Aabra02: Hammy Builds a House

[scoutsout]

Also, while the pentagon is in motion, I wouldn't fill armies with 4 units or they'll be stranded on this continent when we're done with Bre.

Oh man...I forgot to note this in my log...the Pentagon was queue'd up in a town that can't grow past size 6... and it was something like 100 turns out, so I swapped that town to an aqueduct. My apologies for a rude build-order change... but I thought we could build the Pentagon in a more productive town in a few turns.

 

[scoutsout]

Sorry for the double-post, but I was chatting with Harriet about the game, and a thought occurred to me that I thought I'd share with the team.

Here's my assessment of the tactical situation:

We are seriously weak when it comes to sea power. There are Privateers and Frigates about, and it doesn't really look feasible to own the seas during the age of sail in this one.

We have some good armies - a MDI army, a mixed Crusader/MDI army, a pair of Knight armies and a third on the way. We can probably own this continent with our current military.

Here's my assessment of the strategic situation:

We're behind in tech... hard to say how badly, but we're laggards.

When it comes time to invade The Other Continent, that will probably be a mid-industrial era slugfest. We can probably operate safely on the seas with Combustion-based ships. By that point, Guerrillas will be just as effective as Cavalry when it comes to combined arms fighting.

If we can get to the IA in a reasonable time frame, we should be able to make a trade for Military Tradition...to build the Military Academy...more than Cav.

My current thinking is that we should consider skipping all optional Middle Ages technologies, and get to the Industrial Age.

Some other thoughts on our cities:

Mecca: We need to continue the infrastructure builds here... we need a bank and a university there... with all the food available, I daresay we could build a hospital here. I'm tempted to sell of the barracks, and identify a neaby town to build units.

Babylon: This We should avoid building the Miltary Academy here - we may need it for a a shipyard. Also needs a university and a bank if we wind up burning the research candles in the Industrial Age.

 

[Whomp]

I'd agree with the tech picture.

The only thing I'm wondering is why a bank and university? To me they're one or the other. If we're burning research then the unis have obvious value however banks seem to be a pretty weak building.

 

[scoutsout]

The only thing I'm wondering is why a bank and university? To me they're one or the other. If we're burning research then the unis have obvious value however banks seem to be a pretty weak building.

Because we will probably be running minimum research for a while, so the banks will do us some good during that time frame. Once we light the research candles, we'll need the universities. Just my $0.02.

 

[gmaharriet]

Ok, I'll post my (tiny) log-to-date and the trade screenies for team consideration.

Aabra02-1150ad - Pre-flight

Short-rushed explorer in Glanum for 32g, back to knight. Put crusader in empty army and start 2 more crusaders from Fustat for army.

Camulodunum on starvation diet. Buy WM from Liz for salt.

IBT - Celt LB's to mountain near Iron City.

1) - 1160ad - Buy Physics from Joanie.

Trade Physics to Henry for Metal.

Sell WM to Portugal for 1gpt, WM and 17g.

Attack Lugdunum with Knight Army, kill 2 spears. Should be able to take it next turn with help from the trebs.

Short-rush LB at Glanum for Knight.

So what do we want to research now?

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Cavalries!

 

[scoutsout]

Do we really want to spend the next 50 turns burning towards cav that are probably going to be obsolescent by the time we can field them? I mean...I love cav, but the opportunity for a "early Cav charge" in the late MA is gone...

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

:sad puppy eyes:

 

[gmaharriet]

:sad puppy eyes:

I'm not sure if that means "please" or "sadly ok". I'll wait to resume play until Whomp and Bede have an opportunity to weigh in, and we have a bit more discussion.

 

[TheOverseer714]

lurker's comment: Cavalry aren't really obsolete until Infantry and Tanks become the main offensive/defensive team. There's always reason for having them. Plus, the path that gets you there allows cannons and has trade value with even more backward AI's. Even if i'm an era behind, I still research MT, if nothing else it allows the Military Academy to be built and strengthens your existing armies. I see the other continent is way ahead tech-wise from the screenies, what would you hope to get from the top half of the tree except better boats? Just my $.02 as a very interested lurker, seeing that the next Rat game will be a 1BC-AWM game.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

:sadly ok puppy eyes:

 

[scoutsout]

Cavalry aren't really obsolete until...

