ABCs vs. 123s

[futurehermit]

One dilemma I struggle with is whether to tech to alpha or math

In warlords I generally sided with alpha because that meant early lit and GL

Now lit has been pushed back and is available through aesthetics. Plus the AI techs a lot slower so good early trading opportunities are not readily available.


On top of that I've been thinking lately that horizontal + vertical expansion is the key to victory (not in all cases, but i think in most cases it is a winning strategy).

Vertical expansion early is primarily driven by the culture slider (SE) or HR (CE). Let's say we are running CE and use HR. That means we need monarchy (myst-med/poly-priest). Going for alpha can allow you to trade for the monarchy prereqs, which is faster, but at the expense of WFYABTA for cheap techs. Math has the added advantage of coming with a nice vertical expansion wonder--the Hanging Gardens--which gives +1 pop and +1 health in each city (with HR the only barrier to vertical expansion is health). Math also unlocks calendar which, if they are available, can net you important health and happiness resources to further aid your vertical expansion efforts.

Horizontal expansion early is primarily driven by military techs such as bronzeworking and iron working. But eventually you need contstruction for catapults. Another nod in favour of math. Currency pays the bills, but can be teched now either through alpha or math so they are even there. CoL is also very helpful for expansion but isn't directly related to either alpha or math. It can be teched through the same line as monarchy though which is some good synergy.

So math gives you: access to currency, construction, calendar (which also has a great wonder!), as well as civil service (good for CE). it also comes with a good wonder (that is quite cheap frankly).

Alpha gives you: the ability to trade techs, build spies, unlocks currency. But since the AI techs slower now and the GL comes through aesthetics I'm thinking there is much less reason to rush to alphabet.

I think I'm going to start teching up through math instead.

Uberfish also gave me the idea of beelining biology asap once expansion is over and peaceful relations exist. This means pushing your cities to size 20 much sooner (vertical expansion).

Thoughts?

 

[DaveMcW]

I favor vertical expansion through horizontal expansion: capture all the happiness resources!

 

[frob2900]

I think I'm going to start teching up through math instead.

Uberfish also gave me the idea of beelining biology asap once expansion is over and peaceful relations exist. This means pushing your cities to size 20 much sooner (vertical expansion).

Thoughts?

IMHO math is definitely the better route now. I often went the math->currency->CoL route even in Warlords but especially now after the Aesthetics tech tree change I'd say Math ftw.

Horizontal expansion is more powerful in the early/pre-renaissance game, since whipping and drafting is more effective with more cities. Later on, when all the multiplier buildings are available/built, vertical expansion becomes dominant. I think the Biology beeline post-expansion is a very good idea.

 

[Percy]

I obviously haven't put as much thought in this than the top players you all are, but i do tech through Maths too. I often find that i am more or less in the lead tech-wise, or that i'm not friendly enough with other civs to trade a lot anyway. Maths gives the Gardens, true, but the deciding factor is often the +50% to chopping. I think that the Maths package is clearly superior.
Oh, and it's cheaper too ^^

 

[oyzar]

just trade alpha for math. At most higher levels this should be easily doable.

 

[ds61514]

just trade alpha for math. At most higher levels this should be easily doable.

Hanging Gardens/Calendar/Music is worth more than the ability to make spies. BtS AIs are INCREDIBLY stingy so I'd rather self research things now.

 

[Phrederick]

just trade alpha for math. At most higher levels this should be easily doable.

If they're willing to trade. I've also found that in BTS the AIs often won't trade anything worthwhile.

 

[BARBEERIAN]

Now that Calendar doesn't obsolete monuments I'd say math is by far the better choice unless:

A) If you built the GW and infiltrated a civ with the GSpy (and they have some techs worth stealing).
B) If you're on the classical literature quest and want to push for the GL.

 

[Jay]

I think whether or not you get the great wall (if that is your strategy) changes things, i wanna go for alpha asap after the great spy so i can start stealing some techs from the victim of GSpy

 

[jihe]

I love alphabet......
My favourite BtS moment so far is chopping for great wall, getting a great spy and stole math+construction+metal casting from none other than toku, hahahaha

 

[frob2900]

I love alphabet......
My favourite BtS moment so far is chopping for great wall, getting a great spy and stole math+construction+metal casting from none other than toku, hahahaha

lol@stealing Tokugawa's tech

Serves him right

 

[uberfish]

Rushing alphabet was only a good idea because it was an easy 2-for-1 for maths and IW and was a prereq for literature. Neither of these are true anymore. I prefer to research other techs and trade for the AI's alphabet in BTS unless I am spying.

