A warlord-level quirk...?

[1940LaSalle]

By the thread title, you can infer that I'm still relatively new to the game. I've done reasonably well at chieftain and just recently tried to step up to warlord. Here's something I've found that's somewhat annoying: I'm minding my own business, cranking out workers, irrigating, building roads, and whatnot. Other civs make contact from time to time, and the first several times are amicable: we can reach deals easily. Sooner or later, though, one comes along and makes a demand: give us X or else. I tell them to go bother somebody else, and inevitably a declaration of war follows--and more often than not, they get the other civs to help, and it's me against everyone.

Naturally that (1) makes for a game that doesn't last long and (2) definitely detracts from enjoying the game. How do I deal with this/get around it: perhaps concentrate less on workers and more on armed forces toward the beginning? give the would-be extortionist some but not all of the demand? some other strategy?

Thanks in advance.

 

[creamcheese]

This is not just a warlord level thing, and it gets worse as you move up in difficulty and the AI has more of a lead. The key is either to have a significant military early on and guard everything or to give in to their demands until you can build up a military to go beat up on them

You can try buying the other AI into an alliance against the one who declared on you, as this will prevent them from attacking you and is frequently cheaper than losing a city or two. Also, on warlord I would not expect a very significant attack force from the AI early on, maybe some archers and maybe horsemen guarded by spears, and very few units all together, you should easily be able to fend them off and sue for peace.

Nevertheless this is one of the realities of Civ3, the AI tries to defeat you, and it knows when you are weak. Giving in to demands may seem like a bad thing to do, but you can mitigate losses by having very little to give, spend your gold buying techs and researching early on, and sell techs you your neighbors for GPT if you can (then if they declare on you, they lose that gpt and you can use it to fight them).

 

[ChaosArbiter]

sell techs you your neighbors for GPT if you can (then if they declare on you, they lose that gpt and you can use it to fight them).

Hm? If you sell a tech for GPT, and the person you sold the tech to declares war, they get that gpt *back.* Unless you meant buying a tech for GPT.

Anyway. Yes, it's going to happen more often as you increase the difficulty. Generally I agree to cash demands, but not techs (I'm currently working on Monarch). Build more Offensive units (Archers, Swords, and Horses) rather than Defensive units (Spears) - how much of the demand is a bluff is dependant on relative strength, so if you're relatively powerful, you can get away with denying more. And yes, if you can get other civs to declare on them before he signs them in against you, it'll be much cheaper.

 

[vmxa]

It is basically determined by the relative strengths. F3 will tell you how the AI sees you compared to them. If it says you are weak, expect a demand or a DOW.

Do not make spears, make swords instead and you should not be weak and reduce the chances of a demand. I only give in at DG or better. Below that I should not get any demands or they should not DOW, if I refuse.

 

[Raliuven]

Generally the answer is not to appear weak - that becomes harder and harder as the difficulty goes up and sometimes even little civs will threaten you out of some deranged AI insanity.

The existence and components of your military are key, but at warlord there is usually a more basic problem so let me run this past you and see if any of it fits -

REX - you are not expanding rapidly enough. At warlord the AI has a production penalty (meaning you have a production bonus compared to them). You should be able to take the lion's share of the land in your immediate area with no contest, even without the fine art of settler and worker factories. Once you have more cities than the AI, producing more military to kill them with shouldn't be a problem. In the opening sequence - EXPAND until there is no more land to grab. Producing settlers and workers is important.

City Improvements - you are building a lot of things you don't need instead of building up your military. Not every city needs everything - or more to the point - most cities only need a few things. The more you build, the higher the maintenance to pay for those buildings (and less money to pay your military) and the fewer the shields to build your military.

Tile Improvements - this can go either way. Since you said you are making workers and improving, I assume you do not under-improve. Every citizen should be working an improved tile when possible - that includes adding roads/RR to everything. However, don't waste a bunch of time improving tiles that you will not use for the next 1000 years. Move on to something that can immediately add value to your Civ. Adding value = adding gold and shields, both of which you need for a strong military.

 

[Ataxerxes]

It is basically determined by the relative strengths. F3 will tell you how the AI sees you compared to them. If it says you are weak, expect a demand or a DOW.