Obsolescent, not obsolete.

Plus, the path that gets you there allows cannons and has trade value

Harriet bought Physics and traded it for Metallurgy...so we're nearly done with that path.

Even if i'm an era behind...Military Academy ... other continent is way ahead tech-wise

Well, I'm not sure the other continent is "Way" ahead... but there are a couple of them in the industrial era. I would like to get the Military Academy, I just don't think we need it right away.

what would you hope to get from the top half of the tree except better boats?

Oh I dunno... a free tech from the start of the Industrial Era?

Seriously - my rationale for skipping MilTrad is not based on the usefulness of Cavalry - I'm not debating on that point. My rationale for skipping it is based in three issues with this game:

• We don't need Cavalry to push the Celts into the sea.
• With our current technology, we cannot build a navy that would let us take a fight to The Other Continent (where Cavs would be useful).
• We probably won't be in any shape to fight a war "over there" until sometime in the Industrial Era... so let's get to that stage ASAP.

 

[TheOverseer714]

lurker's comment: True, MT is an optional, and Babylon gets the free tech which may have trade value. Better boats are, well, better. At least I drew out your reasoning, which is quite sound. I'll bet Beorn would be deadly with cavs on galleys....

 

[scoutsout]

lurker's comment: True, MT is an optional, and Babylon gets the free tech which may have trade value.

lurker's comment: That's part of what I'm hoping for... and if we manage to draw Steam Power at the outset of the IA... that's a tech that we humans use better than the AI.

Better boats are, well, better.

Agreed. The only problem is that the coastal towns we do have aren't really in good enough shape to start cranking out a age-of-sail navy that could contend with the number of privateers and frigates I've seen. And none of that helps take out the Celts.

I'm interested to hear what Beorn and Bede have to say about this... I think Harriet is going to wait until at least one of them weighs in before continuing the set.

 

[Whomp]

Let's move to the IA's. The AI doesn't value MT the way we do. We'll get it somewhere along the way and we won't need cavs until we've built a more significant navy anyhow. Steam!

 

[gmaharriet]

Ok, I'll head for Magnetism. Thank you.

 

[Bede]

As usual scout's reasoning is convincing.

Cavalry won't help us until we have better boats and by the time that happens we will be meeting infantry which I much prefer to face with artillery and guerillas if we have to.

Setting out to conquer the world from a narrow AA and MA base is a real bearcat. But we seem to have gotten the lucky resource breaks (get 'em when we need 'em kind of thing) and MGL generation goes a long way to make up for the lack of production in most of the cities.

As long as all of us keep in mind that variant play is not about GOTM style fast finishes all manner of things will be well. What does it matter that the AI is a column of tech ahead when they are not standing at the end?

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

With the recent (and temporary) hit on our economy that came with the palace jump, we need to find outside help to keep up and our SCI trait is a great one for this, especially at this point. We are, moreover, the only SCI around IIRC. This means that whatever we draw, it's currently a monopoly worth every gpt, every coin and every tech out there.

So let's work from there. What I see unfolding from this decision is:

Plan A: We may benefit from sticking around until tanks. This would give us ample time to turn the old slumps of Arabia into a decent core and complete the FP in Babylon, then race to ToE with it. I'd use ToE on getting Motorized transportation, not Electronics. Build a *few* factories in productive and skip everything else at that point, cash-rushing the rest. This would effectively obsolete cavalries and give a lot less value to the early infantries the other continent will benefit from, compared to ours.

I'm sure we can get some warfare pillage action out of our armies by that time though, whatever plan we choose.

Plan B: Get hospitals ASAP, turning every celtic city into a super huge, railed modern beaker farm. We buy every lux out there, bully the ones we can't buy, get size 30 cities with the grassland celtic towns and try to build up production in the arab core in time for SS parts.

The 2 plans are not completely opposite: getting hospitals in celtic cities could be great for bringing our economy back up to par. Also, the bayonnets could very well give us an economical edge by levelling every other economy down below ours.

Spoiler TheOverseer :

If you want to see what cavalries, artilleries and rails can do, here's an old PBEM spoiler:
http://civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4071
The fun starts down at posts 15 to 20

And the 3 battle logs:
Entering Soul's Lair
Eating Soul
Cleaning up Germany

 

[gmaharriet]

I'm not going to be able to complete this tonight, but here's an interim report.

