About a Mac version: Some numbers from (yes) Steam
- Thread starter EmpireOfCats
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bjbrains
Man of U-235
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2007
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Civ_king, your level of denial is approaching ludicrous levels. You're now trying to argue that overpaying for inferior hardware is fine because you don't need good hardware to play games? The 5770 will be out of date (for decent res/settings) in 1-2 years. You can't fight out of pure specifications and benchmarks. Macs are ludicrously overpriced compared to building your own computer *and* prebuilt computers from other manufacturers. You're essentially paying 500$+ dollars to run OSX.
I agree with you on that.
IMO anyone at least minimally comfortable with the innards of a desktop computer (i.e. you aren't afraid, like I used to be, the inside is somehow going to kill you) is better off building the computer themselves. The first time I put a computer together I found it a lot easier than I had originally thought it would be. It was pretty fun too, in a geeky sort of way.
From what I can tel, I lump Macs in with other prebuilt computers because of the fact you end up paying for stuff you don't want or miss out on things you do want. Sure, you can customize some components on computers from any of the major competing system builders now, but how often do you get a choice on things like the brand of RAM or HDD, or the size of the case, or the size (and hence noise signature) of the fans or the number of USB ports?... and I haven't even mentioned motherboard quality yet.
For reasons I don't understand, Apple don't want me to have the option of installing one of their operating systems on my computer and unfortunately a Mac with similar components and similar moddability would cost a huge deal more.
I apologise if the way I approach this conversation is almost religious - it's just an opinion formed from the experience I've had and the sorts of performance requirements and budgets I use when considering computers. I think the point I'm really trying to make is that while I appreciate there are a large number of users for whom a Mac purchase makes sense, the design decisions and prices set by Apple simply exclude me personally from that group. Owning a computer is already a luxury, and in a sense it's as if owning a Mac is an even greater luxury (that's the only compliment you're going to get from me today, Apple). I often get the impression that the advice given by those who favour Mac is intended to be general and so the advice is to me. I mean, things like gaming (i.e. games that require a graphics card
) and building computers obviously aren't for everyone, so if they were things that didn't concern me then obviously it'd be a waste of time for me to focus on them in arguments about what computer I should buy.
Macs vs. PCs is a question of what the user wants. For me, the affordability and performance (for games) of a custom-built desktop PC simply can't be matched by any Mac option that is available to me.
And sorry for technically being off-topic... I can't help myself - I'm learning a lot about Apple/Macs here - as a person in a different market to the USA's, I don't exactly get a lot of exposure to Mac "culture".
And by the way, for me at least, Windows has always "just worked".
The reason Apple doesn't want OS X on other machines is because they really want to control their brand. It's a marketing thing, and probably an overblown concern if you ask me.
I like their computers and for me, they're worth the premium--which, I think, is being overstated here.
All these other folks who are getting snippy and obnoxious about it should really get some perspective.
1) If they have the part in stock they immediately repair it, Mac Pros always get bumped to the front of the line in repair, I was at the Apple Store and a couple minutes later a guy brought in his Mac Pro, and he had it fixed in less than 10 minutes
2) And the Mac versions are made for OpenGL and OpenCL!
3) at 1080p AA is basically irrelevant as there is enough pixels that it smooths out enough
4) 60 FPS is barely adequate?
5) OpenGL 3.3 which is probably coming in 10.6.5 is as good as DX 11
6) Or you can use Crossover Games and run those games on your Mac!
Sorry, but AA makes a huge difference at all resolutions. The amount of jaggies you still get without it are still very noticable.
60 FPS is fine, but a single 5770 isnt going to get 60 FPS at 1080p with 4x AA in most current games:
http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-5770-review-test/14
DX11 is the only way to get Tessellation, Direct Compute and its other benefits working as far as I know. Porting games over from DX to OpenGL is a waste compated to being able to run them in DX.
DX is very important for games.
EmpireOfCats
Death to Giant Robots
This PC vs Mac fighting is all very nice, but can we get back to the subject? Hasn't anybody at Gamescom had the presence of mind to ask 2K about the Mac version? Look, it's about a month till release and they claim they still can't give us more information? This is getting silly. Either they are working on it or they are not, and I need to know.