Do not make spears, make swords instead and you should not be weak and reduce the chances of a demand. I only give in at DG or better. Below that I should not get any demands or they should not DOW, if I refuse.

The AI is very practical - if it sees it can bully you, it will. My basic is, if I'm afraid of a DOW I give in. If I don't mind or appreciate a DOW, I tell them to stuff it. Problem is, if I want a DOW I'm stronger and usually don't get one.

Regarding Swords and Spears, a reason is that the AI respects attacking power more than defensive power. A Sword costs 30, a Spear costs 20 but, to the AI, the Sword looks twice as powerful. Besides, a spear protects the city but not the surrounding countryside from being pillaged.

 

[Spoonwood]

It is basically determined by the relative strengths.

No, it's more complicated than that or it's something different. I've played plenty of Sid and Deity games where the AI has much more strength than me, but I hardly ever get demands. I have the aggression level set at "least aggression" and they don't bother as much... perhaps because with lower aggression they start at "polite". Declarations of war still come out of the blue sometimes, but demands don't come all that often.

 

[vmxa]

Well you have to have something, before they can demand it. On Sid I try to spend my money or not even earn any extra during the AA. If I am going to be peaceful, I gift away my cash as fast as I can. If I am not going to be peaceful, then I do not hoard gold.

Of course it is a bit more complex than I said, but really that is the key. We are not going to know exactly how it works, so the other parts do not matter. The man is playing Warlord so he only needs a few more attack units to either not get any demands or not care, if he does.

 

[TheOverseer714]

There is a way to avoid extortions like that: never talk to the AIs unless you initiate contact.

 

[vmxa]

I would not be surprised, if that led to a DOW. They will surely be lowering thier attitude with you. As you know I am not an expert on relations as I mostly play AW anyway.

 

[creamcheese]

Hm? If you sell a tech for GPT, and the person you sold the tech to declares war, they get that gpt *back.* Unless you meant buying a tech for GPT.

Anyway. Yes, it's going to happen more often as you increase the difficulty. Generally I agree to cash demands, but not techs (I'm currently working on Monarch). Build more Offensive units (Archers, Swords, and Horses) rather than Defensive units (Spears) - how much of the demand is a bluff is dependant on relative strength, so if you're relatively powerful, you can get away with denying more. And yes, if you can get other civs to declare on them before he signs them in against you, it'll be much cheaper.

I meant buy.

 

[MysteryX]

If you want to play a game that emphasizes peaceful building, be prepared to give in to those demands from your neighbors early. Giving up some spare gold early on isn't that big of a deal.

If you don't want to pump out a military early on, you need to pay your protection money. That's the way it is.

If an opponent demands a resource, you might have to be careful. If you give in to that demand for Iron, 20 turns later the civ you gave the Iron to may march those swordsmen you helped him to create to repay you by taking some cities from you. On the other hand, if you are in a weak position, you may have no choice but to give in and hope they don't screw you.

Giving up a tech you haven't shopped around is a big deal- if you give up one to a demand, the civ who receives it is going to shop it around immediately. That's why it's good to get into the habit of immediately shopping around any new techs you receive- researched or traded- immediately upon the turn you receive them. They only go down in value after that turn.

If someone does declare war on you, bribe as many civs as possible immediately to declare war on your new enemy. Particularly, though, the most important allies to make are ones bordering your enemy. If you bribe a civ to ally with you, it will send units immediately into your enemy's territory, if it can. And many times, that mass of units that your enemy was sending after you will be diverted to defend it's borders from your new ally.

AI civs have trouble kissing and making up with each other after a war. If you are able to bribe them into fighting each other early on, there's a good chance they will remain furious at each other throughout the game, re-declaring war on each other over and over. Their wars with each other will grind down on their ability to produce research and wealth, and more importantly, while they are fighting each other they are ignoring you.

 

[Desertsnow]

Do build workers, yes. But for combat units, build offensive units rather than defensive units. Build just enough defenders to protect your settlers (of which you'll also want to build plenty), and maybe one or two more per city; the rest should be offensive units. There are two reasons for this, the first being that the best defense really is a good offense in this game. Have your sword or archer units attack the enemy attackers as they approach your cities. The other reason is that the AI fears offensive units more than defensive units, this in turn because it measures your military strength in terms of its offensive power.

