Abusive Relationships

Birdjaguar said:
Clearly you don't hate repeating yourself at all; in fact it would appear that you like repeating the same post over and over again

I don't hate it that much! Plus I especially like to do it when people repeat the same thing again and again... the same question gets the same answer, just trying to drive that home! But I like you, you make your point. :goodjob:

Your rant seems to be that people don't act in a rational manner when it is in their best interest to do so, and you are very earnest in calling that "stupid" behavior.

And how is that behavior not stupid? If you jump on a grenade, that's not stupid... if you fly a kite in a storm, that's stupid. So that's not my point exactly, but close. How is not acting rationally when its in your best or any rational interest NOT stupid?

Your own "stupid" ranting against the foilbles of being human make your case eloquently enough that no additional rebuttal is necessary. But this being OT I will say more anyway.

Just because its an emotional reaction doesn't mean it isn't a stupid emotional reaction. Clearly I did not rebut my own argument in my ranting.

Human weakness for irrational acts far outstrips our actions based only on reason. You have only pointed at two that typically have negative consequences. Many of our emotional reactions to life are the basis for grand episodes, great art and moments of triumph. To make note of the fact that people do stupid things for emotional reasons is, well, old news. The "arrogance of reason" that is evident in your post, is both incorrect and, to use your words, "stupid". It is also shows a narrowness of thinking and a lack of understanding of human nature.

The "emotional weakness" which you are so eager to label as "stupid" stems from the same source of all that is good in life.

...well if an action has negative consequences, how is it not a stupid act? Just because what caused that action, emotional weakness or whatever, also can cause actions that has positive, beautiful, great and grand consequences? Er, tell me, is this Old News, Wrong news? because even if its old and we all know it anyways, its still, well, the fact of the matter: People do 'stupid' things for emotional reasons.

How is arrogance of reason causing any problens to the fact of the matter?

The source being stemmed from has nothing to do with anything. People do stupid things, but I'm not saying all people are just plain stupid creatures. I'm saying certain acts, like going back into an abusive relationship, is just plain stupid.
 
...well if an action has negative consequences, how is it not a stupid act? Just because what caused that action, emotional weakness or whatever, also can cause actions that has positive, beautiful, great and grand consequences? Er, tell me, is this Old News, Wrong news? because even if its old and we all know it anyways, its still, well, the fact of the matter: People do 'stupid' things for emotional reasons.

How is arrogance of reason causing any problems to the fact of the matter?

The source being stemmed from has nothing to do with anything. People do stupid things, but I'm not saying all people are just plain stupid creatures. I'm saying certain acts, like going back into an abusive relationship, is just plain stupid.
People do most things for emotional reasons. You seem to think that people should should only act rationally and that by doing so they will avoid bad things. You also seem to link the consequences of the act as to whether or not it was a stupid act or not. Lots of well thought out acts have bad consequences; are they stupid then too? Why shouldn't the decision about whether or not an act is "stupid" be based on the reason for the action and not the consequences? Why we do things is often far clearer than what will come of the decision.

What if a woman leaves an abusive relationship (which you would support as "not stupid") and then because she left, the man finds her and kills her. The very bad consequences would then, by your reasoning, make the decison to leave a very stupid one. One cannot know all the consequences of one's actions and so most of us make hard decisiions with strands of "hope" runnig through them.

The "arrogance of reason" is that many would like to claim that reason is a better tool for making decisions than emotions. Any "reasoned" look upon the world shows this to be false. Reason has a place, a limited one. It is a very powerful tool when used correctly and weak when misapplied.
 
Birdjaguar said:
People do most things for emotional reasons. You seem to think that people should should only act rationally and that by doing so they will avoid bad things. You also seem to link the consequences of the act as to whether or not it was a stupid act or not. Lots of well thought out acts have bad consequences; are they stupid then too? Why shouldn't the decision about whether or not an act is "stupid" be based on the reason for the action and not the consequences? Why we do things is often far clearer than what will come of the decision.

But you can do things for emotional reasons that aren't stupid. Pointless, futile, silly, funny, vain, etc. but if it causes you or another harm, then why cannot the act be called stupid? As for the well-thought acts going wrong, that's life... how the heck is being involved in an abusive relationship well thought out? Thinking the other will change or whatever, are stupid things to think. And as for your why shouldn't, it goes both ways. It's stupid 'cause of the consequences, and equally stupid because of the reasons forr staying/going back into such a relationship. How are the reasons, no matter how they were derived, not stupid?
The why here is indeed, stupid.

