About China

Man, whoever thinks that zhuge liang belongs in the same league as qin shi huang, tang taizong and such, you guys got poisoned by romance of three kingdom. Romance of three kingdom is a litterature art not a history book.

True zhuge liang is a great economical adviser, but it stops there. Romance of three kingdom may portrait him as a great military leader too. But in reality, he is an incompetent commander. And worst of all, zhuge liang doesn't know the art of people management, he tries to handle everything himself. After he died, there was very little talented people left in shu empire to take charge. Personally if you read the real history of three kingdom, Cao Cao is a far more competent and important figure than zhuge liang. Too bad the author of romance of three kingdom don't like cao cao and portrait him as evil. But the fact remains, the real zhuge liang simply isn't in the same league as cao cao and liu bai( zhuge liang's boss) when it comes to manage an empire.
 
enough dicusssion about china, can we move on with the business of playing civ?
 
weimingshi said:
Man, whoever thinks that zhuge liang belongs in the same league as qin shi huang, tang taizong and such, you guys got poisoned by romance of three kingdom. Romance of three kingdom is a litterature art not a history book.

True zhuge liang is a great economical adviser, but it stops there. Romance of three kingdom may portrait him as a great military leader too. But in reality, he is an incompetent commander. And worst of all, zhuge liang doesn't know the art of people management, he tries to handle everything himself. After he died, there was very little talented people left in shu empire to take charge. Personally if you read the real history of three kingdom, Cao Cao is a far more competent and important figure than zhuge liang. Too bad the author of romance of three kingdom don't like cao cao and portrait him as evil. But the fact remains, the real zhuge liang simply isn't in the same league as cao cao and liu bai( zhuge liang's boss) when it comes to manage an empire.
Click to expand...
I never quite like Liu Bei, but I like Cao Cao a lot :)
 
I think what we have here is just a simple western/eastern misunderstanding due to cultural differences. For example, as I mentioned in another thread, I don't think that including the atomic bomb as a weapon is a good idea. From our perspective, I imagine it'd be quite simliar to add a 'surprise attack a military installation on a small island state' or a 'hijack commuter planes and use them to blow up buildings' attack option.

I think Mao is the same thing. America is relatively isolated from Eastern cultures, so, while I'm sure it's not the creator's intention to be offensive, these things have slipped into the game despite the fact that they're maybe not terribly appropriate for a game venue.

However, this doesn't mean we have to get all upset and have a huge arguement about it. It's good that people from these cultures are giving us their perspective, and I personally have found it enlightening reading everyone's input (I don't know much about Chinese culture myself).

The nice thing about Civ4, and this has been mentioned before, is that you can mod it. Don't like Mao? Got a problem with genbaku? Take them out. Put in something different.

And hopefully, the creators will read these forums and use this information in the next permutation fo the game to make it more accessible to all cultures.
 
wikipedia is reliable, even with controversal topics, if u tried to screw up a page, all changes you made is saved in history, including your IP address, so if moderator found your changes are nonesense, they just ban your ip for any further editing, and revert back to previous unchanged page.

more controversal pages are protected, and not everyone can edit the page, but every one can take place in the discussion to form an unbiased summary.

wiki system is not stupid u know

edit:
as for Zhu Geliang
he is only the prime minister(丞相) of the shu kingdom, and shu kingdom fell first out of three kingdomes, and had the least chinese population.
so he cant be the leader of china in civ4

funny Liu bei gave him a choice of becoming the emperor of shu kingdom when Liu bei is about to pass away. but he refused, so liu bei's moronic son became the emperor of shu kingdom, and its one of the reason that shu kingdom fell so early.
if Zhu geliang did become the emperor of shu, i guess he could be a candidate.
 
Wow, this is a long argument~
But seriously, Mao was a terrible leader, the only thing we can honor him for is prob for pushing the japanese back.
Good military leader, horrible, and brutal peace time leader.

Just think about the red guards idea... children taught to betray and beat up teachers and parents Oo not too smart.

He might deserve to be in the game for his military contribution and the fact that he united china, but In my opinion there are many better leaders for china.

Ps. Alot of Chinese people still praise Mao in China are because of severe propaganda and media control.
eg. huge dam broke, flooding and killing thousands... westerners knows more about this than most chinese people.
 
This is the very first time I hear someone called zhuge liang an "incompetent commander". I wonder if you ever heard of the Battle of Red Cliff (che bi) where he commanded his troops and completely demolished Cao Cao's army, which has an overwhelming five times more soliders and vastly superior vessels. And his millitary champaign against 孟獲 (Meng Wo?) is so successful that even a barbarian leader like 孟獲 would agree to join the Kingdom of Shu. How brilliant was that?

