Acid_04: The final frontier
- Thread starter acidsatyr
- Start date
Actually I think we have been stupid.
Everyone scream on Wang as useless vassal, but no one did try to make him useful.
We did have opportunities to make a good use of our vassal.
One option we miss is to make Wang to upgrade units for as.
I wander, is it possible to gift Wang all our useless chariots and make him to upgrade it to cavalry? Upgrades cost nothing to him; even his SSC should be able to do that.
Instead of wasting our crossbowman and other week units we should had gift them to Wang as a stack. He probably will send them out as a stack and as minimum do some damage/reflect some forces from as.
Now we do not have mach of absolute units available left, but this was an opportunity.
I just need to check, will he accept gift of chariots? Usual AI on some stage stops accepting gifts of absolute units.
Point is, yes, we can not exploite his cheap research, but may be there ways to exploite him other ways? If upgrade does not work, can we get all his income with subsidise trading for example? Just show a bit of imagination.
After all this screams I still believe that vassalage Wang was correct tactical decision.
Everyone scream on Wang as useless vassal, but no one did try to make him useful.
We did have opportunities to make a good use of our vassal.
One option we miss is to make Wang to upgrade units for as.
I wander, is it possible to gift Wang all our useless chariots and make him to upgrade it to cavalry? Upgrades cost nothing to him; even his SSC should be able to do that.
Instead of wasting our crossbowman and other week units we should had gift them to Wang as a stack. He probably will send them out as a stack and as minimum do some damage/reflect some forces from as.
Now we do not have mach of absolute units available left, but this was an opportunity.
I just need to check, will he accept gift of chariots? Usual AI on some stage stops accepting gifts of absolute units.
Point is, yes, we can not exploite his cheap research, but may be there ways to exploite him other ways? If upgrade does not work, can we get all his income with subsidise trading for example? Just show a bit of imagination.
After all this screams I still believe that vassalage Wang was correct tactical decision.
acidsatyr
be water my friend...
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2006
- Messages
- 1,166
Lol thats a good idea actually. Never tried it since i never keep vassals but it's something to think about for the future. I'm not sure he would've accept chariots thats the problem.
Ok, short report, as nothing mach happened.
Played 9 turns, as I think disscussion needed.
Turn 0, move a spying cavalry forward and it was stoped by stack of 7 cannons, + 4 in city and other units. Look on this picture and decided we have no chance to take anything.
Still used all our cavalry to kill 4 cannons with 0 looses.
Kill Cavalry with lost of drafted rifle and made peace now for all 510gp.
Hired as many specialists as posible, as I think we should not waster time trying to grow slow befor biology (1-2 cities were an exeption).
I gift Wand riffles(tech), to raise his power and gift him all our caravels and some othe runits. he took them and upgraded them, as he has Astronomy.
Researched assembly line.
Only Alex will trade, but not RR, sligtly short. DHe happy to trade Astronomy+sci method. Decided that RR is only one tech and mach needed, research it for a turn and then he happy to trade.
One of taked cities went to revolt, no matter how many units he have in.
Ex Wand city configured for max culture and currently does not revolted.
Probably 2-3 units will pacify it complittly with addition of some culture.
Wang asked for republic and I give it to him.
Reserach set for SCiu method, subject of discussion.
I thin we need to run to biology now.
Plan wize as I see it currently resuming war would be cyicide, as zulu build alot of cannons. But we now can build collateral damage immune stacks.
Mixture of cannons with machine guns should be immune to collateral. add 1-2 Infantry for better initial resistance and we could hope to have stack which will be able to resist mass cannon attack.
I build 2 cities, was a bit later with second and shaka took area and spread his culture.
Build a city near our capital, I thin it will resonably fast become productive and not a bad idea.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84898/Acid_IV_AD-1620.CivWarlordsSave
Played 9 turns, as I think disscussion needed.
Turn 0, move a spying cavalry forward and it was stoped by stack of 7 cannons, + 4 in city and other units. Look on this picture and decided we have no chance to take anything.
