A Vision for Space Colonization

[Noriad2]

I'm pretty sure the simple truth is that, militarily, space dominance will be as or more valuable than Air dominance has ever been and for similar reasons. Imagine what a focused sun-reflected beam focused from a huge collection center and intensified with something as simple as a lense could do to targets on Earth. Same could be said for satellites but we're fairly capable of knocking satellites out of orbit now.

A nation that has a colony on another planetary body that has achieved self sufficiency and a reasonable expectation of being able to persist such self sufficiency for all foreseeable future would have much less cause to hold back on a doomsday war action on Earth. It is and will always be a race for dominance for a civ to be able to establish a legitimate long term and sustainable colonization on another planet. Again... it comes down to survival.

Global warming is one aspect of the equation. Pollution another. We're probably not far from making Earth itself as habitable as Mars and its going to be the same technologies that give us any capacity to survive it here that will enable us to survive on nearly any other planetary body anywhere.

Furthermore, consider how illusionary money actually is. Other systems could emerge to make the concept of commerce moot and the concept of a unified purpose of a people much more important. As a species, our consideration of whether to attempt colonization elsewhere now is something we're reluctant to engage in because we so easily forget that one reaps what they sow. If we do not strive to achieve this colonization as soon and as quickly as possible, we will miss out on the tremendous opportunity we cannot imagine with our limited worldview today. Endless room to expand exists and yet we bicker over whether we should take the step. Much like Prehistoric Man must have done when someone suggested to build boats that were seaworthy enough to cross larger distances of ocean to perhaps find more room to grow undisturbed by hostile neighbors.

A space military arms race that gives the winner an enormous advantage in Earth wars would be a compelling reason to engage in it. As far as I know, in current Real Life, the powers that engage in space activity have pledged not to militarize space (except spy satellites) but that may change in the future.

For travel beyond earth's orbit we need better power and propulsion sources anyway. We are barely capable of reaching the moon or Mars, and only at enormous cost. With current technology, it is more viable to terraform Earth's deserts (the Sahara was wet and green between 7000 and 4000 B.C.)

Large boats didn't just evolve out of nothing. It started with fishing boats, travel and long distance transport of goods and raw materials. So there was an economy there. After that it was just a matter of scaling up.

Space colonization needs to be profitable on its own, and I don't see that happening anytime soon other than the usefulness of geosynchronous satellites. If there is no economic or military reason to go there, there is nothing to scale up.

Space colonization may be all nice and exiting, but somebody has to pay the bills, and I think that a mad dictator (or Pharaoh) with absolute power is more likely to do it than the current democracies. However a rich technologically advanced nation requires a thriving middle class and they don't accept mad dictators or massive spending on something that doesn't give benefits in the near future, unless there is a military threat. And the old trick of promising rewards in the afterlife doesn't work anymore anyway in a high science society.

 

[Thunderbrd]

A space military arms race that gives the winner an enormous advantage in Earth wars would be a compelling reason to engage in it. As far as I know, in current Real Life, the powers that engage in space activity have pledged not to militarize space (except spy satellites) but that may change in the future.

For travel beyond earth's orbit we need better power and propulsion sources anyway. We are barely capable of reaching the moon or Mars, and only at enormous cost. With current technology, it is more viable to terraform Earth's deserts (the Sahara was wet and green between 7000 and 4000 B.C.)

Large boats didn't just evolve out of nothing. It started with fishing boats, travel and long distance transport of goods and raw materials. So there was an economy there. After that it was just a matter of scaling up.

Space colonization needs to be profitable on its own, and I don't see that happening anytime soon other than the usefulness of geosynchronous satellites. If there is no economic or military reason to go there, there is nothing to scale up.

Space colonization may be all nice and exiting, but somebody has to pay the bills, and I think that a mad dictator (or Pharaoh) with absolute power is more likely to do it than the current democracies. However a rich technologically advanced nation requires a thriving middle class and they don't accept mad dictators or massive spending on something that doesn't give benefits in the near future, unless there is a military threat. And the old trick of promising rewards in the afterlife doesn't work anymore anyway in a high science society.

Which all goes to show that the primary concerns that you're bringing up are modern ones from a modern perspective. You point out that with advancements in technology, these concerns begin to diminish. Better propulsion systems and modularized habitation methods can bring about a future where space travel is much easier to engage in. One could also argue that initial space exploration and research is largely about practicing and improving those things. Trying the ideas and concepts scientists have put forward is a motive in itself and without some efforts to do so the advancements may take longer to achieve.

But the question of whether it would be rewarding to earn space colonization viability is, I believe, something that is intrinsically obvious, regardless of what economic motivations may or may not exist. Thus for now it is done with what is perceived as disposable budget, but is done with the idea that investment into scientific advancement would bring about its own obvious reward.

The truth of the modern day is that governments are probably hovering at about 20% research and don't have much faith to invest further than that because we're extraordinarily shortsighted as a species at the moment, locked into the struggles of individual wealth accomplishment. At some point we may outgrow this limited worldview but it may take having an idea of what the reward would be to do so. A player in Civ knows what tech is coming up next, what the research paths to an achievement are... but in RL, there is only doubt that any technology would be viable because to try to advance carries the risk of failure that Civ does not model.

Our tech tree does show how space travel becomes an easier affair and as it does it progresses from 'forays to explore and learn' into actual colonization.

I suppose I'm trying to say that we'll naturally 'get there' and the motive of financial gain may have nothing to do with our actually doing so.

However, resource access IS a compelling reason to go if we can find materials that are very valuable here to be very easily obtained out there to the point that it makes it more viable. 'Space Tourism' is helping to drive private developments in space efforts. And the search for truths that put longstanding debates about the origins of life and our species itself is generating some further motive and at times investment.

 

[Noriad2]

However, resource access IS a compelling reason to go if we can find materials that are very valuable here to be very easily obtained out there to the point that it makes it more viable.

That still leaves how "easier access to resources" translates into C2C.
There is no such thing as "easier access" in civ 4. Either you have access to the
resource or you don't.

 

[Toffer90]

That still leaves how "easier access to resources" translates into C2C.
There is no such thing as "easier access" in civ 4. Either you have access to the
resource or you don't.

Resource consumption. A feature soon to come.

 

[Faustmouse]

I have to support TB here in that the single best reason for off-planet colonies is (human) survival. You don't need alien civs that make asteroids collide with earth - this stuff happens naturally. Than we have the ever increasing chance of a super virus / bug that threatens mankind (either naturally or man-made), nuclear war, global warming, ice age or stuff we can't even imagine!
Resource availability more about having this stuff already in orbit. Why spend lots of money and energy to put tons of aluminium into orbit when you can extract them easily from asteroids and then transport it into earths orbit? This could be modelled by making orbital structures very expensive (hammer-wise) and then add -90% cost when you have a certain resource. Or make orbital megastructures only available if you have an asteroid mine.

And I too think that all this is a too much money focussed thinking. Recently I found something that sounds like a pretty cool alternative to the very short-sighted and doomed economic system we have now:

http://www.paradiseoroblivion.com/watch.html

(I think from game purposes this is not useful at all, but I think you might find it interesting - especially you TB!)

 

[Noriad2]

Resource consumption. A feature soon to come.

I don't want to sound all negative, but Resource Consumption, depending on how it is implemented, could go very wrong on either adding too much micromanagement or too hard to balance (making availability of resources either game-breaking or trivial).

 

[pepper2000]

Incidentally, The Venus Project is on my list of planned buildings (at Utopia Destiny). New late game civics are also under development, but that is still far off. I am not endorsing or condemning TVP's program and ideas, but it also fits into the notion that we should explore speculative societies along with speculative science and technology.

 

[Faustmouse]

In fact, I would just as soon get rid of the whole projects mechanism. I've considered adding Apollo 11 (disconnected from the Apollo project), Luna Program, Jade Rabbit, and/or Earthrise..