And we discussed the why, and usually its unavoidable, but that doesn't make it any less stupid. Jimmy boy grows up in the ghetto and knows no other way of life but to steal and sell drugs to make money - doesn't change the fact that doing these things with the danger/negatives part of them, are stupid things to do.

What if a woman leaves an abusive relationship (which you would support as "not stupid") and then because she left, the man finds her and kills her. The very bad consequences would then, by your reasoning, make the decison to leave a very stupid one. One cannot know all the consequences of one's actions and so most of us make hard decisiions with strands of "hope" runnig through them.
No, shes not stupid for leaving, she had no way of knowing he'd kill her. Knowing all the consequences doens't matter. How is a hard decision full of hope that an abusive relationship will change, not stupid?

The "arrogance of reason" is that many would like to claim that reason is a better tool for making decisions than emotions. Any "reasoned" look upon the world shows this to be false. Reason has a place, a limited one. It is a very powerful tool when used correctly and weak when misapplied.

Remember emotions are felt for certain 'reasons'. Our debate is not necessarily one of 'reason' over 'emotion'. And from an emotional perspective, how is staying/going back to AR, again, not stupid?

...and also, me calling it stupid stems from both reason AND emotion....
 
Take her seriously for what? It's not even her relationship that is the topic... that's the reason she made the topic, not the topic itself. No one is asking you to believe that her relationship was an abusiive unhealthy affair, she is looking discussion on 'abusive relationships', not her relationship.

Edit... well, actually, maybe she is looking to discuss her relationship, but I'm sure that it would be far more enlightening to discuss the broad subject as a whole.

I'd like to know where she's coming from. Otherwise she sounds like just another insecure teenager whining about a breakup.
 
I'd like to know where she's coming from. Otherwise she sounds like just another insecure teenager whining about a breakup.

Even if she was and started a topic on this, the topic is still relevant, but yeah I see what you mean since she did mention that she'd like her specific relationship to be discussed here. (why she stayed with the guy)
 
Good to hear you have found someone loving.

I really don't understand it either its always intrigued me why a women stays with a abusive partner,it just doesnt make any sense, some say they feel trapped and worthless and dont think they can make it on there own.
Others are to scared, others think he will change and this will be the last time.
Seems to be lots of reasons why they do stay but I just don't get it.
 
Abusive relationships appear "silly and stupid" to those who are not in them, just like belief in god appears stupid to an atheist. Rationality is a luxury provided by distance. "Needy" people do suffer from abusive spouses, but mostly it is the controlling partner who breaks down the other and uses a variety of techniques to dominate and control. It usually takes a third party help an abused person "get out" and see other options.
What about people who don't get have a third-party to help? Unlike in the movies, in real life chances are you're not gonna get "rescued". A little human kindness goes a long way but ultimately the responsibility of getting out and building yourself back up is up to you.

Like Eleanor Roosevelt says "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.". If you feel like crap about yourself and/or you latch up with abusers chances are you have self-esteem issues. You can't expect a new man (or woman) to come save you (though, like I said, a little kindness can go a long way), you have to save yourself.

Human weakness for irrational acts far outstrips our actions based only on reason.
All acts are based on reason. If someone cheats or is violent or whatever they obviously see (mistakenly or not) the pleasure of doing the act overrides the pain of not doing it.

People aren't abusive because of something that happened to them in childhood or because of "anger issues" or because they're crazy, they are abusive because they think they can get away with it and gain some advantage from it. This is the basis for any behavior. Calling any behavior "irrational" is simply the refusal to look deeper. Not to say any human has the mental capacity to ever truly predict the behavior of another with 100% success but there is always a reason (one that seems reasonable to the doer) for every human action (and emotion).

I've seen incredibly intelligent girls get dominated and controlled by an abuser.
IQ does not necessarily equate to emotional/social intelligence.

People do most things for emotional reasons.
When you explore your emotions you will realize they serve a rational purpose. The key is to figure out which emotions make sense (being afraid to try to jump from a moving car) and which hold you back (being afraid to talk to a man or woman you are interested in. Further analysis might reveal that even those fears that seem at first glance to be irrational (talking to a new love interest) might make sense given a person's beliefs about the potential hazards of relationships.