So far we got 2 more MGL's...made a knight army of one and The Pentagon with the other (no units to put into another army). Lugdunum and Eboracum have fallen and I'm hoping to get Entremont in the next couple of turns.

Stay tuned.....

 

[gmaharriet]

1) - 1160ad (Cont'd) -

Change research to slow burn on Magnetism.

IBT - Celt horses and LB's move next to Iron City. Privateer takes out English MoW.

2) - 1170ad - At Iron City, mixed MDI Army takes out Celt horse and an LB. eCrusader kills LB and we have another leader for another Army (but what to put into it?). eLB kills LB. Knight Army kills musket at Augustodurum.

Get the new crusader army filled at Medina.

Battle for Lugdunum:
2 trebs rl the single spear left there
eCrusader kills spear, Lugdunum is ours, 6 resisters -> library
Flip risk is high, move in wounded Army.

Short-rush musket in Glanum, knight in 2. We have another knight in Babylon and will begin another after the FP comes in in 2.

IBT - nada

3) - 1180ad - Moving workers and units.

IBT - Our spice trade with China ends. Mao wants both gems and dyes and, as much as I hate to give him 2, I do the deal for spices and 9gpt.

Forbidden Palace comes in.

4) - 1190ad - load 2 knights into empty army, moving troops and workers.

IBT - Lots of Celtic troops move toward us. Portuguese begin Smith's.

5) - 1200ad - short-rush musket in Babylon to get knight in 1 for army. Kill LB with crusader army outside of Cataractonium. Mixed army outside Eboracum kills 1 spear. Knight army kills LB outside Lugdunum. Knight army kills Gallic outside of Augustodurum.

IBT - More Celtic troops move closer, including a spear on our iron.

6) - 1210ad - mixed army kills spear on iron...cover iron with a musket.

Battle for Eboracum:
trebs go 4 for 6
crusader army kills 1 spear
eCrusader kills a spear and Eboracum is ours, 4 resisters -> lib

Kill 2 lb's outside Augustodurum with 2 knight armies. Get another leader at Iron city.

Rush lib in Cataractonium for 104g and market in Medina for 52g. Short-rush MDI in Curoverum for 52g, then knight.

IBT - Mao offers MPP and ROP for 48gpt. No thanks. Trade WM's with Liz.

7) - 1220ad - Sell Iron to Portugal.

Attack Entremont with knight army, kill 3 spears, but at least 1 left. Kill lb near curovernum with knight army, an lb near Iron City with another knight army and an lb near Augustodurum with a crusader.

Use newest leader to build Pentagon in Cataractonium.

Rush knight in Curovernum for 96g.

IBT - LB suicides at Augustodurum. Pentagon comes in. China starts Universal Suffrage.

8) - 1230ad - Rush knight in Glanum for 168g. Rush lib in Augustodurum for 88g. Move 2 crusader armies toward Entremont.

Whack some lb's between Augustodurum and Iron City.

IBT - Celtic LB suicides at Augustodurum and we lose a pike. We lose crusader to lb on mountain.

Chinese complete Bach's in Shanghai.

9) - 1240ad - Whack 2 lb's near Iron City and move now-healed knight armies forward. Kill lb outside Gergovia.

IBT - Celts complete Smith's in Entremont (perfect!!!). Chinese begin U.S. again!

10) - 1250ad - Attack Entremont with crusader army and then knight army, killing 3 spears and Entremont is ours with MoM and Smith's, 7 resisters, 4 slaves -> lib.

Kill lb outside Entremont with crusader army and lb outside Augustodurum with knight army.

Attack Agedincum with knight army, kill 3 lbs and Agedincum is ours, 4 resisters, 1 slave -> lib.

Afterturn notes:

There are no turns left our our alliances with England, France and Portugal against the Maya. It will likely come up on the next IBT.

The mixed army on the mountain S/E of Iron City still has movement...not sure where to send it to do the most good next turn.

There are 2 rax and 1 uni due to complete next turn in our new Arab core and several other builds I wasn't sure about. I'm sure our dear monk will know what to do with them.

High flip risk in Entremont and Agedincum.

Newsreel to follow in next post.

The save: