abbamouse Realistic Religions mod including Zoroastrianism

[Simetrical]

Islam and Christianity are present in nearly every region in the globe. Judaism is not. Judaism only has a significant presence mostly in USA, Canada, UK, Russia and of course Israel.

Judaism should have a very small spread rate, but an amazing resilance.

Again, this is only because of historical accident. Judaism became an underdog close to 2000 years ago, and it hasn't been able to convert much of anybody.

That is one reason I can be really proud of my Polish Heritage, they were essentially the only European nation to never treat the jewish people like crap.

Well, currently Jewish tours to Auschwitz and the like have to go under armed guard to protect the tourists from attacks by anti-Semitic Poles. My sister went on one such tour, and the rabbi of my synagogue used to organize them, so I'm pretty sure of that. The Netherlands, for instance, probably has a cleaner record than Poland regarding the Jews.

Sorry for going off-topic, I just couldn't let that stand. I won't say anything further on the topic.

Catholism and Protestanism is far to broad.

All the religions are very broad. Taoism isn't even clearly definable. Judaism would include the Sadduccees, Pharisees, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist at various periods, and the differences in their ideologies are much greater than between Catholicism and mainstream Protestantism (consider the Orthodox believing that all Jews have to strictly obey the Oral Law's hundreds of often seemingly arbitrary commandments, as opposed to the Reform who don't believe in observing almost any of them).

And because so many very bloody wars have been going on for centuries over this split.

Many would argue that those simply used the split as an excuse, that it wasn't a reason. It's hard to say exactly; clearly the religious differences weren't the only reasons for the various wars, but whether they were a major contributing factor is up for debate. I would tend to believe that religious differences would generally be important in gaining popular support for the wars, but not so much in initiating them.

 

[Tad]

i also think that missionary class units should be able to cross culture borders even if an open borders pact does not exist. borders don't seem to stop missionaries in the real world, so why in civ? maybe some additional civics modifications would have to be made in order for that to work, but i think unrestricted movement for missionaries would be more realistic.

 

[mythmonster2]

Actually I am a Muslim and the Imam (there was only one at a time) actually was sort of the ruler of Muslim empires not the guy who spreads it.

 

[abbamouse]

Well Imam means different things to different Muslims. Shia Islam tends to be much stricter about who counts as an Imam than Sunni Islam. Is there a better term that all Muslims would recognize as an ordinary, relatively low-ranking teacher of the faith?

 

[abbamouse]

Tad -- borders do stop missionaries. See Japan, China, etc. Rulers are quite reluctant to allow outsiders to proselytize, since they see that religious control may lead to political control. The reason we think missionaries don't respect borders is that Western countries threatened Eastern and other rivals into opening their borders to missionary activity; indeed, sometimes wars were fought over the exclusion of missionaries. Moreover, when religious refugees cross borders they are often prohibited from proselytizing (example: the Parsis were Iranian Zoroastrians fleeing Muslim dominance -- to this day, they don't accept converts because that was the agreement made in return for refuge in India).

 

[abbamouse]

Tunch Khan: Islamic societies do indeed find alternatives to interest, but they are less efficient. For example, profit-sharing only substitutes for interest when the bank and debtor have common beliefs about potential profitability. Where the bank is unsure of profitability, it will not lend based on profit-sharing. Similarly, many alternatives to interest rely on joint ownership of businesses; these expose the bank to more risk than merely sitting back and collecting interest does. The result is that banks are reluctant to extend credit to people or businesses that would take out loans at high interest rates in non-Muslim societies, e.g. risky borrowers. Finally, these alternative arrangements involve high transaction costs, which may swamp the potential profits from a small loan to an individual. So there are some limits to Islamic banking, since they can do most things non-Muslim banks can do EXCEPT for charging interest. Fewer economic options = higher chance of inefficiency in the market.

 

[upthorn]

About the whole Jew spread issue...