 

[bigFRANK]

Warlord level go beat the other guy up with one or two Stacks of death and enjoy your new cities, make peace with all civs as soon as possible and then get trading, luxuries, techs and gold 20 turn deals. Dont overbuild workers (a couple per city is ideal), spearmen are useless swords are ideal in the ancient era.

 

[Raliuven]

Dont overbuild workers (a couple per city is ideal), spearmen are useless swords are ideal in the ancient era.

Don't underestimate the power of horsemen though. The movement makes them great 'reserves' and gives the abilityto skirmish. They can soften up targets and retreat, leaving wounded units your swords can safely (relatively) mop up. Horsemen can also execute an attack and retreat back to safety after a successful battle. Wounded swordsmen caught out of line can be picked off by the AI - that is what the AI loves to do.

Properly used you military can ward off the entire world. I think a combined arms approach is more important in the early game; less so in the later game.

 

[Bowsling]

Other than the Replacable Parts era. Before the AI gets infantry, you can afford to charge cities with cavalry, but once infantry come along, you really have to barrage the city for a turn or two with the artillery, and then assault.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Pick a few cities which are good shield producers, and build a barracks. Then each should produce the best offensive unit you can, at the time. Keep making them in a steady stream. Even if you don't plan to invade anyone, you can use them for: a) exploring, and popping goody huts b) accompanying settlers as you expand c) stationing near your borders, as "fog-busters" Barbarians won't appear where you have dispelled the fog of war. And most importantly, as others have written, d) You will appear strong to the AI, and they will be less likely to demand things or dow (declare war).

 

[Raliuven]

c) stationing near your borders, as "fog-busters" Barbarians won't appear where you have dispelled the fog of war. And most importantly, as others have written, d) You will appear strong to the AI, and they will be less likely to demand things or dow (declare war).

Just to clarify. If you move through an area you can now 'see' that part of the map and you have pushed back the darkness. If you move on, that area is still 'visible/revealed', but you are not observing what is happening at the moment. Barbarians can appear in the 'visible' parts of the map, but not the 'observed' parts of the map.

For example - later in the game, you are going for conquest so you destroy a Civ and leave all that railed land behind with only a few choice cities left behind and ship your army off for the next conquest. Suddenly barbarians start spring up all over the place, attacking your defenders, pillaging tiles, etc.

Unless you have a unit or cultural boundry so you can actively 'observe' the tile, it is available to produce barbarians.

Edit - I think that there may also be a small radius around the observed tiles that prevents barbs from reproducing. I cannot ever recall a barb camp appearing right at the boarder of observable land. But if there is a 'grace' in the calculation, it is not much.

 

[Ataxerxes]

Pick a few cities which are good shield producers, and build a barracks. Then each should produce the best offensive unit you can, at the time. Keep making them in a steady stream. Even if you don't plan to invade anyone, you can use them for: a) exploring, and popping goody huts b) accompanying settlers as you expand c) stationing near your borders, as "fog-busters" Barbarians won't appear where you have dispelled the fog of war. And most importantly, as others have written, d) You will appear strong to the AI, and they will be less likely to demand things or dow (declare war).

(e) You will be happy when they do DOW after you tell them to perform an impossible act in response. You don't have any diplo hits, can bribe other neighbors in and go after the cities that have luxuries.

The steady stream is a good general approach but sometimes you'll exceed your troop support. Oftentimes you can do well by building more wealth and then updating your existing border units. It's a peculiarity that a Mech Infantry takes as much unit support as a Warrior.

OP: The base advice is right. It isn't so much not producing workers as it is asking yourself if you really need that new building/wonder as much as you need more military. And as vorlon said, build a barracks before units.

 

[CKS]

Barbarians can appear in the 'visible' parts of the map, but not the 'observed' parts of the map.

A warning, though. Settlers and workers don't count for the purpose of preventing barbs from appearing. Barbarians can pop up in a brightly lit area if it is only lit because of a nearby worker.