BTW, I think you guys are getting a bit too serious. Do you play this game for fun at all? or to be policically correct? For me (and many others), playing as zhege liang is fun and interesting, and that's why he could be a leader of China in civ4. Yes, that's all it takes.
 
mag827 said:
This is the very first time I hear someone called zhuge liang an "incompetent commander". I wonder if you ever heard of the Battle of Red Cliff (che bi) where he commanded his troops and completely demolished Cao Cao's army, which has an overwhelming five times more soliders and vastly superior vessels. And his millitary champaign against 孟獲 (Meng Wo?) is so successful that even a barbarian leader like 孟獲 would agree to join the Kingdom of Shu. How brilliant was that?

BTW, I think you guys are getting a bit too serious. Do you play this game for fun at all? or to be policically correct? For me (and many others), playing as zhege liang is fun and interesting, and that's why he could be a leader of China in civ4. Yes, that's all it takes.
Click to expand...

You read too much romance of three kingdom. the battle of red cliff was commanded by zhou yui 周瑜of wu empire. In real history, zhuge liang at the time was still not important enough to have any influence on the outcome of the battle, he at the time wasn't even part of the join decision makers. As for Meng wo, he is by all account a barbarian tribe. The odds for Meng wo to win was small at best. winning against Meng wo don't proof much. As for Meng wo joined Shu, you could view it as good diplomatic negociation, besides under the circumstances, Meng wo would be stupid to refuse. In real history, Zhuge liang only took charge of the military after liu bei died. All those spectacular victories described in romance of three kingdom, well it wasn't fought by him, liu bei himself was a good tactician and he had very competent and battle hardened generals commanding the army. before zhuge liang joined liu, he was a farmer, he had no experience of war. Liu bei is a smart man, he's not stupid enough to entrust his generals to someone who has little military experience and expect him to win, this only happens in novels. When liu bei died, most of the high ranking general of shu empire already died before liu. The only competent general still left was wei yan 魏延. Liu bei entrusted wei yan the tough task of defending against the north, and he did an exceptional job, the north never breached wei yan's defense even when there was huge turmoil between shu and wu empire. Too bad Zhuge liang did not trust wei yan because wei yan's strategy was completely different from zhuge liang's and also one of zhuge liang's close advisor hates wei yan for personal reasons and spread false rumor against wei yan, which zhuge liang was stupid enough to believe. Zhuge liang marched 7 times to the north, and he got nothing out of 7 tries, eventually died on the last try. Those 7 wars he waged largely depeleted the already tight resources shu empire had, This was one of the reason shu got defeated so quickly later on. And his distrust against wei yan, resulted in wei yan's death after zhuge liang died, Wei yan was the last of the great generals shu empire had. I wouldn't qualify zhuge liang as a good commander with this kind resume.
 
i think u got liubei and zhuge liang mixed up
Liu bei was a farmer, but with the royal blood of the han emepror(or something like that)
zhuge liang was 27 years old, when liu bei visited him. and entitled as 卧龙（hidden dragon)(u guys all know crouching tiger hidden dragon right:crazyeye: )by the commoner's tonge
as for zhou yu, thats a smart guy, and he got jealous of zhuge liang's ability, and in the end, he said: 既生瑜﹐何生亮, then died
some body help translate lol
 
panzooka said:
i think u got liubei and zhuge liang mixed up
Liu bei was a farmer, but with the royal blood of the han emepror(or something like that)
zhuge liang was 27 years old, when liu bei visited him. and entitled as 卧龙（hidden dragon)(u guys all know crouching tiger hidden dragon right:crazyeye: )by the commoner's tonge
as for zhou yu, thats a smart guy, and he got jealous of zhuge liang's ability, and in the end, he said: 既生瑜﹐何生亮, then died
some body help translate lol
Click to expand...

yes, zhuge liang was a hidden dragon, and where did he hide? In the country side, in a small village on a small hill, don't you think that qualifies him as a farmer?