Judaism shouldn't spread quickly, as Orthodox Judaism states that in order to be considered Jewish, your mother must have been Jewish. And Judaism does not have a missionary tradition.

Perhaps to simulate this, without crippling Judaism horribly, you should get 3 Rabbis on founding it. Rabbis should not be buildable, but cities with Synagogues, and the Temple of Solomon, should automatically produce a Rabbi every x turns. x should be about a fourth to half the number of turns it takes a large city with no wonders (but specialists) to create a great person.

PS: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Taoism and Hindu really have missonary traditions either. Perhaps this set-up could work with them, too, but 100% spread rate, and longer missionary creation time.

Well, it's just a thought.

 

[NickSD]

The reason we think missionaries don't respect borders is that Western countries threatened Eastern and other rivals into opening their borders to missionary activity; indeed, sometimes wars were fought over the exclusion of missionaries.

Exactly.

See the First and Second Opium Wars (France/England vs. China).

 

[Ahwaric]

Well, currently Jewish tours to Auschwitz and the like have to go under armed guard to protect the tourists from attacks by anti-Semitic Poles.

Hmm, i've been to Aushwitz a few times and don't recall anything like that. I admit, there are some "anti-Semitic Poles", but you can find them everywhere. You really don't need armed guards though.

The Netherlands, for instance, probably has a cleaner record than Poland regarding the Jews.

Check this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_Among_the_Nations
Sorry for going off-topic, I just couldn't let that stand.

And about jewish missionaries. There were one nation (Khazar Empire) converted to judaism this way. Check this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar

I also would like to express my support for the mod idea. Religions are different and they change a lot (for exaple the influence of buddism on Tibet and Mongolia - formely very aggresive countries).
But i think that confucianism should stay. And for the game-balance I think that missionaries should stay for every religion. You should add rather flavors (like slight commerce bonus or health bonuses) than greatly change the rules. I also like the changes to taoism.
Will give it a try.

 

[butlerj1982]

Where, exactly, did you get the idea Taoists were "anti-State" ? I've been a practicing Taoist for a long time and i've never heard of such nonsense.

I dont want to sound like one of those "YOU OFFENDED MY RELIGION IN A GAME!", but the Taoism bonus in this mod doesnt make a whole lot of sense.

 

[dh_epic]

The problem is no bonus will ever make sense to everyone -- even the adherents of that same religion.

Even the constant statement "judaism is not a missionary religion" is simply untrue if you go back far enough in the religion's history.

 

[MattJek]

Well, currently Jewish tours to Auschwitz and the like have to go under armed guard to protect the tourists from attacks by anti-Semitic Poles. My sister went on one such tour, and the rabbi of my synagogue used to organize them, so I'm pretty sure of that. The Netherlands, for instance, probably has a cleaner record than Poland regarding the Jews.

I find it sad and disturbing that you chose to include this shameless and stereotypical slander in this forum. I have been to Auschwitz myself and I have found that the local populations has a lot of respect for ALL the people that have been murdered in the death camp. No, no one needs "armed guards" and no one conducts "attacks" on the visitors, regardless of their religion. Im really discouradged that you had to include these lies on this forum. Especially since this it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

[MrThing]

I am glad that people are working on religion mods since it is good to see some differences between religions arise.

It is always a touchy issue these days and it is impossible to do perfectly becaue of all the various forms of each of the major religions which have arisen over many centuries but it is good to see some basic implematation.

It would be nice if we could do things like have the different major divisions of some the the religions but that would expand things too much.

Some observations:

Hinduism iin principle is not really supposed to expand beyond India and basically means something to the effect of 'the faiths of those who live in India.' In this way most Hindus regard Buddists as a division within Hinduism. But whoever institutes it sould have little trouble making and keeping all their cities Hindu. It sould also demand that you have a caste system.

Polytheism should be a prerequisite for whatever is to give you Buddism.