It's all about cost-benefit analysis. The only question is whether it's conscious or unconscious. I agree that emotions rule (even intellectual pleasure is an emotion) but if we're curious we can learn how to manipulate our emotions in more intelligent ways (getting a thrill from making a porn with your significant other for example instead of cheating or mastering a martial art instead of picking fights at a bar).

Everything makes sense if you go deep enough. If it didn't curiosity would be a useless emotion (since it would be impossible to figure ourselves out since we don't make sense) but now we know, there are no useless emotions.
 
What about people who don't get have a third-party to help? Unlike in the movies, in real life chances are you're not gonna get "rescued". A little human kindness goes a long way but ultimately the responsibility of getting out and building yourself back up is up to you.
Yes, kindness is very under rated. It is the best tool a person has to to reduce unhappiness.
Narz said:
Like Eleanor Roosevelt says "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.". If you feel like crap about yourself and/or you latch up with abusers chances are you have self-esteem issues. You can't expect a new man (or woman) to come save you (though, like I said, a little kindness can go a long way), you have to save yourself.
Mostly true, but there is a corollary: Not everyone is capable of such self reliance and strength.
Narz said:
All acts are based on reason. If someone cheats or is violent or whatever they obviously see (mistakenly or not) the pleasure of doing the act overrides the pain of not doing it.
Mostly wrong IMNSHO. We may think that we have thought things through, but mostly people do not. We are an impulsive lot and act or react without reflection. Some people are more thoughtful and reason is applied to more decisions. For others the reasonoing process is merely the tool used to confirm/support a previously made impulsive decision. If you are saying that choosing to have an affair (pleasure now over the pain of no pleasure) is somehow a rational decision, then I think we have major disagreements of what constitutes a "reasoned" decision.
Narz said:
People aren't abusive because of something that happened to them in childhood or because of "anger issues" or because they're crazy, they are abusive because they think they can get away with it and gain some advantage from it. This is the basis for any behavior. Calling any behavior "irrational" is simply the refusal to look deeper. Not to say any human has the mental capacity to ever truly predict the behavior of another with 100% success but there is always a reason (one that seems reasonable to the doer) for every human action (and emotion).
Ah the "we are a product of our upbring and environment" explanation for human behavior. I would have to disagree that this is true. I would put genetics as the driving force behind 60-85% of who we are and what we do. For example: in women their genetic coding tells them to seek out "alpha males" for mating/pair bonding; their particular culture or society tells them what an alpha male is. But the underlying force is beyond our control.
Narz said:
When you explore your emotions you will realize they serve a rational purpose. The key is to figure out which emotions make sense (being afraid to try to jump from a moving car) and which hold you back (being afraid to talk to a man or woman you are interested in. Further analysis might reveal that even those fears that seem at first glance to be irrational (talking to a new love interest) might make sense given a person's beliefs about the potential hazards of relationships.

It's all about cost-benefit analysis. The only question is whether it's conscious or unconscious. I agree that emotions rule (even intellectual pleasure is an emotion) but if we're curious we can learn how to manipulate our emotions in more intelligent ways (getting a thrill from making a porn with your significant other for example instead of cheating or mastering a martial art instead of picking fights at a bar).

Everything makes sense if you go deep enough. If it didn't curiosity would be a useless emotion (since it would be impossible to figure ourselves out since we don't make sense) but now we know, there are no useless emotions.
You have expanded on your previous assertion of the triumph of reason and how it is the ultimate tool of understanding:through it we can control not only ourselves, but all things. I just disagree with such a position. Can you explain why you love your girl friend? Why does your favorite music move you to an emotional response? Why is holding your cat on your lap pleasureable? Why should it cause your brain to release endorphines and other chemicals?

Our ability to reason simply creates the illusion of being able to explain everything. It creates a false sense of control that some people cling to. It is an organizing force for world views much like god and religion organize the world for religious people. It is one way to make sense of things for which there is no obvious purpose.
 
Yes, kindness is very under rated. It is the best tool a person has to to reduce unhappiness.
Yup, if everyone got a hug or two a day (real ones from the heart) and had someone to listen to them in as unconditionally accepting a way as the listener could muster, it would certainly be a much less hostile world.

