abbamouse Realistic Religions mod including Zoroastrianism
- Thread starter abbamouse
- Start date
In the game, I am really dissappointed how religion works. Religion is part of culture and the way how it spreads is just not realistic.
Imagine 2 civilizations both with two cities. Imagine that CIV 1 is highly developed and has a great cultural value, both cities are muslim. The other (neighbouring) civilization hasn't developed well, both cities have buddhism as their religion. Normally when you higher the culture rate, Islam should spread to the two neigbouring cities. What i want to say is that when a city adopts a religion it doesn' t adopt another one automatically, you have to send a missionary. In my opinion it should spread automatically when CIV 2 suffers from the high culture rate of CIV 1.
When I play civ 4 I get frustrated when I see that my cities adopt all kinds of different religions. That' s bull****. When my religion is set, it shouldn' t be so that 90% of the new cities adopt a different religion. Because when they adopt that religion, then no way I can wipe that religion out of my city and I have to send a missionary to that city.
When I would install your mod, it would mean that when a city adopts a different religion than the state religion, i can never change that city to my state religion. Because you modded the game in that way that only christian monasteries allow building of missionaries.
Imagine 2 civilizations both with two cities. Imagine that CIV 1 is highly developed and has a great cultural value, both cities are muslim. The other (neighbouring) civilization hasn't developed well, both cities have buddhism as their religion. Normally when you higher the culture rate, Islam should spread to the two neigbouring cities. What i want to say is that when a city adopts a religion it doesn' t adopt another one automatically, you have to send a missionary. In my opinion it should spread automatically when CIV 2 suffers from the high culture rate of CIV 1.
When I play civ 4 I get frustrated when I see that my cities adopt all kinds of different religions. That' s bull****. When my religion is set, it shouldn' t be so that 90% of the new cities adopt a different religion. Because when they adopt that religion, then no way I can wipe that religion out of my city and I have to send a missionary to that city.
When I would install your mod, it would mean that when a city adopts a different religion than the state religion, i can never change that city to my state religion. Because you modded the game in that way that only christian monasteries allow building of missionaries.
Simetrical
Chieftain
Dunno who first invented it, but yeah, Orthodox Jews have similar systems. More or less investing in a business rather than loaning money to it. So perhaps the cuts should be reduced somewhat.Tunch Khan said:
I don't think it would be particularly more realistic.abbamouse said:
No, but I would revamp its bonuses/penalties entirely, as explained in my previous post. Specifically, I would remove the resource bonuses you now have for Judaism and replace them with bonuses for cows, sheep, incense, and wine. The Temple of Solomon as I described it would be somewhat better than other shrines if your state religion is Judaism, but it would cause trouble if your religion is different, which would present the player with an interesting choice. Again, this all would be subject to tweaking, but the pilgrimage was a major part of the ancient Jewish religion.abbamouse said:
Jews, Christians, and Muslims weren't traditionally allowed to marry out of their faith either, incidentally.Shivam said:
Rabbi is an anachronistic term for any period before around 2000 years ago. Prior to that, care of the religion was largely in the hands of the priests (kohanim, singular kohen), or at least by tradition—the Pharisees weren't too happy with that, and tried to take over the religion. (They eventually succeeded, since the entire Sadducee faction collapsed after the destruction of the Temple; it was mostly a priestly faction, focusing around centralization in the Temple, with the same corruption that the Catholic Church later faced: money for salvation. When that was no longer an option, the Pharisee ideal of less focus on sacrifices and rituals and more on genuine repentance and devotion—embodied in the quote from Hosea, "and we will sacrifice bulls with our lips"—largely won out. But that's somewhat off-topic.)NickSD said:
You're absolutely right that they didn't have missionaries the way Christians do, but almost no religion did or does. Still, Abraham sure converted a lot of people, according to the Bible, and the Jewish kingdoms did make life more difficult for gentiles than Jews (spurring conversions for convenience's sake, much as Muslim states have historically done). The point is, all religions should be able to spread themselves without much trouble to their own cities at the very least.NickSD said:
It should be noted that Islam spread in large part through war. The game equivalent would be conquering a city, then converting it, not the city converting after a while by itself.NickSD said:
Simetrical
(Orthodox Jew)
MRM
Prince
NickSD said:
<The problem heere is we have 2 different kinds of "spread" - one is conversion, the other is immigration ( since moslems in europe are mainly immigrants, converted europeans are rare ) . Can be tricky to simulate this but a model thattake this into account is may be more realistic thaen the current spread in Civ4 ...
I think you have taken a very difficult issue here and done some amazing things with it. Hats off to you! Here is just some food for thought that I hope is helpful.
I'm not sure I like the fact that Confucianism is replaced by Zoroastrianism. I see your point, but I love having Confucianism in the game because I personally see it as simulating secularism (imagination and all). Moreover, many many people practice a cullmination of taoism and confucianism in their daily lives, thus making confucianism a valid form of worship. All I'm saying is that if you want to add faiths, I'm all for that, but don't take away what is already there.
Lastly, you have a number of checks and balances for all the faiths except hinduism, which is only affected by the cow resource. Hinduism is a very resilient faith as many outside religions attempting to convert hindus have failed time and time again. I would suggest adding a modifier that would make the spread of faiths into cities already practicing hinduism much less likely. Missionaries trying to spread faith 'x' to hindu cities should also face a negative modifier. To counter the resiliency of the faith, maybe hinduism could spread at a slower rate? Just a thought. What do you think?
Tad
I'm not sure I like the fact that Confucianism is replaced by Zoroastrianism. I see your point, but I love having Confucianism in the game because I personally see it as simulating secularism (imagination and all). Moreover, many many people practice a cullmination of taoism and confucianism in their daily lives, thus making confucianism a valid form of worship. All I'm saying is that if you want to add faiths, I'm all for that, but don't take away what is already there.
Lastly, you have a number of checks and balances for all the faiths except hinduism, which is only affected by the cow resource. Hinduism is a very resilient faith as many outside religions attempting to convert hindus have failed time and time again. I would suggest adding a modifier that would make the spread of faiths into cities already practicing hinduism much less likely. Missionaries trying to spread faith 'x' to hindu cities should also face a negative modifier. To counter the resiliency of the faith, maybe hinduism could spread at a slower rate? Just a thought. What do you think?
Tad
TheFourGuardian
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2004
- Messages
- 86
Hey, I do enjoy this mod,(although I'm having extreme difficulties in combining it with another mod(superciv.)
However, i did change a few things in your file due to something I heard about Zorastarism coming in later than it should. I changed its position to come at priesthood, and not only made meditation a much more worthwhile technology, but also made Zorasterism an earlier religion.
I am, however, awaiting some more changes to this mod before I start using it primarily.
However, i did change a few things in your file due to something I heard about Zorastarism coming in later than it should. I changed its position to come at priesthood, and not only made meditation a much more worthwhile technology, but also made Zorasterism an earlier religion.
I am, however, awaiting some more changes to this mod before I start using it primarily.
TheFourGuardian
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2004
- Messages
- 86
On the other hand, while Hinduism is one of the most practiced religions in the world, it's spread beyond India is somewhat less than other religions.(As opposed to say Budhism, which has spread to other areas but doesn't have any one mass of concentration that increases it's total to such high amounts as India.(Or so I believe.)
Perhaps Hinduism should work well with Missionaries but not spread naturally on its own nearly as fast?
Perhaps Hinduism should work well with Missionaries but not spread naturally on its own nearly as fast?
@abbamouse,
Just a couple of comments. First it's an historical error to tag Judaism as a "non-missionary" religion. Judaism was once an aggressive seeker of converts. Around the time of Christ, around 30% of the total population of the Empire is believed to have been practitioners of Judaism, many of them converts. In fact a lot of the bad feeling between Jews and Christians arose from the fact that they were competing for converts.
Jews eventually gave up their proselytizing role mainly because of the persecution it triggered from the increasingly powerful Christian community.
So I see no reason why Jews should not also have missionaries.
Secondly, it doesn't make much sense to have an increased spread rate of Judaism due to the "diaspora", when the diaspora was a particular historical event! The whole point of a game like Civ is that is enables you to rewrite history. There is no reason to suppose that the diaspora would have taken place in an alternative history, so an increased spread rate for Judaism seems rather arbitrary.
Finally, I'm not sure if it's fair to give Hindus -1 health for cows, because although Hindus don't *eat* cows, they certainly do use them for dairy products, which is arguably a more efficient use of cattle.
Just my two cents worth.
Just a couple of comments. First it's an historical error to tag Judaism as a "non-missionary" religion. Judaism was once an aggressive seeker of converts. Around the time of Christ, around 30% of the total population of the Empire is believed to have been practitioners of Judaism, many of them converts. In fact a lot of the bad feeling between Jews and Christians arose from the fact that they were competing for converts.
Jews eventually gave up their proselytizing role mainly because of the persecution it triggered from the increasingly powerful Christian community.
So I see no reason why Jews should not also have missionaries.
Secondly, it doesn't make much sense to have an increased spread rate of Judaism due to the "diaspora", when the diaspora was a particular historical event! The whole point of a game like Civ is that is enables you to rewrite history. There is no reason to suppose that the diaspora would have taken place in an alternative history, so an increased spread rate for Judaism seems rather arbitrary.
Finally, I'm not sure if it's fair to give Hindus -1 health for cows, because although Hindus don't *eat* cows, they certainly do use them for dairy products, which is arguably a more efficient use of cattle.
Just my two cents worth.
