abbamouse Realistic Religions mod including Zoroastrianism

Koh and Cyberchrist: Hindus still get some health from cows' milk, but they have to wait until refrigeration and supermarkets. I always felt that the initial health bonus was eating the meat, as it is with pigs and deer. The second health bonus, on the other hand, is from being able to ship milk throughout the empire due to refrigeration. (Local milk consumption is already accounted for by the tile bonus).

On Zoroastrianism: I'll look into the health effects of the Parsees' disposal of the dead. I'm sure there's an article or two somewhere in the research literature.

On Terrorism: I give my students an assignment which asks them to define terrorism (nature of the acts involved, whether motive matters, whether who commits the act matters, whether the civilian/military nature of the target matters, whether there is a peacetime/wartime distinction, etc) and then consistently apply the definition to historical summaries from which I have removed the proper nouns. Their grade depends only on being consistent with their own definition. They routinely describe the US as committing terrorist acts (support for the Nicaraguan contras always makes the cut, and sometimes the Boston Tea Party does as well -- vandalism of corporate goods because the hated government was favoring the corporation to the detriment of consumers), as well as Syria (sponsorship of some attacks in Lebanon), Israel (the King David Hotel bombing, the assassination of Gerald Bull), Russia (sponsorship of a Bulgarian exile's assassination), and France (bombing of the Greenpeace ship Rainbow Warrior). Oh, and many of them say that wife-batterers are also terrorists (use of violence to provoke fear), as are animal rights and abortion-clinic arsonists. I'm sure if I had more examples I could get them to label virtually any country as terrorist because if you apply a definition consistently it will almost always sweep in more than you expect.

And as for CyberChrist's definition of terrorism, it he has defined resistance in such a way that every act of resistance is an act of terrorism (but not necessarily the other way around). Resistance is a subset of terrorism under this pair of definitions -- a violent attack to force someone to evacuate your country ("meet specific demands").

My definition of terrorism focuses on target choice (civilians), methods (threat of physical harm, not mere property destruction), and goals (political or social change -- i.e., not the mafia trying to extort money or some guy trying to keep his girlfriend from leaving him). This does exclude things like the bombing of the USS Cole, however, which makes some people uncomfortable.
 
Oh, and I posted a new version of the mod, with fixed graphics, a new name for Islamic Missionaries, and a free Rabbi for Jews :)

Has anyone figured out how to give more than one free unit when you found a religion? I'd like to give Judaism some free Rabbis at the beginning and a slower spread rate thereafter.
 
abbamouse said:
Koh and Cyberchrist: Hindus still get some health from cows' milk, but they have to wait until refrigeration and supermarkets.
Keep me out of the Hindu Cows debate - my 'beef' is with the Harbor and Grocer changes :p


abbamouse said:
And as for CyberChrist's definition of terrorism, it he has defined resistance in such a way that every act of resistance is an act of terrorism (but not necessarily the other way around).
I am horrified to hear that someone that is educating other people not being able to(deliberately unwilling to?) see the difference between the two as I have described them. Let me try to rephrase.

1) Resistance targets military targets of occupying forces in your own country for the singular purpose of liberating your own country
2) Terrorism is all other acts of violence on any larger/organized scale that is not taking place due to a state of full scale war and/or are directed against civilians - with any kind of political gain/goal being the purpose/reason
 
abbamouse said:
Monasteries cannot build Jewish Missionaries (it hasn't been a missionary faith for millenia).

That might be true now, but it was not always the case. Just because Judaism is racially exclusive (to a certain extent) now does not mean that it was always so. In fact, God's command of 'be a light onto the nations' was taken as liberty to convert goys to the faith. Not only that, but the depopulation of the Hebrews at the hands of the Assyrians, Macedonians and Romans meant that proselytisation was required for Judaism to even survive.

At this point I’d like to quote Jospeh Reinach, a French politician of Jewish origin, writing in 1919 for Journal des Debats

The Jews of Palestinian origin constitute an insignificant minority. Like Christians and Moslems, the Jews have engaged with great zeal in the conversion of people to their faith. Before the Christian era the Jews had converted to the monotheistic religion of Moses other Semites, Greeks, Egyptians and Romans in large numbers. Later, Jewish proselytism was not less active in Asia, in the whole of North Africa, in Italy, in Spain and in Gaul. Converted Romans and Gauls no doubt predominated in the Jewish communities mentioned in the chronicles of Gregoire de Tours. There were many converted Iberians among the Jews who were expelled from Spain by Ferdinand the Catholic and who spread to Italy, France, the East and Smyrna. The great majority of Russian, Polish and Galician Jews (the provider, in time, of what might be called political Zionism’s hardcore) descend from the Khazars, a Tartar people of Southern Russian who were converted in a body to Judaism at the time of Charlamagne.
 
abbamouse said:
Resistance is a subset of terrorism under this pair of definitions -- a violent attack to force someone to evacuate your country ("meet specific demands").

I think the hair we're splitting is a little off-base. If anything, it underscores the complete lack of consensus in this country as to what "terrorism" is other than a buzzword for politicians to score political points. I disagree, however, that resistance is a subset of terrorism; some forms of resistance do not employ terror. I would go so far as to say that so long as those engaging in violent resistance confine their attacks to military personnel, it probably isn't terrorism. Unfortunate? Reprehensible? Potentially, but that's not necessarily terrorism.

Here's the basis for my distinction: at least under international law, those taking up arms against an occupying force are not guilty of war crimes. Clearly, they can be punished if caught by those occupying powers, but they are entitled to Prisoner of War status. It's the principle of levee en masse. A more detailed explanation can be found here. (Incidentally, the crimesofwar.org page is full of useful information; we recently used the book in several courses on international law).

At any rate, I feel this is all getting just a touch off-topic. I just downloaded the mod and am sincerely looking forward to giving it a go!
 
zulu9812 said:
That might be true now, but it was not always the case. Just because Judaism is racially exclusive (to a certain extent) now does not mean that it was always so. In fact, God's command of 'be a light onto the nations' was taken as liberty to convert goys to the faith. Not only that, but the depopulation of the Hebrews at the hands of the Assyrians, Macedonians and Romans meant that proselytisation was required for Judaism to even survive.

At this point I’d like to quote Jospeh Reinach, a French politician of Jewish origin, writing in 1919 for Journal des Debats

Btw, Reinach might have said it in 1919, but modern genetic evidence indicates in insignificant contribution of Khazar DNA. On the other hand, you are correct that Judaism was a missionary faith untl the rise of Christianity & Islam made it dangerous for Jews to do so. The genetic evidence indicates, interestingly (or perhaps unsuprisingly, given the circumcision requirement), that most of these converts were women . The end of prostelyization by Jews was a historical accident, not something endemic to Judaism (as Judaism's aversion to pigs, clams, and crabs is).

On the other hand, Judaism has NO monastic tradition, so renaming "monastaries" as "yeshivot" makes sense.
 
abbamouse said:
Israel (the King David Hotel bombing, the assassination of Gerald Bull)

The King David Hotel was a legitimate military target - it was British military HQ. It also wasn't done by Israel, but by the pre-state Irgun/Stern Gang (which were banned by the State). That being said, there were at least some civilians at the hotel.

Placing the assassination of Gerald Bull in the terrorism category is totally ridiculous. Bull was a contractor working for a hostile foreign government building weapons to target Israel. He was the very definition of a military target. With the exception of ex-Nazis, Israel has never targeted civilians (civilians have, of course, died as collateral damage in military activities).
 
Cyber, if the definition of terrorism is so simple why hasn't it been defined yet? Yes that's right.. because the Jews who control the world ('s politics and money) don't want israel to be condemned as a terrorizing county, since all it does is freak civilizians (and resistors, of course)

My (better) idea is to simply bind the temples' happiness with state religion happiness... this way it won't give any :)s unless it matches with the state religion

Btw, I think it's easy to make the first discoverer of a (religious) tech receives 5 (missionary) units, right? We just add more lines I think

Abbamouse, I'd say you're a bit biased because you didn't include any Western terrorism towards Arabs/Moslems like the atrocious assasination of Shekh Ahmad Yaseen or even the British conspiracy to bomb the sect-meeting in Iraq

Karlds: Speaking of POWS, read my signature
 
Fachy said:
Cyber, if the definition of terrorism is so simple why hasn't it been defined yet? Yes that's right.. because the Jews who control the world ('s politics and money) don't want israel to be condemned as a terrorizing county, since all it does is freak civilizians (and resistors, of course)
Seems that prejudism and racism are both (sadly) still alive and doing well in this world - and even on this forum. :rolleyes:

But I fear we have long since passed the borders of threadjacking here and I will not post any further on the subject (on this thread anyway).