Why Apollo 11 apart from the Apollo Program? I think Mercury and Gemini are at least as important; they were the first to achieve manned Orbit (Mercury), or rendevous and long term stays (Gemini). They were absolutely necessary for Apollo even to happen. And a not commonly known fun fact: Apollo was initially never aimed to bring humans to the moon. That was the Gemini program. But since they were running out of time they decided to change Apollo and use this to get to the moon instead.

You could also add the Explorer program as the US's first artifical satellite. The program then continued mainly for space related research.

 

[pepper2000]

I probably wouldn't do Apollo 11; I was just thinking out loud. Mercury and Gemini are already in V1 of the space colonization modmod, as are Sputnik, the Baikonur Cosmodrome, and several interplanetary missions and space stations. Explorer is a good idea and would serve as a counterpoint to Sputnik. But I do want more content at Lunar Exploration. Projects Mercury and Gemini are at Astro Environmental Systems now (an empty tech), and perhaps Gemini could be moved. I'm sure there will be a lot of jiggling of things around before we get it right.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't want to sound all negative, but Resource Consumption, depending on how it is implemented, could go very wrong on either adding too much micromanagement or too hard to balance (making availability of resources either game-breaking or trivial).

It could. It could also make for a layer of trading mechanism(s) that might make the game a lot more interesting in general. Modeling supply and demand doesn't necessarily mean making the game a micromanagement nightmare but may well introduce an enjoyable 'game within the game' that could be fun.

I do think if its done optimally, we should consider how to do it so that it's optional. Tricky tricky tricky. Lots to consider on how to proceed. Big project in itself and perhaps worthy of its own entire release cycle of team effort.

 

[Noriad2]

After reading the posts above, I do agree that long-term human survival is a powerful motive for space colonization. The danger however is that if you simply emulate space colonization, this game runs the risk of changing from a strategy wargame to a mere simulation game. Nothing wrong with that but that is not Civ. Already in the original Civ 1 the concept of winning by sending a space ship to Alpha Centauri was introduced. You get far in the tech tree, invest a bunch of hammers then you are the winner. Which is a nice alternative way to win as conquering the world can get tedious in the last stages of the game. But the game ends there.

After Civ 2, the awesome game Sid Meiers Alpha Centauri (SMAC) came out which was the follow up game about what happens once your space ship arrives at Alpha Centauri. (nb the original SMAC rocks, the sequel SMAX was less interesting imho)

However I'd like to point out a crucial change in the story: In civ, the spaceship is owned and launched by one civ. In SMAC, the spaceship is a collective effort by all the civs of Earth, and among the way fighting broke out on board between the representatives of the various civs, that set the stage for the factional warfare in SMAC.

If SMAC only had one faction, it would have been at best a mildly interesting colonization simulation game.

I forsee the following ways a space mod can go wrong:

1) it becomes a mere simulation instead of a wargame.
2) low relevance to the Earth game. In SMAC, you can launch a mining satellite that simply adds a bit of production to all your cities. A space colonization simulation that effectively does the same but with a lot of complexity is a waste of micromanagement. Better stick to the SMAC system of just "build, launch and forget" mining satellites in that case.
3) continuation of earth conflicts in space without balance. SMAC was balanced in that all faction started the game at roughly the same strengths and tech level. In C2C, the civs are more likely to have different strengths and tech levels by the time space colonization becomes an option. This gives the earth civ that already is the dominant civ on earth a huge head start over the rest.

I still think that if you want to make space colonization an interesting part of C2C, it should trigger an alien invasion along the way, with considerable off-world infrastructure being necessary to repel it. I did read the first chapter of a book called "Battlefield Earth" (movie sucks) that tells about an earth satellite with gold plaque engraved with pictures that say "Hi mister space alien welcome to meet you, this is what we look like and this is how you find our home planet" (*)

(*) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_plaque

In the book, this satellite was indeed picked up by a hostile alien race that concluded that there were valuable raw materials (notably the gold from the plaque) to be found on Earth and subsequently killed off most of the human race by adding poison gas to the earth atmosphere and pillaged Earth infrastructure for valuable raw materials (its easy to gather gold in Fort Knox if all the guards are dead).