Still used all our cavalry to kill 4 cannons with 0 looses.
Kill Cavalry with lost of drafted rifle and made peace now for all 510gp.
Hired as many specialists as posible, as I think we should not waster time trying to grow slow befor biology (1-2 cities were an exeption).
I gift Wand riffles(tech), to raise his power and gift him all our caravels and some othe runits. he took them and upgraded them, as he has Astronomy.
Researched assembly line.
Only Alex will trade, but not RR, sligtly short. DHe happy to trade Astronomy+sci method. Decided that RR is only one tech and mach needed, research it for a turn and then he happy to trade.
One of taked cities went to revolt, no matter how many units he have in.
Ex Wand city configured for max culture and currently does not revolted.
Probably 2-3 units will pacify it complittly with addition of some culture.
Wang asked for republic and I give it to him.
Reserach set for SCiu method, subject of discussion.
I thin we need to run to biology now.
Plan wize as I see it currently resuming war would be cyicide, as zulu build alot of cannons. But we now can build collateral damage immune stacks.
Mixture of cannons with machine guns should be immune to collateral. add 1-2 Infantry for better initial resistance and we could hope to have stack which will be able to resist mass cannon attack.
I build 2 cities, was a bit later with second and shaka took area and spread his culture.
Build a city near our capital, I thin it will resonably fast become productive and not a bad idea.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84898/Acid_IV_AD-1620.CivWarlordsSave
Machine Guns are not immune to collateral. Certain units are flagged as being immune to collateral from certain unit classes. Catapults, Cannons and Artillery are immune to collateral from Siege Units. They are NOT immune to collateral from Chinese CKN's and I guess not aircraft either although I have not tested that. My point is that Siege is not immune to Collateral - it's certain unit types are immune to collateral from specific unit classes.
I'm not sure if machine gunners are worth getting, they die very easily to cannons and cavalry, I think it's better to just get Infantry as they can take better promotions and can actually counter-attack rather than just die on defense...
I'm not sure if machine gunners are worth getting, they die very easily to cannons and cavalry, I think it's better to just get Infantry as they can take better promotions and can actually counter-attack rather than just die on defense...
I propose to revolt Free Speech+Caste System for at least 5 turns and run 100% artists in Tonsberg while it is starving to control space near Shaka's new city and build cultural defence. Also instead of building culture in Pyongyang, we can start accumulating hammers towards something useful. Also we should consider converting some windmills to railroad/mines.
We've been a little slack with settlers this game haven't we (not aimed at Mutineer, but all of us in general - Alexandria and Fishy gold area should have been settled a very long time ago)
I think we need these techs before we attack again:
Fascism, SciMeth, Fascism, Physics, Fascism, Artillery, Fascism
If we intend to go further into the tech tree to tanks and destroyers (Combustion, Electricity, Industrialism) before attacking though, it's probably worth going bio first which will strengthen our infantry drafting ability too. If we are rushing, go fascism first, and see if Alex will trade. I prefer to get tanks, since the AI at least can't instantly upgrade to tanks.
We should not rely heavily on machine guns. They get badly destroyed by artillery. AI always prioritises artillery->rocketry line heavily so Shaka will probably have that soon.
I like Mutineer's idea of giving Wang our military tech and feeding him old units to upgrade. if the AI's going to cheat let's at least exploit it when it's on our side too.
We've been a little slack with settlers this game haven't we (not aimed at Mutineer, but all of us in general - Alexandria and Fishy gold area should have been settled a very long time ago)
I think we need these techs before we attack again:
Fascism, SciMeth, Fascism, Physics, Fascism, Artillery, Fascism
If we intend to go further into the tech tree to tanks and destroyers (Combustion, Electricity, Industrialism) before attacking though, it's probably worth going bio first which will strengthen our infantry drafting ability too. If we are rushing, go fascism first, and see if Alex will trade. I prefer to get tanks, since the AI at least can't instantly upgrade to tanks.
We should not rely heavily on machine guns. They get badly destroyed by artillery. AI always prioritises artillery->rocketry line heavily so Shaka will probably have that soon.