Back on topic then Temples only giving happiness under state religions wont achieve the desired effect of multiple religions in the same city increasing unhappiness that needs to be countered (with temples).
 
Accusing me of racism wasn't very convincing... not just because I don't consider it an insult, but also because the whole world has grew (or let's say: remained) racist; spearheaded by israel and her major supporter: the us. Anyway we're not going anywhere with this

Ok, so why do you want to make unhappiness then build temples to counter them, when you can simply make happiness only occur with state religion temples? I don't think we should "punish" the player because they had foreign religions enter their borders, we should just give them bonus when they build temples matching their own state religion. Makes life simpler

Remember that when a new religion enters a city, and converts some of its population (who belonged to the old religion already), that creates tension. SO if a new temple is built: new converts are happy, but old (conservatives) are mad because the gov is acknowledging the new religion's presense. So it really ends off balanced
 
Fachy said:
Cyber, if the definition of terrorism is so simple why hasn't it been defined yet?
It has been: "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons." This definition automatically excludes all states: Israel isn't terrorist, Iraq wasn't terrorist, China isn't terrorist, you name it. No regard to race, just nationhood. And it makes the Palestinians terrorists but the Israelis just fine. Strangely, though, it leaves out the civilian component, which means that even Iraqi militants who exclusively target American soldiers are terrorists, while of course America is just fine.

Of course, this is disputed. The principal alternative definition depends on attacking civilians (or noncombatants, or people not directly aiding a war you disagree with, take your pick), but can possibly include states as well; under this definition, Palestinians who attack Israeli civilians not directly aiding war definitely are terrorists, but those who attack Israeli soldiers definitely aren't. On the other hand, Israelis who attack people they believe to be enemy combatants probably aren't terrorists, but those who attack or threaten to attack people they don't believe to be enemy combatants are. Problem with the latter is, it's hard to say whether any given killing of a noncombatant was made with knowledge of their noncombatant status; those who support Israel would of course be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt, while those who are against it would not be.

However, I submit that this latter definition (which abbamouse endorsed) is clearly flawed. Here is a scenario akin to those abbamouse gives to his students, although a bit more blanked out:
A publicly threatens that if they find out that anyone does X, they will kill him. A later determines that B did in fact do X after being warned, and proceeds to kill him. X is something that A believes is wrong, and A intended to deter it. No state of war is in effect, and no one in the scenario is a combatant under any conventional definition.​
Everyone apply your definitions, and let's see what it turns out to be. :D
karlds82 said:
At any rate, I feel this is all getting just a touch off-topic.
Well, I figure that as long as the creator of the mod has no problem with it . . . :mischief:
Koheleth said:
Placing the assassination of Gerald Bull in the terrorism category is totally ridiculous. Bull was a contractor working for a hostile foreign government building weapons to target Israel. He was the very definition of a military target. With the exception of ex-Nazis, Israel has never targeted civilians (civilians have, of course, died as collateral damage in military activities).
Well, Bull was an enemy contractor, but not an enemy combatant. Is anyone who authorizes or aids a war a legitimate target for assassination? How about medics, for starters? Or people driving trucks filled with food to give to soldiers? Or is it only people involved in making or transporting actual weapons? Standards vary.

Of course, it's not completely certain that the Israelis even did it.
Fachy said:
Yes that's right.. because the Jews who control the world ('s politics and money) don't want israel to be condemned as a terrorizing county, since all it does is freak civilizians (and resistors, of course)
Damn, I wish I controlled the world. ;) Jews don't actually control the world at all. They have a strongly disproportionate effect on it compared to their numbers, but they have zero influence outside the Middle East and a bare few Western nations (the U.S. being the principal example). The United States' support for Israel, furthermore, has a lot more to do with Christians (80% of America, substantial percentage views Israel as the Holy Land and Jews as the former Chosen People of God) than Jews (2% of America, although disproportionate influence as noted).
Fachy said:
like the atrocious assasination of Shekh Ahmad Yaseen
Again, there are different definitions of terrorism. Yours is not the only correct one, and it is not the only one that does not involve racist double standards. Some would say that advocating terrorism (do you agree by any chance that Palestinians blowing up random Israeli men, women, and children is terrorism?) is itself sufficient to make someone a valid target for assassination. Others would disagree.
Fachy said:
Accusing me of racism wasn't very convincing... not just because I don't consider it an insult, but also because the whole world has grew (or let's say: remained) racist; spearheaded by israel and her major supporter: the us.
And Israel has attacked only Palestinians and not other Arabs, why? There are plenty of Israeli Arabs, and hey, they even have votes! Surely ideal targets for racist attacks. But, oddly, Israeli attacks have overwhelmingly targeted places that tend to produce people who attempt to attack Israel, haven't they? Not Israeli Arab territory, not territory outside of Israel's de facto control (at least since the Yom Kippur War, when Israel was the one attacked), and not even the Gaza Strip, conveniently enclosed in a lovely fence that stops Palestinian suicide bombers from leaving and, seemingly, Israeli soldiers from entering—even though they have the keys.
 