 

[pepper2000]

I agree that that will be a challenge. If all civs are based on Earth, then it is difficult to imagine a viable scenario for an interstellar war. And though I put out a few concepts for hostile alien races, they are not fleshed out and will clearly require a lot of work.

The simulation factor is what I am most interested in. I know it's not for everyone. In principle, a player could just not use a galactic map and ignore all the space colonies, or go only as far as asteroid mining and space-based solar power for their immediate boosts to Earth industry. I don't see how the presence of space buildings would be harmful in that case.

The balance issue is also a very good point. From what I read at the forums, and based on my own experience, by the Modern Era one civ usually has a decisive lead over the others, if they still even exist. That is despite tricks such as Tech Diffusion to keep the players in line. If one player can grab all the cislunar colony sites (which would not be remotely realistic in real life), that player would have an insurmountable lead. We may need to have a Modern start for that to work, but any era start other than Prehistoric has been an unsolved challenge.

Regarding the Pioneer Plaque, Neil de Grasse Tyson pointed out, "we tell children not to give our their addresses to strangers".

 

[Faustmouse]

The problem with aliens invading us is mainly, that we wouldn't stand a chance.

The chances of having an alien civ roughly the same tech level as us is sooooo small. Think about it. The first couple of billion years the universe didn't contain enough heavier eements (Lithium and above) for life to develope. But image an earth like planet formed 1 billion years before us. This civ, if everything goes as it went for us, would be 1 billion years ahead of us. Let's say life took longer to develope and it is only 1000 years ahead of us. Do you think, if a civ with the tech level we have today would've invaded a medival country in the year 1016, that these people would have a chance?What would swords, bows etc do against tanks?

Even 200 years are hard to imagen. No planes, no tanks, no assault riffles...

I don't even think that a civ only 50 years behind us would stand a chance very long. And technology is accelerating; we couldn't imagen what weapons will be around 50 years from now. Accoustic weapons that stun an entire army? Sure. Incredibly strong alloys that withstand heavy fire with ease? Why not. Highly accurate military robots? Ultra hard to detect stealth ships / tanks / people?

And what are 50 years, or let's be generous and say 100 years compared to 1 billion?
1 / 10 millions. And this alien civs needs to have at least the tech to travel to us. Which we probably won't figure out how to do for another 100+ years.

 

[Noriad2]

Resource availability more about having this stuff already in orbit. Why spend lots of money and energy to put tons of aluminium into orbit when you can extract them easily from asteroids and then transport it into earths orbit? This could be modelled by making orbital structures very expensive (hammer-wise) and then add -90% cost when you have a certain resource. Or make orbital megastructures only available if you have an asteroid mine.

I think you underestimate the difficulty of turning ore rocks into quality space ship components.
I live near a large steel/aluminium smelter. The buildings and equipment stretch over many square kilometers. I did a tour there once.
Gravity is essential for many of the production methods. Gravity lets the liquid metal flow between various parts of the purification equipment and allows for easy separation of materials with different density. Purifying metal from rock without gravity and without earth atmosphere requires radically different purification methods.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining discusses the feasibility of asteroid mining, but barely touches the subject of turning ore into useable components.

 

[Noriad2]

The problem with aliens invading us is mainly, that we wouldn't stand a chance.

The chances of having an alien civ roughly the same tech level as us is sooooo small. Think about it. The first couple of billion years the universe didn't contain enough heavier eements (Lithium and above) for life to develope. But image an earth like planet formed 1 billion years before us. This civ, if everything goes as it went for us, would be 1 billion years ahead of us. Let's say life took longer to develope and it is only 1000 years ahead of us. Do you think, if a civ with the tech level we have today would've invaded a medival country in the year 1016, that these people would have a chance?What would swords, bows etc do against tanks?

Even 200 years are hard to imagen. No planes, no tanks, no assault riffles...