I like Mutineer's idea of giving Wang our military tech and feeding him old units to upgrade. if the AI's going to cheat let's at least exploit it when it's on our side too.
Strange, I read in changes description that siege units immune to collateral and machine guns are siege units.
Still, we could use first strike promotions on them.
ThERat
Deity
got it..but want to wait for some more clarifications on the techs we are going to persue...will play tomorrow night
Well, I think Uber idea to change to Facism and trade facism for sci method seems a good one. Alex has to mach on his hand, but I hope it is not us.
After trading Facism for sci method I would go stright for Biology.
Half of our ties are farms and many of our cities have low food supluss even with all plain farms around. Biology will really give a jump to our civ.
After trading Facism for sci method I would go stright for Biology.
Half of our ties are farms and many of our cities have low food supluss even with all plain farms around. Biology will really give a jump to our civ.
ThERat
Deity
had a look at the save...agree we should change to facism and try and get sci methods from Alex...then biology
I would also swap the civis as suggested to get more culture and more specialists for the time being
I would also swap the civis as suggested to get more culture and more specialists for the time being
ThERat
Deity
revolt as suggested and go for facism, only Shaka has that
on the 2rd turn, Pyongyang revolts yet again
got some cash (210gold) + stop trading with Shaka from Toku for rifling
sci methods had by almost everyone
on turn 4 we get facism
started Westpoint in Washington and Mt Rushmore in Uppsala
got sci methods from Alex for facism + 190g, daylight robbery
ask Toku for 100gold and he is willing to give it to a good friend
start research on biology
on turn 7 Tonsbergs borders expand again but that doesn't make a difference
however do not revolt yet, as there is nothing much before biology and I leave it to next player to change again
on turn 8 Toku demands facism, that's a tough one, but we want to keep good friends, so i give it to him
on turn 10 our capital finishes a coal plant as well and goes back to mil builds
we do get a Great Merchant, send it towards our capital so we can decide what to do with it
play 11 where we get biology
Uppsala finshes rushmore
we can still build Oxford btw and the FP, which we never did
start drydocks in Heliopolis, we can always cancel that
I stop for next player to MM and change civics, I guess we go back to whipping..or maybe wait for artillery
biology is a monopoly tech at the moment
if we want to go for physics (+ arty), we need astronomy first
we could get it from Alex for bio (but that's wrong IMHO)
looking at the power rating and the fact that someone has alu on offers tells me that tanks are around...maybe we better go for UN victory after all
save
on the 2rd turn, Pyongyang revolts yet again
got some cash (210gold) + stop trading with Shaka from Toku for rifling
sci methods had by almost everyone
on turn 4 we get facism
started Westpoint in Washington and Mt Rushmore in Uppsala
got sci methods from Alex for facism + 190g, daylight robbery
ask Toku for 100gold and he is willing to give it to a good friend
start research on biology
on turn 7 Tonsbergs borders expand again but that doesn't make a difference
however do not revolt yet, as there is nothing much before biology and I leave it to next player to change again
on turn 8 Toku demands facism, that's a tough one, but we want to keep good friends, so i give it to him
on turn 10 our capital finishes a coal plant as well and goes back to mil builds
we do get a Great Merchant, send it towards our capital so we can decide what to do with it
play 11 where we get biology
Uppsala finshes rushmore
we can still build Oxford btw and the FP, which we never did
start drydocks in Heliopolis, we can always cancel that
I stop for next player to MM and change civics, I guess we go back to whipping..or maybe wait for artillery
biology is a monopoly tech at the moment
if we want to go for physics (+ arty), we need astronomy first
we could get it from Alex for bio (but that's wrong IMHO)
looking at the power rating and the fact that someone has alu on offers tells me that tanks are around...maybe we better go for UN victory after all
save
Ok, If we put one turn of research to Combustion, we can trade it for Biology I think. My opinion is to self research astronomy or research Democracy and trade it for Astronomy with Alex.