Is it possible to make monotheists a big problem when a minority under a different state religion? Historcally this is very consistant. It would be neat if a Jewish city in a non-Jewish Civ tended to try to break away to form their own Civ (Civ IV does not however seem to support break away states) and if Christain cities in a non-Christian Civs tended to be very unhappy to preassure you into becoming Christain. I would have Islamic minorities behave the same as Christain but I would also have it so that Jewish and Chriatain minorities do not mind so much being part of Islamic Civs because they are protected under Islamic law. Christain and Jewish states should be intorerant of others faiths in their boarders until after the Enlightenment, so cities of other faiths should be unhappy until that time.

One religion I would like to see added is something like the "high" paganism of the Roman Empire. I usually play as Hindu and pretend that it is the paganism of Julian the Apostate.

 

[Tad]

Tad -- borders do stop missionaries. See Japan, China, etc. Rulers are quite reluctant to allow outsiders to proselytize, since they see that religious control may lead to political control. The reason we think missionaries don't respect borders is that Western countries threatened Eastern and other rivals into opening their borders to missionary activity; indeed, sometimes wars were fought over the exclusion of missionaries. Moreover, when religious refugees cross borders they are often prohibited from proselytizing (example: the Parsis were Iranian Zoroastrians fleeing Muslim dominance -- to this day, they don't accept converts because that was the agreement made in return for refuge in India).

i hear what you are saying, but i know of many examples where missionaries from certain faiths have gone undercover and broken laws to proselytize. unwanted missionaries has always been a huge problem, and i thought it could be fun to try and role-play that in the game.

however, i've actually come to be against my idea, but not because of international law. rather, players could find themselves using missionaries as scouts to explore areas where no open borders treaty is in play, and i don't like that idea.


Tad

 

[abbamouse]

1. Anti-Semitism was widespread throughout Europe during the last 500 years. Search Google for "Polish anti-Semitism" or "Dutch anti-Semitism" or "_______ anti-Semitism" for examples. To narrow your search add in phrases like "19th century" or "18th century" or "pogrom." No European country with a substantial Jewish population comes out well if you do a little digging.

2. butlerj1982: As for Taoism, I picked up the anti-state stereotype because it was so often oppressed by those seeking to establish state authority through religion. Moreover, academic sites like Stanford's religion pages contain quotes like this:

"Dao-centered philosophical reflection engendered a distinctive ambivalence in advocacy -- manifested in their indirect, non-argumentative style, their use of poetry and parable. In ancient China, the political implication of this Dao-ism was mainly an opposition to authority, government, coercion, and even to normal socialization in values. Daoist 'spontaneity' was contrasted with subtle or overt indoctrination in any specific or social dao."

Likewise, Taoism was often associated with rebellious groups and millenarian movements. I think there is something to the idea of Taoism being anti-authoritarian. One last quote from the same page:

Meantime, "Daoist" religious groups (often rebellious or millenarian movements) emerged in varied forms in each dynasty. Because of its "naturalistic" and anti-authoritarian ethos, the term could encompass virtually any "local" religion with its familiar natural "Gods."

For more about why I made the Taoism/anti-statist connection, see
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/taoism/, where I found the above quotes (although I've read plenty of books on Taoism as well, and they also emphasize its anti-authoritarian philosophy).

 

[Simetrical]

Judaism shouldn't spread quickly, as Orthodox Judaism states that in order to be considered Jewish, your mother must have been Jewish.

Or you have to be ritually converted, as many people are (although obviously several orders of magnitude fewer than those converted to Christianity).

And Judaism does not have a missionary tradition.

It did, however, encourage conversion if you go back to around 150ish BCE (the Maccabean Kingdom, a theocracy) or earlier. The more devout kings would have idolaters executed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Taoism and Hindu really have missonary traditions either.