And let me take this moment to point out that it has now become industry standard that you only pay for one version of the game, and get the other free (thank you Valve, thank you, Blizzard). A lot of people are not going to take it well if Firaxis comes out and says, yes, there will be a Mac port, but you are going to have to fork over anther $50 for it if you already have the PC version. Those days are over, guys.
And let me take this moment to point out that it has now become industry standard that you only pay for one version of the game, and get the other free (thank you Valve, thank you, Blizzard). A lot of people are not going to take it well if Firaxis comes out and says, yes, there will be a Mac port, but you are going to have to fork over anther $50 for it if you already have the PC version. Those days are over, guys.
Crustacean Soup
Chieftain
Will they take it better if there just isn't an OS X port at all?
Then Mac users are likely to port it but might pirate it out of spite
OpenGL can now do tessellation, however Apple needs to put it on the OS
EmpireOfCats
Death to Giant Robots
I really, really doubt that 2K will want to miss out on the revenue. However, then we would at least know where we stand, and we could concentrate and figuring out how to run it with VirtualBox. This sort of bad communication is something you expect from Valve, not Firaxis.
EdCase
Defender of the Faithless
Industry standard is a little strong maybe ?
Blizzard who have been doing it since Warcraft II and some older games on Steam.
The games EA released ran through Cider didn't they ?
I understand your desire, you obviously prefer OSX, however the games market for non-console titles is strongest outside of the USA...where ironically the Mac market penetration is weakest.
Simple fact is serious (non-console)gamers, by serious I'm talking money slapped down for multiple games, expansions and DLC as well as high end hardware, tend to run Windows in numbers that dwarf the the potential Mac market and all but the largest developers/producers code for (and will continue to do so I suspect) for the largest market share.
After all who really buys a Mac for the (primary)purpose of gaming ?
True enough. I think, though, that you might have to rework the "serious gamer" definition. That's certainly the way I felt when I was into PC gaming, but that was, frankly, a long time ago. The nature of the games industry has changed dramatically. Consoles and phones both make more money off games than PC or Mac games. Frankly, gaming on computers is a bit pase, unfortunately for those of us who like games that don't do well anywhere but on a computer (like Civ).
In fact, the whole Mac vs. PC debate is feeling particularly tired because the computer as a platform is fading. A huge share of our computing tasks are migrating onto other devices.
If Firaxis was smart, they'd be developing Civ Rev 2 for the iPad and Android tablets. (And let's hope when they do, they make it a little more robust.)
EdCase
Defender of the Faithless
In general I agree with you though you'll find it is predominately Western Europe and the USA where this is the case.
The fastest growing market segment is the Asia/Pacific region, where for all the obvious reasons Apple's penetration is so small that it may as well not exist in the PC sector.
The PC overall is still the largest segment in gaming worldwide (clarification..largest using discrete graphic solution i.e. video cards).
Though the fact that the Tegra 2 is capable of handling the Unreal 3 engine makes me hope my Notion Ink Adam will have some real interesting stuff, besides its uses for my work and the Pixel Qi to replace my kindle.
EmpireOfCats
Death to Giant Robots
Nobody who is sane, that is for sure. No contest.
However, there are a bunch of us out here who have been playing Civ since the first version, and now have the money to buy a game like this, but would like it to run on their normal, everyday, serious-work-stuff computer. Which happens to be more and more a laptop anyway. This is a big market, PC or Mac. Firaxis realizes this, which is why Civ V is going to run on "normal" laptop graphic chips.
And since a lot -- or at least a lot more -- of those serious-work-stuff computers are now Macs, it would make sense for Firaxis to offer a Mac version. This is not rocket science if you set up the tools right. However, and this seems to be the problem, they obviously didn't. So they're in trouble, and it's increasingly looking like we Mac users are going to get ignored like it was still 1992 or something.
The bottom line is that Firaxis just isn't that big a studio. They obviously have chosen a strategy whereby they develop for the PC and then earn the extra income from selling the rights to port a Mac version. You and I would obviously prefer that they chose a different approach, ala Blizzard. But they haven't and I assume this model will hold for all of Civ 5's expansions.
Maybe by the time we're anticipating Civ 6 they'll have moved to a model like the one they used for Civ Rev--graphic scalability for maximum cross-platform penetration.