We migth go into emancipation, as have have many cottagess to grow if we want to and gradial transition to cottage economy is in order at that time.
I told wang to research democracy which he will finish in 4 turns.
Hmm.. It will be his allmost monopoly tech it seems, only Toky has it, may be better to tell him to research something else, so he do not trade it around.
Power graph is that high most lickly not becaus eof tanks, but because of arty.
We migth go into emancipation, as have have many cottagess to grow if we want to and gradial transition to cottage economy is in order at that time.
I told wang to research democracy which he will finish in 4 turns.
Hmm.. It will be his allmost monopoly tech it seems, only Toky has it, may be better to tell him to research something else, so he do not trade it around.
Power graph is that high most lickly not becaus eof tanks, but because of arty.
We want to get more culture in Tonsberg, it is our front line. Suggest hiring Artists in boston to improve the chance of getting a great artist a little (seriously) so we can culture bomb it
wow, we are friendly to both Alex and Toku now. My guess is they are gearing up to fight each other. We would probably win the UN vote, might be best to build another city or two to fill gaps and ensure highest population.
wow, we are friendly to both Alex and Toku now. My guess is they are gearing up to fight each other. We would probably win the UN vote, might be best to build another city or two to fill gaps and ensure highest population.
ThERat
Deity
that's why I gave in to the demand after all, gave us another +1 modifier
acidsatyr
be water my friend...
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2006
- Messages
- 1,166
UN seems more and more likely now, unless something unexpcted happens (alex declares on Shaka), in which case tables turn around.
edit: took a look at the save..
As far as GM goes, I'm in favor of sending him to one of Shaka's far east cities and get some cash to mass upgrade our granadiers and rifles to infantry. We don't get anything by speeding up research by 2 turns if it costs us pile of cash.
It's hard to say if tanks are in game or not, but don't forget that large portion of their power graphs are in fact water units, destroyers, transports and ships.
In case Alex declares on Shaka, I would be ready to declare on Shaka again, we need to keep this possibility in mind.
Both Alex and Toku are locked in red so it could get interesting (i.e. Alex declares on Shaka, Toku declares on Alex, we declare on Shaka), or they could all just whoop our ass.
We need physics for artillery as well as UN so we'll see how thing goes after we get physics.
Heliopolis could get Oxford, it has Wall Street but seems like best candidate.
Wild Egyptian Team consists of:
---------
acidsatyr AKA Seth
Mutineer AKA The Scorpion King
ThERat AKA Imhotep
Blake AKA Duamutef <<<-----NEXT!!!!
Mark AKA Wepwawet
Uberfish AKA Sobek
edit: took a look at the save..
As far as GM goes, I'm in favor of sending him to one of Shaka's far east cities and get some cash to mass upgrade our granadiers and rifles to infantry. We don't get anything by speeding up research by 2 turns if it costs us pile of cash.
It's hard to say if tanks are in game or not, but don't forget that large portion of their power graphs are in fact water units, destroyers, transports and ships.
In case Alex declares on Shaka, I would be ready to declare on Shaka again, we need to keep this possibility in mind.
Both Alex and Toku are locked in red so it could get interesting (i.e. Alex declares on Shaka, Toku declares on Alex, we declare on Shaka), or they could all just whoop our ass.
We need physics for artillery as well as UN so we'll see how thing goes after we get physics.
Heliopolis could get Oxford, it has Wall Street but seems like best candidate.
Wild Egyptian Team consists of:
---------
acidsatyr AKA Seth
Mutineer AKA The Scorpion King
ThERat AKA Imhotep
Blake AKA Duamutef <<<-----NEXT!!!!
Mark AKA Wepwawet
Uberfish AKA Sobek
Got it.
Ok UN does look like our best bet at this point and I can't imagine any of our warmongerizing friends would be likely to head past physics down that branch so we should have some trade options.
In terms of power stuff we might encounter a cavalry->gunship mass upgrade before the end of the game, that can be rough since highly promoted gunships are pretty hard to counter (fighters are usually the best counter).
I actually think the ideal way to win is to get Shaka locked in war with one of our friends and then cruise to UN victory, fighting a defensive war against Shaka if we need to. Shaka gets units so cheaply by this age that fighting just gets more and more expensive.
Ok UN does look like our best bet at this point and I can't imagine any of our warmongerizing friends would be likely to head past physics down that branch so we should have some trade options.
In terms of power stuff we might encounter a cavalry->gunship mass upgrade before the end of the game, that can be rough since highly promoted gunships are pretty hard to counter (fighters are usually the best counter).
I actually think the ideal way to win is to get Shaka locked in war with one of our friends and then cruise to UN victory, fighting a defensive war against Shaka if we need to. Shaka gets units so cheaply by this age that fighting just gets more and more expensive.
To be true I am a bit warried about our luck of military build and horrible defencive position. We right now in complete mercy from Shaka.
On the turn he declare he can using his arty complitly eliminate our 2 border cities stacks.
They are really undefensable. WE need to make some contingency planning.
I would suggest to put in border city collateral damage resistant stack,
Mixture of drill promoted machine guns, few cannons and a few infantry/cavalry.
Pull everything else out of direct attack, in nearest city, as if border city taken his cultural borders will instantly recover.
I think we do need to have 5 turns of full force draft, now we have biology we should be able to recover population quicly and it is mostly health that limit our cities sizes.
It might be a good idea to fire specialists for this 5 turn to stimulate grow befor rehiring specialists.
It could be a good idea to collect our the most absolute units and gift them to wang, may be even with little gift of gp/turn, so he used his cheap maintance to keep them and his cheap upgrades to upgrade them.
We probably should give him infantry tech, but may be not strigth away, as we do not want him to trade it for anything with anyone. It could be nice if in case of war he can field stack of 20 infantry which we sort of could direct.
I am in favor of self researching democracy and trade it for Astronomy and adopting Emacipation after whipping factories. It would prolong collosys effect a bit longer and speed up cottages grow.
Then research physics and Arty, as our military factory better produce up to the state of the art units insted of near absolute cannons.
About UN line, notice that Toky own all Radio/mass media line wanders, exept UN.
I am not sure will he build it or not, but if he will I do not see how we could win, as Shaka will not voite for as and only we and Alex will not be enogth for diplomatic win.
On the turn he declare he can using his arty complitly eliminate our 2 border cities stacks.
They are really undefensable. WE need to make some contingency planning.
I would suggest to put in border city collateral damage resistant stack,
Mixture of drill promoted machine guns, few cannons and a few infantry/cavalry.
Pull everything else out of direct attack, in nearest city, as if border city taken his cultural borders will instantly recover.
I think we do need to have 5 turns of full force draft, now we have biology we should be able to recover population quicly and it is mostly health that limit our cities sizes.
It might be a good idea to fire specialists for this 5 turn to stimulate grow befor rehiring specialists.
It could be a good idea to collect our the most absolute units and gift them to wang, may be even with little gift of gp/turn, so he used his cheap maintance to keep them and his cheap upgrades to upgrade them.
We probably should give him infantry tech, but may be not strigth away, as we do not want him to trade it for anything with anyone. It could be nice if in case of war he can field stack of 20 infantry which we sort of could direct.
I am in favor of self researching democracy and trade it for Astronomy and adopting Emacipation after whipping factories. It would prolong collosys effect a bit longer and speed up cottages grow.
Then research physics and Arty, as our military factory better produce up to the state of the art units insted of near absolute cannons.
About UN line, notice that Toky own all Radio/mass media line wanders, exept UN.
I am not sure will he build it or not, but if he will I do not see how we could win, as Shaka will not voite for as and only we and Alex will not be enogth for diplomatic win.
ON additinal note, it could be a good idea to position some small stack on out theretory near our potential secondary line of defence, in areas we will lose culturally if our border cities fall, to cut of roads and give as time to orgonise the defence. We should expect 30 units staks moving into our theretory, they are beatable, but we would need about 30% bigger stack by number of units.
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