As for zhou yui, the author of romance of three kingdom made all this up. In the vastly more historically accurate book san guo zhi (三国志)， zhou yui was portrait as a man with open heart, he welcomes anyone that can help wu empire grow, he is the kind of person that would gladly give you his place if he thinks you are better than him. zhou yui would be more than happy to have zhuge liang join wu. zhou yui is not the type of person who would be jealous of someone simply because the other guy is better than him. frankly he has no reason to be jealous of. He was the high commander of wu empire, his abilities and his reputations was well known already. at the time liu bei was considered under his protection, the land liu bei had was technically borrowed from wu. zhuge liang on the other hand was only a newly appointed advisor to liu bei at the time, he don't have any accomplisments under his belt yet. No reason for zhou yui to be jealous. And zhou yui's death has nothing to do with zhuge liang, he died because of his old battle wounds.

Romance of three kingdom is a great literature work. But it is a literature work, the author never claimed it was even remotely historically accurate. Through out his book, his goal is to praise shu empire and incidentally he made north empire the evil guy and wu empire somewhere in the middle. He changed alot of historical facts in his book to accomplish this, and alot of those changes was from black to white or totally non existent. On the other hand, san guo zhi 三国志， was written as a history book, so most stuff in it had historical facts to proof it.

On a side note romance of three kingdom was a very entertaining read, i read it three times. and san guo zhi was a boring book to read in comparison. But unfortunately most people thinks romance of three kingdom has historical credits to it and attempt to use the story to argue about historical facts. This created alot of misunderstanding and confusion between history and fiction.
 
hmm interesting discussion

but please don't compare Hitler with Mao

Mao failed as a domestic leader, many millions starved to death as a result of his failers, he did NOT actively order the deaths of 20 million of his own people

Hitler however did actively order the deaths of over:

6 million Jews
5 million Gypsies, homosexuals, handcapped, other ethnic minorities, communists, anarchists, democrats etc.

He was also directly responsible for the deaths of over 20 million people of the USSR as he did order it's invasion (most of which were civilians and so were murdered in cold blood)

over 6 million Poles (not sure if this number is of deaths caused solely by the Nazis and not also caused by the Soviets)

not to mention the many other deaths suffered by the western nations

so the number for Hitler is more like 40 million and not 6

there is a difference between actively and consciencely ordering the deaths of millions and being partly responable for the starvation of millions through your failed programs and inconpetence
 
Mao just didn't care about the Chinese people. He cared about some grand vision of China as a world power. In his eyes the Chinese people were just disposable units of fuel for the Chinese economic machine.

As for not killing on purpose there were and still are many concentration camps in China. The Lao Gai. Much of the far northwest region is full of them. One estimate said that 10% of the population of that region were or are prisoners.

Mao systematically wiped out anyone who disagreed with him or even anyone who just passivley didn't do what he wanted. As I have said before you should all go and read "Grass Soup" by Zhang Xianliang. That will give you a pretty good idea of the depths of human misery the Chinese people suffered directly because Mao's plan for China mattered more than the pain it caused.

I wish the Chinese people had access to all the information we in the West have. I hope one day you will. You all really deserve so much more than the government you are stuck with.

Anyone from the west should be aware that the Chinese government monitors use of the internet and that people from China may be unable to say what they really feel. Also the rural poor of China do not have wide access to the net so the Chinese posting here are more likely to be from urban areas and therefore have better communist party connections and thus feel more loyal to Mao than your average Chinese may do so.

China can be a land of shadows. Always look closer at what seems to be in front of you. Things are not usually as they at first appear. China is still a very dangerous place for someone who speaks their mind.
 
actually, i think chinese people here were all from overseas.
even university student cant speak english well.

"Anyone from the west should be aware that the Chinese government monitors use of the internet and that people from China may be unable to say what they really feel. Also the rural poor of China do not have wide access to the net so the Chinese posting here are more likely to be from urban areas and therefore have better communist party connections and thus feel more loyal to Mao than your average Chinese may do so."

lol, from ur forum name, i can see u are a chinese too, obviously, u havnt being to china recently
 