Islam and Christianity are present in nearly every region in the globe. Judaism is not. Judaism only has a significant presence mostly in USA, Canada, UK, Russia and of course Israel.
Judaism should have a very small spread rate, but an amazing resilance.
Judaism should have a very small spread rate, but an amazing resilance.
R-A-N-M-A
Chieftain
Don't forget there is a large Jewish population in Poland.
Catholism and Protestanism is far to broad. Besides the fact that Catholic/Orthodox devisions are deeper and older and probably easier to do since there are fewer inter Orthodox issues. Protestantism is essentially just noncatholic nonorthodox christians. Calvinists, Anabaptists(Hated by most forms of christianity around the time of great Schism), Lutherans and the Church of England being the most prevailent. Lutherans and Catholics were more likely to get along with one another than Calvinists and Lutherans. The Church of England was some what of a divine millieux between Catholism and more radical Protestants like the Puritans. It would be to hard to do a protestant catholic devition of christianity. If you did that You would have to do Catholism, Calvinism, Luthernism, The Church of England (Anglocan), and Anabaptism. A straight up Catholic/Orthodox differentiation would be easier, there is a certain level of religious homoginaiety as the Orthodox church spread from Greece to Ukraine and Poland then on to Russia. The Orthodox church was never part of the Catholic church it is its own brand of christianity founded in Greece (The first non hebrew bibles were Greek not roman). All christianity is derived from the Apostle Peter, hence why he is the first pope, but he didn't concider himself a Catholic, just a Christian. The Catholic Church as it is, is a Roman creation and the Orthodox a Greek creation, there is much more distiction between the two.
I only know more about Christian history since I am a chrstian, it may be just as viable to split up Islam or Hinduism. There are many differnt forms of Islam and i know there are sects of Hinduism dedicated souly to Vishnu (some perticularly to his avatar Krishna) and others to Shiva, and at one time to Brahma too. People are always too hung up on the Catholic Protestant split because it happened in western Europe.
A cool idea if you wanted to do a more modern religion would be to do Deism. Deism could be the result of Scientific Methode or Liberalism. Essentially what it entails is that God set the universe in motion and then just doesn't touch it. It was huge among the Philosophes of the Enlightenment and I am sure accounts for a large ammount of nonreligious simply spiritual belifes. Deism wouldn't be able to build anything like temples or cathedrals but they could build a version of monestaries as many philosophes were freverant anti church figures and willing to spread thier beliefs. As a result only deist monestaries could be the only ones built after Scientific Methode along with that it could give a bonus to science and commerce. You probably call the Deist equivalent of a missionary a Philosophe.
Or you could do state enfored aethism as a result of communism or facsim, it would be very similar to deism in that no church/cathedral could be built. It would cause a lasting sad face for every religion in a city before aethism is enforced but science and commerce and production bonuses would be available as a result. When it comes into effect all religious structures would be destroied and converted to gold. It would have to be spread souly by a type of anti-missionary figure that could only act within the state itself. It would give bonus happiness from wine and grains since alcoholism as a way to escape would rise. It would get bonus effectiveness under police state. Religions present would come back if state aethism colapses but religious structures would have to be rebuilt and holy city special structures would be concidered lost. State Aethism would be bad for happiness but good for production as it was intended. CIvs with organized religion, pacifism and Theocracy civics would hate state aethism more than normal.
If some of you aethists are offended by this take on it, as a counterpart Existentialism as a result of Industrialism or Radio or Mass Media. It would spread like any other religions as it is just a belief. No Churches, cathedral or monestaries for it at all. It would have to have a large spread rate and no missionaries, it itself would give happiness/science/commerce bonuses if the state religion, but it would give sad faces if there is another state relgion as most religions are intolerant of aethists. There would be no sad faces with free religion from it with. It would be the only belief not destroied by state aethism and would spread even faster throughout the state as a result.
A good feature would be to dissallow religions to simply spead over bodies of water without first having radio then the effect of it would be ampilfied by mass media.
Catholism and Protestanism is far to broad. Besides the fact that Catholic/Orthodox devisions are deeper and older and probably easier to do since there are fewer inter Orthodox issues. Protestantism is essentially just noncatholic nonorthodox christians. Calvinists, Anabaptists(Hated by most forms of christianity around the time of great Schism), Lutherans and the Church of England being the most prevailent. Lutherans and Catholics were more likely to get along with one another than Calvinists and Lutherans. The Church of England was some what of a divine millieux between Catholism and more radical Protestants like the Puritans. It would be to hard to do a protestant catholic devition of christianity. If you did that You would have to do Catholism, Calvinism, Luthernism, The Church of England (Anglocan), and Anabaptism. A straight up Catholic/Orthodox differentiation would be easier, there is a certain level of religious homoginaiety as the Orthodox church spread from Greece to Ukraine and Poland then on to Russia. The Orthodox church was never part of the Catholic church it is its own brand of christianity founded in Greece (The first non hebrew bibles were Greek not roman). All christianity is derived from the Apostle Peter, hence why he is the first pope, but he didn't concider himself a Catholic, just a Christian. The Catholic Church as it is, is a Roman creation and the Orthodox a Greek creation, there is much more distiction between the two.