 

[futurehermit]

Rushing alphabet was only a good idea because it was an easy 2-for-1 for maths and IW and was a prereq for literature. Neither of these are true anymore. I prefer to research other techs and trade for the AI's alphabet in BTS unless I am spying.

right, exactly. thks uber, nice to hear my own thoughts echoed back at me by a better player

 

[FrancisMarion]

Hmmm, I'll have to try Math out. I've noticed Alpha not being as good as it used to be.

Another thing to consider is that both the Pyramids and the Hanging Gardens produce GE points, and both are double production with stone so naturally work together and with SE, and with a Philosophical leader it might be possible to pop a GE to get the Great Library. Naturally, metal casting + forge and engineer specialist would help.

Maybe the old Oracle + Metal Casting GE gambit only you use the first GE to pop the pyramids then build the Hanging gardens in the same city, and then pop the GL in another city with the 2nd GE.

Well way too complicated for me too pull off. I'll probably just build the Pyramids and Gardens in the same city and just hope for a GE by the time I get to Lit.

 

[AlessioCerci]

ignore both. Go priesthood, monarchy/CoL.

 

[cabert]

In warlords, I was one (maybe the only one) advocating going to CoL through currency.
Now, with the espionnage points from the courthouses, I'm beginning to think it may be better to go straight to CoL.

If alphabet isn't THE priority anymore (I disagree, though. I found having a defensive spy in my major cities to be worth alphabet), maybe maths still isn't the way to go.

Current game is an emperor level, standard size, normal speed, medium and small map, playing ethiopia. It's my first (except shadow of the current ALC) BtS game, so clearly learning isn't done yet.
However, I found that
- REXing is easy! I have settled more cities than the AIs , making me score leader without any war. (organized helps obviously)
- alpha early helped my diplomacy a lot
- trading is still doable, although the AIs do tech a lot slower
- I had to self research maths/currency/CoL because the AIs I have met (my exploration is lame) didn't have them yet.
- the pyramids are easy to get (provided you have stone, I guess). I slow built them, no chopping and only a few "happy whipping giving overflow" moves gave me the big pointy thing in the early ADs.
- the GL is easy to get too, even without marble. I slow built them in my "total forest" capital without chopping or much whipping (only whipped once for a forge in the middle of the build) in the not so early ADs.
- the golden wonder allowing all the religious civics (can't remember the name, sorry) is harder to get than the pyramids, although it doesn't seem very useful to me (I had lightbulbed philo anyway, what else than pacifism would I want to run ). Admitted, I didn't push too hard for it. I mostly wanted the gold from missing it.
- the AIs defend better than in warlords (then again, my neighbours are ragnar and wang kong, Ragnar helps me vs protective wang kong, and I'm still struggling to get Seoul)
- the AIs love their spies. they just feed them espionnage points as if there was no tomorrow (which may very well be true for wang kong )

 

[JujuLautre]

In warlords, I was one (maybe the only one) advocating going to CoL through currency.

Count me in, you're not the only one

 

[budweiser]

In my first few games I got alphabet first then noticed that there wasnt much for trades available. Then one time as Elizabeth I got math and started a great sequence of OR, forge, math/stone chop on the hanging gardens during a GA. I built that thing in about 2-3 turns and it started me off on a massive wonder binge.

But alpha does let you build research and I have used that to get a key tech a few turns earlier as well.

I'm a metal casting fan these days and I would get that first right after HR and before math or alpha.

 

[FrancisMarion]

Yeah I'm definitely coming over to the Math over Alpha side. I played my first game on Emperor pulled Rome as Random and went Math -> currency (to get forum ASAP), popped Alpha with my first GS traded currency for CoL, and still managed to get the GL first by using a GE generated in my capital (which had Pyramids and Hanging Gardens).

In short, worked like a charm

 

[madscientist]

I still make alphabet a priority over math for several reasons
1) Math still seams to be quickly researched by the AI and I can get it through a trade.
2) Spies. Being the first to place spies in your own cities avoids alot of potential mischief.
3) Alphabet allows you to find out which AIs have which techs to trade or at least how behind they are, another more suttle form of espionage. The down side is AIs can demand a free tech, I seam to run across this more and more, with the -1 penalty for refusing.

I think getting spies as early as possible is more valuable than math. The exception is if I am industrious and/or have access to stone, then I think it's better for the GE points from the hanging gardens.