I don't think any major religion has a missionary tradition. Not like Christianity does, anyway. Some might favor those of their own religion over others to an extent sufficient to encourage conversion in states controlled by those of the religion, or they might flat-out force conversion where possible, but going around peacefully trying to persuade random strangers through argument that they should convert? I've never heard of such a thing, outside Christianity.

[Hinduism] sould also demand that you have a caste system.

Modern-day India has theoretically outlawed the caste system, and it's certainly Hindu.

i hear what you are saying, but i know of many examples where missionaries from certain faiths have gone undercover and broken laws to proselytize.

Ideally, I think that if nonmilitary units enter the borders of a state that doesn't have Open Borders with their owners, the one whose territory was violated should have a choice: treat it as a declaration of war, or ignore it. In the former case, it would be treated as a declaration of war for the purposes of Defensive Pacts and the like; in the latter case, the violating units could still be killed/captured by the violated player without triggering war.

But that's a really, really minor issue for the amount of work it would take, and it doesn't have much if anything to do with this mod.

Edit:

Is there a better term that all Muslims would recognize as an ordinary, relatively low-ranking teacher of the faith?

Mullah?

 

[Gufnork]

I didn't bother to read through the entire thread (sorry), just a few issues I saw when I read your first post:

Harbor produces +1 health for crab and clam and Grocer +1 health for wine. Have you forgotten about that or just haven't found a way to solve it?

Gah, I forgot my second point. But it was a very, very good one.

 

[Calantyr]

I find it sad and disturbing that you chose to include this shameless and stereotypical slander in this forum. I have been to Auschwitz myself and I have found that the local populations has a lot of respect for ALL the people that have been murdered in the death camp. No, no one needs "armed guards" and no one conducts "attacks" on the visitors, regardless of their religion. Im really discouradged that you had to include these lies on this forum. Especially since this it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Not quite true. There have been news reports of people attacking Jewish tour groups heading to camps such as Auschwitz. However it wasn't the locals doing it. It was Neo-Nazi's and the like who were going to the camps on pilgrimmages to celebrate them. Do a Google search and you should be able to find them. There are some twisted people out there.

Now more on topic, I love this mod! A couple of suggestions though, I'm not sure if they have been mentioned already though.

The Ottoman Empire allowed other religions freely in their state as long as they paid additional taxes. As the Ottomans were the de facto rulers of the Islamic world for quite some time perhaps this should be modelled? Extra happiness for other religions present in a city, or extra tax value for every religion other than Islam?

I'd also like to see additional religions. Christianity split into Catholicism, Orthodox, and Protestantism. That way you could have religious discovery existing longer than just the first 15 minutes of the game and it would allow more diversity. I'm not sure if this is possible though.. game limitations?

Apologies if already mentioned.

 

[MattJek]

Not quite true. There have been news reports of people attacking Jewish tour groups heading to camps such as Auschwitz. However it wasn't the locals doing it. It was Neo-Nazi's and the like who were going to the camps on pilgrimmages to celebrate them. Do a Google search and you should be able to find them. There are some twisted people out there.

OK thats true. But to call them "Poles" I think thats a little racist and stereotypical. Id have no problem if he called them "Neo-Nazis".

 

[rappstar]

I find it sad and disturbing that you chose to include this shameless and stereotypical slander in this forum. I have been to Auschwitz myself and I have found that the local populations has a lot of respect for ALL the people that have been murdered in the death camp. No, no one needs "armed guards" and no one conducts "attacks" on the visitors, regardless of their religion. Im really discouradged that you had to include these lies on this forum. Especially since this it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

"Sad and disturbing," "shameless and stereotypical slander," "lies?" That's pretty provocative language. Especially since it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I have to admit; I too, was a bit miffed by R-A-N-M-A's statement. My family would take issue with the treatment of Jews. But I also appreciate the pride one feels in their heritage. And he has a lot to be proud of. I felt that while it may have been wiser to have let it alone, Simetrical's comments were intended to elucidate and not antagonize.