I only know more about Christian history since I am a chrstian, it may be just as viable to split up Islam or Hinduism. There are many differnt forms of Islam and i know there are sects of Hinduism dedicated souly to Vishnu (some perticularly to his avatar Krishna) and others to Shiva, and at one time to Brahma too. People are always too hung up on the Catholic Protestant split because it happened in western Europe.
A cool idea if you wanted to do a more modern religion would be to do Deism. Deism could be the result of Scientific Methode or Liberalism. Essentially what it entails is that God set the universe in motion and then just doesn't touch it. It was huge among the Philosophes of the Enlightenment and I am sure accounts for a large ammount of nonreligious simply spiritual belifes. Deism wouldn't be able to build anything like temples or cathedrals but they could build a version of monestaries as many philosophes were freverant anti church figures and willing to spread thier beliefs. As a result only deist monestaries could be the only ones built after Scientific Methode along with that it could give a bonus to science and commerce. You probably call the Deist equivalent of a missionary a Philosophe.
Or you could do state enfored aethism as a result of communism or facsim, it would be very similar to deism in that no church/cathedral could be built. It would cause a lasting sad face for every religion in a city before aethism is enforced but science and commerce and production bonuses would be available as a result. When it comes into effect all religious structures would be destroied and converted to gold. It would have to be spread souly by a type of anti-missionary figure that could only act within the state itself. It would give bonus happiness from wine and grains since alcoholism as a way to escape would rise. It would get bonus effectiveness under police state. Religions present would come back if state aethism colapses but religious structures would have to be rebuilt and holy city special structures would be concidered lost. State Aethism would be bad for happiness but good for production as it was intended. CIvs with organized religion, pacifism and Theocracy civics would hate state aethism more than normal.
If some of you aethists are offended by this take on it, as a counterpart Existentialism as a result of Industrialism or Radio or Mass Media. It would spread like any other religions as it is just a belief. No Churches, cathedral or monestaries for it at all. It would have to have a large spread rate and no missionaries, it itself would give happiness/science/commerce bonuses if the state religion, but it would give sad faces if there is another state relgion as most religions are intolerant of aethists. There would be no sad faces with free religion from it with. It would be the only belief not destroied by state aethism and would spread even faster throughout the state as a result.
A good feature would be to dissallow religions to simply spead over bodies of water without first having radio then the effect of it would be ampilfied by mass media.
R-A-N-M-A
Chieftain
NickSD said:Good to hear---I thought they basically all got holocausted
That is one reason I can be really proud of my Polish Heritage, they were essentially the only European nation to never treat the jewish people like crap. As Christian I have emmense respect for Judism.
R-A-N-M-A
Chieftain
wilwil said:
There are 7 religions in civ 4. YOu are right though, the computer always seems to give up on making any religions after Judism. I am always stuck founding Taoism, Islam and Christianity and more often than not Judism and Confucianism. It always muddles my plans up.
And because so many very bloody wars have been going on for centuries over this split. The Ireland thing is sorta still going on in fact. Catholics haven't been warring with Orthodox like that.R-A-N-M-A said:
You've got the 100 years war (England vs. France) over the Catholic vs. Protestant thing.
Ireland. Centuries of war over the Catholic vs. Protestant thing.
You've got all the Spanish vs. England wars over the Catholic vs. Protestant thing, which is represented in my scenario, because this war spread to Florida big-time. And I need it to be represented in my scenario.
Nick
Virote_Considon
The Great Dictator
NickSD said:
IIRC, before, during, and for quite a while afterwards, England was Catholic. It was only during Henry VIII's rule that it changed.
Unless you mean France, but I'm sure they were Catholic then, too...
I thaught the thing in Ireland is more about land, and that the Religion thing was just a factor??? (Of course, there, I'm probably getting mixed upNickSD said:
)Oh, and when I get Civ 4, this mod is getting downloaded!!!
R-A-N-M-A
Chieftain
Virote_Considon said:IIRC, before, during, and for quite a while afterwards, England was Catholic. It was only during Henry VIII's rule that it changed.
Unless you mean France, but I'm sure they were Catholic then, too...
I thaught the thing in Ireland is more about land, and that the Religion thing was just a factor??? (Of course, there, I'm probably getting mixed up
Oh, and when I get Civ 4, this mod is getting downloaded!!!
The catholic protestant thng also has to do with the fact that they sent scottish settlers to colonize Ireland. France was never anything but officially catholic, they had a large calvinist minority but the state religion was Catholism.