Mostly true, but there is a corollary: Not everyone is capable of such self reliance and strength.
How can you know for sure? I think everyone could be but their conditioned to be emotionally dependent, which ironically is why the got themselves in the abusive relationship mess in the first place.

Note : I'm not trying to claim to be so amazingly strong myself (I've let others walk over me in many ways, especially as a kid, in ways I am highly embarrassed about) just saying that helping someone build themselves up is usually better for them than constantly rescuing them (though obviously if someone is getting severely beated or even just brow-beaten it is the right thing to do to step in.

Mostly wrong IMNSHO. We may think that we have thought things through, but mostly people do not. We are an impulsive lot and act or react without reflection. Some people are more thoughtful and reason is applied to more decisions. For others the reasonoing process is merely the tool used to confirm/support a previously made impulsive decision. If you are saying that choosing to have an affair (pleasure now over the pain of no pleasure) is somehow a rational decision, then I think we have major disagreements of what constitutes a "reasoned" decision.

My point is not that humans are perfectly rational just that they are as rational as they are capable of (which sometimes is objectively completely irrational). People are not necessarily objectively reasonable but they do the best they can based on their beliefs about reality (and unconscious, instincts, conditioning). Our instincts are ancient and often don't fit into this modern world (where you often cannot appropriately vent your anger physically, where gluttony during hard times is no longer a smart choice, etc.).

Ah the "we are a product of our upbring and environment" explanation for human behavior. I would have to disagree that this is true. I would put genetics as the driving force behind 60-85% of who we are and what we do.
I agree that nature is the more important factor. I never stated otherwise.


For example: in women their genetic coding tells them to seek out "alpha males" for mating/pair bonding; their particular culture or society tells them what an alpha male is. But the underlying force is beyond our control.

I disgree that our instinctual forces are beyond conscious control. A woman may be attracted to alpha males but consciously choose to marry and sire (right word?) children with a wimpy beta male out of convenience or for money or she may (like countless millions of people) choose not to reproduce at all. One may not be able to choose one's sexual orientation or even, to a large degree, one's internal personality but one can certainly alter one's behavior (which is the most important thing from other people's perspectives, especially when it comes to violence and abuse obviously).

You have expanded on your previous assertion of the triumph of reason and how it is the ultimate tool of understanding:through it we can control not only ourselves, but all things.
How else can we control anything but by understanding it and harnessing our understanding to best direct it?

I just disagree with such a position.
Ok. I'm sure you have your perceived reasons. ;)

Can you explain why you love your girl friend?
She's sexy (cute face, nice figure, good hip to waist ration) she's intelligent, loyal, low-maintainence (not as much as I'd like but that's females for you), affectionate, sharing similar interests and very importantly she loves me too (physically, emotionally, sexually) :)

Why does your favorite music move you to an emotional response?
I don't know. It's beautiful. It's creative. It spurns the desire to be equally creative/passionate within me, which is an important part of human survival (uncreative types die out quicker during hard times). Also, it probably triggers my brain into thinking I'm around friends and loved ones (think about it, in ancient times the only time you'd hear music is if your friends were playing it for you). Many other reasons I'm sure. Even if my reasons don't tell the whole story there is a whole story. My inability to tell it all doesn't prove that my response to music is arbitrary or irrational.

Why is holding your cat on your lap pleasureable?
Because it makes me feel valued, love, chosen. It is good for my health and the cats' as well. Cats & man have had symbiotic relationships since "civilized" man started building granaries, perhaps before.

Why should it cause your brain to release endorphines and other chemicals?
Nurturing relationships (including with domestic animals who's loyalty is important) is evolutionarily important.

Our ability to reason simply creates the illusion of being able to explain everything.
Our ability to create myths as a substitute for understanding (not dissing myths necessarily, some are very beautiful) creates the illusion of control.

It creates a false sense of control that some people cling to. It is an organizing force for world views much like god and religion organize the world for religious people. It is one way to make sense of things for which there is no obvious purpose.
It's not a false sense of control. If you understand how something works fully & completely, by definition you can control it (control is not necessarily good or bad, it just is). Of course, nature as a whole as well as other humans are far too complicated to be fully understood or controlled and this is good and how it should be. If we could control it all, if there was no mystery life would quick become dull. It is comforting to know that the universe does operate according to laws though, even if we cannot understand them all.
 
:thumbsup: Clearly Narz, we are not so far apart at all. :)
 
Back
Top Bottom