I don't even think that a civ only 50 years behind us would stand a chance very long. And technology is accelerating; we couldn't imagen what weapons will be around 50 years from now. Accoustic weapons that stun an entire army? Sure. Incredibly strong alloys that withstand heavy fire with ease? Why not. Highly accurate military robots? Ultra hard to detect stealth ships / tanks / people?

And what are 50 years, or let's be generous and say 100 years compared to 1 billion?
1 / 10 millions. And this alien civs needs to have at least the tech to travel to us. Which we probably won't figure out how to do for another 100+ years.

We would have the home advantage. An invading enemy has to travel a large distance, something that is expensive economically. So it cannot bring all its forces to the combat field.

 

[Faustmouse]

We would have the home advantage. An invading enemy has to travel a large distance, something that is expensive economically. So it cannot bring all its forces to the combat field.

Home advantage worked well for aztecs as well

 

[Noriad2]

How about a semi-intelligent space-based life form that uses biological power instead of technology? Like the Zerg from StarCraft? That travels through space like herds of dangerous animals on earth?

 

[Noriad2]

Home advantage worked well for aztecs as well

Hernan Cortes and his conquistadores did not defeat the Aztecs alone, they had thousands of local allies that hated the Aztecs with passion because the Aztecs harvested them for human sacrifices. Without those allies, Cortes may have been defeated.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I still think that if you want to make space colonization an interesting part of C2C, it should trigger an alien invasion along the way, with considerable off-world infrastructure being necessary to repel it. I did read the first chapter of a book called "Battlefield Earth" (movie sucks) that tells about an earth satellite with gold plaque engraved with pictures that say "Hi mister space alien welcome to meet you, this is what we look like and this is how you find our home planet" (*)

I have two ideas in mind for this 'era' actually, and by setting up further NPC slots now I'm preparing both for eventual implementation.

One is Aliens, yes. And I suspect more than one type may be in order, despite Hydro's original manifesto that we should only have one.

The other is the rise of the machines. With true AI eventually being introduced along our existing tech tree, the chance that factions of AI revolt against humanity entirely is not so far fetched. It would ultimately be a global revolution event leaving all civilizations facing a horrifying enemy that for a time is much more powerful than humanity since they have left us bereft of interconnected computerized technology to fight them with. Some of my recent criminal review has planned for this as well. I envision this to be one of the big challenges of the late transhuman and possibly taking place before alien threats manifest due to extensive colonization of the human race.

The problem with aliens invading us is mainly, that we wouldn't stand a chance.

The chances of having an alien civ roughly the same tech level as us is sooooo small. Think about it. The first couple of billion years the universe didn't contain enough heavier eements (Lithium and above) for life to develope. But image an earth like planet formed 1 billion years before us. This civ, if everything goes as it went for us, would be 1 billion years ahead of us. Let's say life took longer to develope and it is only 1000 years ahead of us. Do you think, if a civ with the tech level we have today would've invaded a medival country in the year 1016, that these people would have a chance?What would swords, bows etc do against tanks?

Even 200 years are hard to imagen. No planes, no tanks, no assault riffles...

I don't even think that a civ only 50 years behind us would stand a chance very long. And technology is accelerating; we couldn't imagen what weapons will be around 50 years from now. Accoustic weapons that stun an entire army? Sure. Incredibly strong alloys that withstand heavy fire with ease? Why not. Highly accurate military robots? Ultra hard to detect stealth ships / tanks / people?

And what are 50 years, or let's be generous and say 100 years compared to 1 billion?
1 / 10 millions. And this alien civs needs to have at least the tech to travel to us. Which we probably won't figure out how to do for another 100+ years.

I agree. Which is why one must ask themselves the following set of questions, which I think leads to one answer but I'll let you come to your own conclusions:
1) Given that the mathematical probabilities strongly suggest that extra-terrestrial intelligent life not only would exist in the Galaxy, but would also exist in many forms, many of which would, as a species, predate humanity's emergence by potentially the length of time that the Earth has existed at all, and therefore be VERY powerful by our reckoning, the question here is: why have we not been invaded yet?

2) In such a Galaxy where such intelligent species do exist, we must assume that there are inter-species conflicts right?

