Abortions, Executions and Hamburgers: A Brief Survey

[Brighteye]

Wasn't he laughing more about using incompetence as an excuse for the Chinese famine but not for Allied casualties, when, presumably, he can think of plenty of examples of military incompetence in the war?

 

[Traitorfish]

Erm... Maybe? I may have misinterpreted.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Outlawing abortion wouldn't stop women seeking more dangerous alternatives, which would not only kill the fetus but also them as well, if they went wrong. Abortion should be legal, making it illegal benefits no one. If someone does not want to have an abortion they won't, but stopping someone from even having the option to abort doesn't seem that rational when faced with the alternative.

What if the same would happen to infants? What if legalizing killing infants would "Help save woman's lives that would kill infants anyway." No, I'll pass. If they want to commit an illegal activity, they have to suffer the natural and legal consequences. And besides, it is irrelevant if they survive or not, if they survive they are being executed for murder, and if they die then God has decided to demand justice where the law cannot in that case.

Note that I do not wish this on anyone, but justice must be served one way or another. The proper punishment for murder is death. This applies to all murder, even of the unborn.

Actually, Hitler killed far, far more people. 10-11 million is simply those that died as part of a deliberate campaign of extermination. The total number of Allied causalities in the European theatres is much higher.

While I would count the deaths of Allied soldiers in the war to be awful, I would not consider them to be murder on the mere grounds that they were immoral invasions. Yes the invasions were horrible, but it was still within the laws of war to invade another country. And while I strongly disagree with Hitler's actions (Of invading other countries, saying that about the Holocaust would be such a massive understatement I would not even say it), the allies in WWI were extremely unfair to Germany, and so his actions in that regard being out of desperation is debatable. Either way, war, however unjustifiable, is not murder, particularly since the other guy is carrying a machine gun and trying to kill you.

The deaths in concentration camps on the other hand were gruesome murder. I would not like to count the deaths in war in this, because they are irrelevant to this specific debate.

The extent to which the Ukranian and Chinese famines can be considered equivalent to the Holocaust is greatly debated. The latter, at least, seems to have been largely a result of incompetence magnified by the scale of the nation involved.

I have often heard this argument for China and do consider it a valid one, but that only furthers my point. But still, it is not debatable that SOME of the deaths attributed to Mao were actually his fault.

I'm fairly certain the Ukranian one was on purpose though.

Only if one considers as foetus to be a person, which is the crux of the issue.

Which I do.

China forces abortions.

Do they? Perhaps, but I don't know. I know North Korea does.

But China isn't America! It interferes with black and white "USA #1!" arguments.

What the heck does this even mean? I'm confused.

 

[Arakhor]

You don't know about China's much-heralded "one child policy", used to combat over-population in China? You really should sit down with an encyclopaedia (or hell, even Wikipedia) and actually learn something about the outside world. It would do you a power of good.

While we're on the subject though, you do not get to go around demanding God's justice on anyone. You're not the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury or, hell, even ordained as a lowly vicar or priest, and this is the 21st Century. Stick your theological threats of eternal damnation in the hell that spawned them and engage us in a morally reprehensible manner.

 

[GhostWriter16]

You don't know about China's much-heralded "one child policy", used to combat over-population in China? You really should sit down with an encyclopaedia (or hell, even Wikipedia) and actually learn something about the outside world. It would do you a power of good.

I am well aware of the policy, though I was under the impression that they taxed people more highly to enforce it rather than actually forcing an abortion. At least, that's the law there, I'm quite sure they don't follow it.

While we're on the subject though, you do not get to go around demanding God's justice on anyone. You're not the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury or, hell, even ordained as a lowly vicar or priest, and this is the 21st Century. Stick your theological threats of eternal damnation in the hell that spawned them and engage us in a morally reprehensible manner.

I said nothing about "Demanding God's justice." I am not God. And God himself controls life and death. My point was, since I support capital punishment for murder, and I see abortion as murder, the fact that women will die from illegal abortions I find to be a non-issue because justice is naturally being served. Again, I don't wish it on anyone, but its the way things are. And God is very much able to take and give life. And he is ultimately in control of all of life. So according to my theological beliefs, it makes sense. And I wasn't "Demanding God's justice," as you say.

 

[Ekolite]

As far as I know, in China your first child receives free education, nursery, healthcare and so on, but if you then have another child you have to pay for all the first child's freebies and the second one doesn't get any so you have to pay for them as well. This would often places famillies in crippling debt, and so I'm sure many would consider abortion. You could say that the institution puts people in a position where they feel they need to have an abortion, but I don't think people are actually forced to.

Similarly, the one child policy also causes female infanticide, as well as abortion because many famillies want their only child to be a boy. I believe it is illegal to have an abortion based on the gender of the foetus in China, but this doesn't stop them seeking out more dangerous illegal alternatives.

 

[Karalysia]

It should be noted that the One Child Policy does not apply to those in the Western provinces like Tibet and Xinjiang.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

So that's it? That's your argument?

No, that was not my argument for what you act it is. What it is is the argument against: "Then it really doesn't matter, as they were nothing.". Which you so cleverly constructed as a portrayal of the pro-choice position. And it's bull so I told you the position of pro-choice. This wasn't about support for that position, nor was it the subject. The subject again, was "Then it really doesn't matter, as they were nothing." as a representation of a pro-choice position.

So instead of ranting and wanting to shake people around because you decide to divert the attention away from your ridiculous assessment "Then it really doesn't matter, as they were nothing." Maybe you should try reading and understanding. Would you say that if you state "Then it really doesn't matter, as they were nothing." and I write a post explaining that pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion and that sort of reasoning does not take place, it's not a cop-out but actually addressing the issue?

I didn't say abortions didn't matter.

"Then it really doesn't matter"

In context: "Well, unless we're killing non-persons. Then it really doesn't matter, as they were nothing."

You didn't?

I said that, as far as pro-choicers are concerned, the unborn don't matter.

This is arsegravy of the worst kind. And it shows you know perfectly well what I was talking about. All you do here is say: "Yes it is!"

So dear Bei, when I say: "It's almost always a difficult decision, but it should still be a decision." I am indeed not making an argument for why the decision should be allowed (well spotted by the way) I am telling you that the position you try to shove in my shoes, namely "Then it really doesn't matter, as they were nothing." is false, wrong, bottywater, a characterisation on your part to make it easy for you to argue against it, while the actual position is "It's almost always a difficult decision, but it should still be a decision.". If I believed a foetus meant nothing, it wouldn't be a difficult decision would it? Abortion would not be unlike removing a tumor. Get it out! Saying a foetus is not a person is not the same as saying it doesn't matter. My 3 cats aren't persons, and they matter.

Am I being clear?

 

[Ekolite]

It should be noted that the One Child Policy does not apply to those in the Western provinces like Tibet and Xinjiang.

Or in many rural areas where famillies need more then one child to work on their farms. However for a large proportion of a particularly large country, the policy does apply.