Cider is fine, the point is we want to run it on OS X not Windows
I doubt many buy for gaming
gaming on PCs is not passé, it is hard to make good turn based strategies without a keyboard or mouse
I think the second generation iPad might pack some more power
Apple just recently opened it's third and fourth Apple stores in Mainland China, it sold out of everything within hours, and this will continue happening as Chinese become more affluent
I'm sure the game will play acceptable with a 320M and good with a 330M and then there are the lucky people with 480M SLIs...
Well, maybe "passé" is too strong a word. (And shame on me for not using the easy Mac shortcut to put that accent on the e) But they're certainly declining in importance for the industry.
Last year, they comprised less than 1 billion of the 11 billion in combined PC and console software sales.
http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_100114.html
Also, the mobile gaming market is set to eclipse PC games:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2005/jul/26/newmedia.games
The thing is that the current iPad already has enough power for a lot of people--not just for games, but for most of their computing needs. We "serious gamers" are no longer the driving force in a niche industry. We're a niche in a global industry worth billions, and turn-based strategy games are a tiny niche within that niche. The old argument that there are some games you need a mouse and keyboard for just isn't going to hold water.
So, no, I think I was right the first time. We are passé.
EmpireOfCats
Death to Giant Robots
And now for a lighter moment, the real reason to buy a Mac:
http://www.postsecret.com/2010/08/sunday-secrets_21.html
Second postcard from the bottom. I bet Firaxis could draw all those WoW-girls over to Civ V with a Mac version ... I'm happily married, so of course for me it is just for status
.
Seriously, PostSecrets is an awesome blog. Scary, sometimes.
http://www.postsecret.com/2010/08/sunday-secrets_21.html
Second postcard from the bottom. I bet Firaxis could draw all those WoW-girls over to Civ V with a Mac version ... I'm happily married, so of course for me it is just for status
.Seriously, PostSecrets is an awesome blog. Scary, sometimes.
EmpireOfCats
Death to Giant Robots
Continuing our trend spotting: Here is Ars Technica about Macs in business:
Ars remarks that this is even though Apple doesn't really focus on business, which is putting it politely, if you ask me.
More interesting for us here -- dude, you shouldn't be playing Civ on a business or government computer anyway -- they talk about virtualization with the Intel chips. Since there doesn't seem to be a Mac version of Civ V that will be ready on time -- I'm beginning to believe this is a case of "getting caught with your pants down" -- one of the first things I'm going to try with the demo is see how it runs with VirtualBox. Civ IV is just short of working with my MacBook Pro i5 (which has nested paging, which makes an enormous difference) , and I'm sure the strategic mode of Civ V will do fine, given the specs. The question is how it will do with the full graphics.
I'll be starting a separate VirtualBox thread once the demo is out; maybe somebody with a more modern Linux system (i5, i7) can test it then, too.
Ars remarks that this is even though Apple doesn't really focus on business, which is putting it politely, if you ask me.
More interesting for us here -- dude, you shouldn't be playing Civ on a business or government computer anyway -- they talk about virtualization with the Intel chips. Since there doesn't seem to be a Mac version of Civ V that will be ready on time -- I'm beginning to believe this is a case of "getting caught with your pants down" -- one of the first things I'm going to try with the demo is see how it runs with VirtualBox. Civ IV is just short of working with my MacBook Pro i5 (which has nested paging, which makes an enormous difference) , and I'm sure the strategic mode of Civ V will do fine, given the specs. The question is how it will do with the full graphics.
I'll be starting a separate VirtualBox thread once the demo is out; maybe somebody with a more modern Linux system (i5, i7) can test it then, too.
The second comment I saw to that article:
I mean, how would someone report on the sales increase of a product that went from 0 sales to 100 sales? "That's an increase of infinity percent."
If we're speaking about trends, you have to accept that trends like that are short lived and ultimately mean very little if you're talking about only small numbers in the first place. More interesting would be the real increases in sales - not misleading percentages.
Sums up my view fairly well, but perhaps minus the word 'laughably'.swalsh76 said:
I mean, how would someone report on the sales increase of a product that went from 0 sales to 100 sales? "That's an increase of infinity percent."
If we're speaking about trends, you have to accept that trends like that are short lived and ultimately mean very little if you're talking about only small numbers in the first place. More interesting would be the real increases in sales - not misleading percentages.
