A very interesting LP and review in progress

[Yudishtira]

So apparently Alpha Male/Female is controversial like nuclear energy or climate change for them.
What could be other good names for those buildings?
Prime or Dominant Male/Female?

Why are Alpha Male/Female controversial? Are they supposed to denote racial supremacy?

 

[raxo2222]

Why are Alpha Male/Female controversial? Are they supposed to denote racial supremacy?

Something like that - @ssmage explained it like this:

Now, Biotruths in Goonspeak is Stuff like the terms "alpha, beta, omega" when referring to people. As seen by people on ***** everywhere, calling people "beta" and themselves "alpha" gives the some sort of right wing pseudo science pleasure to them. It's very much seen in SA as "white male stronk" and everything in the mod that's supporting that like rhodesian culture and colonialism tech quotes adds to that.
Many studies have shown that Humans and many animals never had such things as "alpha dynamics" A lot of mammals since before the mods timeline were all about courting and keeping in family groups while trying to make families with new groups to keep the gene pool wide, not 1 "alpha" dominating over 10 "betas". As said above, Renaming those sorts of things is the answer. Stuff like Rhodesia, while a true history thing, will fill goons with disgust.

So not only those terms are used by racial supremacists, it is biologically inaccurate too.

So by changing it to Ancestral Male/Female I meant leader and his/her partner doing menial jobs directly too.
Those buildings obsolete fairly quickly - for example they work only on default civic.
Next Power civics are Matriarchy, Patriarchy (and Junta in same column).
Techs named Matriarchy/Patriarchy obsolete Ancestral Male/Female.

 

[Toffer90]

Prime or Dominant Male/Female?

Prime and alpha are synonyms, if one is ok the other is ok.
Dominant is wrong, the building doesn't represent forceful control.

 

[raxo2222]

Prime and alpha are synonyms, if one is ok the other is ok.
Dominant is wrong, the building doesn't represent forceful control.

So it will be Prime Male/Female.
Also I renamed Child Crew to Child Labor Crew as TB wanted.

We (as in the forum posters, not the Mongolians) better stop ridiculing the mod, or else when it finally becomes complete it’ll make us all pay for not taking it seriously and not trying to promote it to everyone we know in advance so it could become complete faster.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@raxo2222 ,
Please stop pandering to these people. Please. They can criticize all they want to but that does not mean we have to acquiesce to their every whim or any ideal they want to push. And from what you are posting that is exactly what they are doing. And all it is accomplishing is more divisive rhetoric. They Do Not have to play the Mod. We as a team do not have to pander to them or placate them. They are a distraction to gain attention to themselves. And not to actually play the Mod.

Also please stop telling them that the Civics will flow to their opinions. It may very well Not do so. It is presumptive to the extreme to think a current socialist ideology will persist or even survive into the future. And name calling because it does not make it into the Mod's civic system is childish behavior. Future Eras are All "what if's" territory. Sci-Fi extrapolations and guesses to extremes in any direction. Nothing in these Eras are in written in stone nor is in fact fact. It's all imagination. And everyone's imagination does not match everyone else's.

This whole thing is childish behavior.

 

[Yudishtira]

Something like that - @ssmage explained it like this:

So not only those terms are used by racial supremacists, it is biologically inaccurate too.

So by changing it to Ancestral Male/Female I meant leader and his/her partner doing menial jobs directly too.
Those buildings obsolete fairly quickly - for example they work only on default civic.
Next Power civics are Matriarchy, Patriarchy (and Junta in same column).
Techs named Matriarchy/Patriarchy obsolete Ancestral Male/Female.

So his critique is complete nonsense. These nascent tribes will not be racially diverse in most cases, so it is ludicrous to imagine that it's a race thing. These leadership roles existed, and we have now hunted for better names and Alpha Male and Female are still the best. The Alpha Female is not even an enforcement role since it's about tending the sick.

It's not biologically inaccurate (even assuming his "loads of studies" are correct, which I doubt) because it doesn't (necessarily) represent the victor in testosterone contests among all the men. The Alpha Male gets that role by clan consensus, with all his virtues and vices taken into account.

Next they'll be objecting to "king", and "president", and "aristocracy", because they represent racial and gender supremacy.

And just because some people use the terms incorrectly, that doesn't mean we can't use them. There's hardly a word that no-one uses incorrectly, so by that rule we'd have to give up language altogether.

 

[raxo2222]

@raxo2222 ,
Please stop pandering to these people. Please. They can criticize all they want to but that does not mean we have to acquiesce to their every whim or any ideal they want to push. And from what you are posting that is exactly what they are doing. And all it is accomplishing is more divisive rhetoric. They Do Not have to play the Mod. We as a team do not have to pander to them or placate them. They are a distraction to gain attention to themselves. And not to actually play the Mod.

Also please stop telling them that the Civics will flow to their opinions.
This whole thing is childish behavior.

Its just three buildings.