Fachy said:
Ok, so why do you want to make unhappiness then build temples to counter them, when you can simply make happiness only occur with state religion temples? I don't think we should "punish" the player because they had foreign religions enter their borders, we should just give them bonus when they build temples matching their own state religion. Makes life simpler
Because it makes sense(for both realism and gameplay reasons) that cities with more than 1 religion should suffer unhappiness if they are not allowed to practice their faiths.


Fachy said:
Remember that when a new religion enters a city, and converts some of its population (who belonged to the old religion already), that creates tension. SO if a new temple is built: new converts are happy, but old (conservatives) are mad because the gov is acknowledging the new religion's presense. So it really ends off balanced
If the StateReligion + negative NonStateReligionHappiness calculation wasn't bugged then you could make Theocracy civic cause 2 unhappy so that temples would only reduce non-state unhappiness partially. But the only way to accomplish this atm would result in it always being possible to have a state religion - even with Religious Freedom (you switch StateReligion to Government civics and NonStateReligionHappiness to Religion civics).
 
Simetrical: This definition isn't approved by the UN and I think it's an "informal" definition (one you brought from a dictionary or something). Anyway I think it's also fair to say that terrorism isn't always wrong, depends on who are you terrorizing, bad guys or good guys (which we will always disagree upon) :D. I still don't see why can't a country be a terrorist country, when a group of people can... the act is the same, no?

Turner I wasn't bashing and I think everything I said here was objective to a big extent, anyway >>

Cyber, I still don't understand how do you counter my argument that it remains indifferent: new converts happy to practise their faith, while old converts are mad because of this
 
Fachy said:
Cyber, I still don't understand how do you counter my argument that it remains indifferent: new converts happy to practise their faith, while old converts are mad because of this
Even if I agreed that religions can't tolerate the presence of other religions at all (which I don't - except from under strict Theocracies), your proposed way doesn't add any consequences of having multiple religions in the same cities at all - mine does ... to minor a degree anyway.

EDIT: If you are suggesting to keep the nonstate unhappiness with no way to counter that then that would be greatly unbalancing imho. Missionaries would become weapons of unhappiness to launch on your opponents to which the only defence would be to have permanently closed borders - something the AI would have clue about
 
Koheleth said:
Btw, Reinach might have said it in 1919, but modern genetic evidence indicates in insignificant contribution of Khazar DNA.

What genetic evidence? I wasn't aware that there was a 'Jew' gene, and genetics cannot yet produce a template of what combinations of genes a specific racial group will have. Even there was that level of sophistication, I doubt very much that there is an adequate DNA database on the Khazar people that would allow comparison.

Koheleth said:
On the other hand, you are correct that Judaism was a missionary faith untl the rise of Christianity & Islam made it dangerous for Jews to do so.

Actually, Jewish conversion efforts continued right up until at least the 15th century (when Ferdinand the Catholic - or Ferdinand II - expelled the Jews from Aragon.

The end of prostelyization by Jews was a historical accident, not something endemic to Judaism (as Judaism's aversion to pigs, clams, and crabs is).

On the other hand, Judaism has NO monastic tradition, so renaming "monastaries" as "yeshivot" makes sense.

So would you then agree that Judaism in Civ4 should have access to Missionaries (however they are named)?
 
What are you talking about? I'm providing justification for the mod creator putting missionaries back in the game for the Judaism religion! I'm not breaking any rules, and it's relevent to the mod.
 
Duh I wasn't discussing your actions I was discussing MY actions!!

Cyber: That's the point.. I don't want everyone to have closed borders inf ear of missionaries, that would suck

Abba did you succeed in adding multiple Rabbi's to the first one discovering monothiesm?
 
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