weimingshi said:
You read too much romance of three kingdom. the battle of red cliff was commanded by zhou yui 周瑜of wu empire. In real history, zhuge liang at the time was still not important enough to have any influence on the outcome of the battle, he at the time wasn't even part of the join decision makers. As for Meng wo, he is by all account a barbarian tribe. The odds for Meng wo to win was small at best. winning against Meng wo don't proof much. As for Meng wo joined Shu, you could view it as good diplomatic negociation, besides under the circumstances, Meng wo would be stupid to refuse. In real history, Zhuge liang only took charge of the military after liu bei died. All those spectacular victories described in romance of three kingdom, well it wasn't fought by him, liu bei himself was a good tactician and he had very competent and battle hardened generals commanding the army. before zhuge liang joined liu, he was a farmer, he had no experience of war. Liu bei is a smart man, he's not stupid enough to entrust his generals to someone who has little military experience and expect him to win, this only happens in novels. When liu bei died, most of the high ranking general of shu empire already died before liu. The only competent general still left was wei yan 魏延. Liu bei entrusted wei yan the tough task of defending against the north, and he did an exceptional job, the north never breached wei yan's defense even when there was huge turmoil between shu and wu empire. Too bad Zhuge liang did not trust wei yan because wei yan's strategy was completely different from zhuge liang's and also one of zhuge liang's close advisor hates wei yan for personal reasons and spread false rumor against wei yan, which zhuge liang was stupid enough to believe. Zhuge liang marched 7 times to the north, and he got nothing out of 7 tries, eventually died on the last try. Those 7 wars he waged largely depeleted the already tight resources shu empire had, This was one of the reason shu got defeated so quickly later on. And his distrust against wei yan, resulted in wei yan's death after zhuge liang died, Wei yan was the last of the great generals shu empire had. I wouldn't qualify zhuge liang as a good commander with this kind resume.
Click to expand...

That's one view of Zhuge Liang. But come to think of it, with a land and population size that's 1/7 of that of Wei, with a lower productivity, lower resources and one that's not known for a warrior culture, against Wei which had some of the most fierce warriors of China, the best horsemen, armies at least 10 times that of Zhuge Liang, Wei should have taken Shu a long time ago. But Zhuge Liang's expedition always kept the Wei troops out of the initiative and into the defensive. I would say that's a military achievement already. Despite that history showed that Zhuge Liang's campaigns agaisnt the Wei were not successful, in each of the campaigns the loss in material and manpower were always greater for the Wei and for most of the time Zhuge Liang managed to keep his army intact. I would say that if Zhuge Liang didn't embark on those campaigns Shu would have been gobbled up much earlier.

About Romance of the Three Kingdom, I didn't know where you get the impression that I read this book a lot. I never mentioned this book in any of my posts and as far as I can see, you are the only poster that keeps talking about this book in this thread.
 
"As for not killing on purpose there were and still are many concentration camps in China. The Lao Gai. Much of the far northwest region is full of them. One estimate said that 10% of the population of that region were or are prisoners"

hmm interesting can you give me a link?

anywho I'm sure they did have concentration camps, so did the British and Americans

concentration camps are not the same as death camps (not that I think you were saying this just pointing it out)
 
i found the quote
O God, since you made Zhou Yu, why did you also create Zhuge Liang?
(既生瑜﹐何生亮?)
 
In my opinion, Mao is a great man as Ting shi huang and Kang Xi who were the great emperors in Chinese history. Although he made a lot of mistakes during the culture revolution period, he also led the CPC to creat a new China. However, he is the tragedy of political system of China. As everyone know, it was a long history of feudalism from 776BC to 1910AD in China. And what the feudal emperors like is all the people who are governed have only one pate so that Chinese have no democracy spirit in their brain.
Not only am I a Chinese, but also a member of CPC, I am fond of president Mao, and I like my courntry, my motherland.
 
i found the quote
O God, since you made Zhou Yu, why did you also create Zhuge Liang?
(既生瑜﹐何生亮?)

This is just from the noval Romance of Three Kingdom.
And it is figment.

Mao sure was not a great man. Maybe he would be if he was born a thousand years ago. But unfortunetly I can only say he was just a great warlord. Some Chinese ppl still love him because they don't know what Mao has done to them. They don't even have chance to know the truth.

and I saw a man said he would pick kangxi(康熙），I laugh my ass off.
Kangxi is just like Kubla Khan, another barbarian emperor. And he is definitly mediocre. Actually all the emperors in Qing Dynasty are mediocer or worse and they made China from one of the greast power in the world to the weakest. China is another exmaple of how splendent culture ruined by warlike barbarians.

About Sun yet san. He is defined as the father of the nation by both parties in China. He gave up his power for the good of democrocy, but didn;t realize that his successors were all assh0les.
 
Dida said:
enough dicusssion about china, can we move on with the business of playing civ?
Click to expand...

Why don't you do that?! You can also stop reading anything posted on this thread. It is very obviously a thread dedicated to China, inspired by Civ IV. Anybody who is not interested just has to stop visiting a thread whose explicit title is "About China". It appears to be a very informative & educative thread : it would be an intellectual shame to censor it because its ethnocultural dissertations are boring some "kwei lo". :rolleyes:
 
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