Also I suggested much earlier (I created latest civics discussion thread), that ideologies would have different strengths and weakness.
I suggested civic obsoletion before them too (autobuild that requires civic X, that is unlocked at certain tech, and makes civic much worse), but AI wouldn't handle it yet, so its for later.
Socialism and capitalism would be more mid - 2/3rd game ideologies.

So his critique is complete nonsense.

You mean SA critique of alpha male/female itself is nonsense.
They will get angry, if you say "beta gypsy"
Also they instantly wanted to kill hitler as soon as it was found in that playtrough.
Its lots of things, that they find offensive - it is accidental, as they are way more sensitive than us.
I think someone needs to do evil dictator playtrough in front of them lol (Crusader Kings to Stellaris mega campaign ).
And yeah, they are bit childish - or are believing conspiracy theories too.

 

[Yudishtira]

You mean SA critique of alpha male/female itself is nonsense.

You probably read my post, so I think it is obvious that yes that is what I mean, and why.

They will get angry, if you say "beta gypsy"
Also they instantly wanted to kill hitler as soon as it was found in that playtrough.
Its lots of things, that they find offensive - it is accidental, as they are way more sensitive than us.
I think someone needs to do evil dictator playtrough in front of them lol (Crusader Kings to Stellaris mega campaign ).
And yeah, they are bit childish.

They are behaving in the way ssmage complains about, asserting their superiority on totally invalid grounds. Is that irony, or just hypocrisy?

You seem to know their criticism is without merit, so why are you still acting on it? Who cares what makes them angry?

And you say it's just three buildings, but who knows how much encouragement they will get from knowing you will act on their demands, however stupid?
The phrase "blood in the water" springs to mind.

 

[Thunderbrd]

It is presumptive to the extreme to think a current socialist ideology will persist or even survive into the future.

It would also be presumptive to think it wouldn't. I suggest, for the sake of peace and a wider popularity potential, we at least consider both right/left ideologies to be equally valid in this game. I'm sure you understand we've done the same with the religious side of the game and should with the political side.



The alpha discussion is interesting. I think Yudishtira voiced my feelings on that the most but I'm happy to make the concession to take out the omega in the child crew if that might help to diminish the appearance of a cultish development bias since I've always understood it there but found it unnecessary. I don't mind Prime for Alpha either but meh... don't see it as a big concern. Racists have been hijacking real truths and twisting them for ages - doesn't mean they are totally untrue, just means they've been a bit twisted. Certainly there are dominant and recessive personalities and people. Ignoring that seems... ignorant. This seems like such a minor issue to me.

As for most everything, I'm going to side with the team in almost all cases over any outside commentary but I do still think it's good we discuss it out and consider it where we get criticisms.

 

[raxo2222]

You probably read my post, so I think it is obvious that yes that is what I mean, and why.

They are behaving in the way ssmage complains about, asserting their superiority on totally invalid grounds. Is that irony, or just hypocrisy?

You seem to know their criticism is without merit, so why are you still acting on it? Who cares what makes them angry?

And you say it's just three buildings, but who knows how much encouragement they will get from knowing you will act on their demands, however stupid?
The phrase "blood in the water" springs to mind.

Yeah, they disliked term "alpha" being applied to humans, timeframe of it seemed to not matter.
Also one of them called us "alt-right" or something like that before.

I think this should be enough to calm them down.

It would also be presumptive to think it wouldn't. I suggest, for the sake of peace and a wider popularity potential, we at least consider both right/left ideologies to be equally valid in this game. I'm sure you understand we've done the same with the religious side of the game and should with the political side.

Yeah, moderate ideology should give flexibility (master of none, but won't mess up anything), or go far left/right to maximize something at cost of chernobyl-ing things

Left-right should exist at least in two independent axes: Economic freedom and social freedom.

 

[raxo2222]

Haha the civfanatics thread monitoring this one is kinda terrible and it seems that their attitude is "maybe these changes away from alpha/omega will placate them but hopefully they won't smell blood in the water and keep pushing"

e: also apparently anything but centrism is destructive

Well this is what you get for politicizing things, that we just assumed: This stuff is dark, they will be aware of it without complaints.

As example of Centrist ideology for latter half of Atomic era and earlier half of Information era I was thinking about mainstream politics and policies of Japan, Australia, Canada, and countries in Western and Northern Europe.
Bit wider margin would include USA, entire Europe, and some other countries.
Being offcenter would be fine as long as you control properties and other stuff.
Some ideologies could be incompatible with traits (like negative trait exacerbating negative side of civic) - another thing that I suggested long ago.

Added some funny descriptions some time ago.

Spoiler :

And they finished game.
Blitz/Normal/Long are recommended speeds.
2 minute long turns at certian point is one of reasons of why fastest gamespeeds are recommended.
Jossar needs to read this guide to fix graphical glitches.
He needs to enable beta version of civ in steam.

 

[Thunderbrd]

He did well to finish his journey through the tech tree. It's truly an impressive feat, pretty much at any gamespeed.