    Sufficiently advanced tech is indistinguishable from magic/spirituality/gods.

    Video games of Nanotech and later eras just may be like that - realistic pieces of fictional universe with generated history.
    You can already roleplay like that ignoring visible imperfections or modding hell out of game.

    EDIT:
    By the way it seems like Middle East, Far East and Europe were good places for technological civilization.
    Other places were too harsh to produce thriving technological civilization out of cavemen.
    For example too many parasitic diseases in jungles, that hurt humans and animal husbandry.
    Also there wasn't trade chains like Silk Road.
    America was discovered because Europeans wanted shorter route to spices and other China/India goods.
    They were exploring seas and oceans in search of advanced civs among other stuff too.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2020
  19. ssmage

    ssmage Warlord

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    If you have any counter questions and explanations you wanna pass out so I can post it on the LP thread, you're welcome to do so and get replies from the others in the echo chamber.
    Others would have better understandings and other takes on what the problems are, and maybe better english explanations.
     
  20. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I've made a number of posts you could share. I'm not against the general worldview over there, just perhaps how to go about trying to achieve the improvements in society sought. And I wouldn't mind having my words expressed to explain some things but I realize an explanation may not be what is needed because the goal is to find anything to bash on anyhow or it wouldn't even be expressed on that site. I also don't think the mod is above criticism and it's certainly not complete yet so we're considering the feedback given there and find it interesting whether we agree or not exactly.

    I definitely appreciate you explaining the term 'biotruths' as I had never heard the term before. Nor had I ever heard any criticism of such a nature anywhere.

    This playthrough is fascinating to me because I've never seen these later eras, particularly with a visual guide. They've been a bit of a pet project for a few modders here and I'm doing some unit planning out through those eras and its giving me some information I've gotta consider.
     

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