3) Is it therefore MORE or LESS likely that Humanity has been interacting with one or more species throughout its entire existence?

4) If it is MORE likely that we have, why would we, as a people not know this, even if there 'may' be a tremendous volume of relics, stories, legends, and cultural recollections left behind to indicate this has been taking place? Why would it not be absolutely apparent to the mass public? Would it not require a tremendous amount of manipulation to HIDE or RE-EXPLAIN these interactions so as to convince the people that THEY have NOT been among us all along?

5) What could be the manifestations of such an effort to manipulate the people to gradually adjust their collective worldview such that we would be led into a state of disbelief that 'they' have been interacting with us?

6) WHAT would be the motive for those species to make us believe they do not exist?

7) Is it possible, then, that we (Earth as a whole) are and have always been a vassal state of an alien species all along?

8) Is this the answer to why we have not been invaded by an alien species? Because we're already owned by one that has the strength to keep such an invasion at bay?

9) Is this why our governments have been resolute in refusing to share information they have regarding their interactions with UFOs and those that have arrived within them?

10) Could all of our apparent national conflicts on Earth be little more than cause to train the people of Earth to eventually stand on our own and defend our territory against the enemies of those who watch over us now? Could that be our ultimate 'purpose'?

11) IF we were NOT already at least in some kind of diplomatic status with off-world species, why would we not be militarizing ourselves and pouring our resources into technological advancement to the max out of concern for an impending alien invasion that could happen at any time? Is it because we KNOW we have a security force protecting us already?

12) I say all of this in full light of all the evidence the UFO community has collected that strongly points to moments in time where our government and others have met with and negotiated with off world species representatives. The evidence for these events is fairly overwhelming... enough to hold up in a court case at least. But yet still propaganda and firmly set paradigms along with abject terror that the universe may be bewilderingly complex beyond the imagination granted us by our established worldviews is such that many people deny this evidence even exists, even when confronted with it. Is this coincidence that (as a collective) we've been so brainwashed as to ignore such evidence?


To me... all valid conclusions to these questions points only to one truth about our existence. And although that conclusion is frightening, thinking even deeper still, it can also be a little comforting. Honestly, with all we can see out there and all we KNOW from a purely scientific viewpoint in combination with assumables made by mathematical principle, we should, as nations, be terrified of the INNEVITABILITY of interplanetary war knocking on our door any day now. Yet... our nations do not appear to be so concerned. We should be asking ourselves why this is that we are not in full on preparation mode for this to take place as if we are in full realization that we are currently living on borrowed time as it is.

How about a semi-intelligent space-based life form that uses biological power instead of technology? Like the Zerg from StarCraft? That travels through space like herds of dangerous animals on earth?

This could be one very cool faction to represent. I like it. Strikes me as best represented by a reptilian/draconic species. And perhaps an insectoid one as well. Both would be a good fit for probability based on my UFOlogy studies.

Hernan Cortes and his conquistadores did not defeat the Aztecs alone, they had thousands of local allies that hated the Aztecs with passion because the Aztecs harvested them for human sacrifices. Without those allies, Cortes may have been defeated.

While I think ultimately the point was that when the technologically advanced Western world sailed to the Americas and began spreading here, no tribe, not the Aztecs nor the Cherokee and every other indigenous American nation stood a chance.

Perhaps Cortez had it easier than most given that he was invited in as a revered guest since the Aztecs believed him to be their god Quetzalcoatl whom had promised to return to them at about the exact time Cortez appeared at Tenochtitlan's doorstep. As a result, they greeted him with gifts of gold and silver which was the very cause for Cortez to find motivation to take the city in the first place (Spain had sent him to the Americas to find gold and silver in the first place so they could fund the wars they were going broke over) and he fully leveraged their unfounded trust in him to do so. Yes, he enlisted aid and it was aid he needed but had the Aztecs treated him as they normally would've treated any outsider, history would've undoubtedly been a lot more in favor of the Aztecs.

 

[Toffer90]

Far out man, planetary alien vassal, lol.