aCK-3 The Cat with the Hat

[IamJohn]

Pre-turn
Alright, if it’s peace we want, it’s money we’re going for. I rearrange some citizen placement for more money/science, change a macemen build for a market, some other miscellaneous stuff.

Turn 1
Really boring...

Turn 2
Just nothing...

Turn 3
-Barb HA attempts to suicide on a pike, but fails and runs away.
-So we have a 60-something chance for a merchant. You know what we get? A great spy. Yeah. I move him towards the front where we can figure out where we want him.
-Our spy in zululand hits 50% discount, we get calendar! The citizens rejoice we anticipated happiness, the workers gripe about the extra work...

Turn 4
-Barb HA attempts to suicide on our pike, this time with better success.
-Kill a random AI spy near Ulundi, our spies mocking them all the way to the gallows.


Turn 5
Universal open borders passes with our vote, our income goes up significantly.

Turn 6
We kill another enemy spy, HC builds Notre Dame for us (well us eventually...)

Turn 7
We hit -50% for a spy in Sury’s territory (we’re essentially out of points in shaka’s, and the only tech he has Sury has). We roll the dice and make a go for Philo and get it!

I consider our options and switch to Pacifism, as we go from a high maintenance civic to a no maintence civic, as well as rolling in the GP points from all our specialists.


Turn 8
We hit 50% on another spy, so make a roll for music (90% odds). The spy is discovered, but we still get music.

-HC is the first to discover lib.

Turn 9
-Sury builds Hagia Sophia, Toku messes around with his civics, nothing threatening.
-We hit 50% on a spy, steal Theo from Sury successfully.

Turn 10
-Nothing really of note.


Turn 11

-We finish forbidden palace! Our finance people breathe a giant sigh of relief. We are actually positive by 5 gold now at 30% science...


Turn 12
-Another courthouse comes in, we’re at +11 gold now.

-We suffer a diplomatic faux pas with the zulu, no one cares.

Turn 13
-Toku demands Drama, it’s outdated enough I figure it’s worth it, even though he’s toku, and the diplo boost probably won’t matter.

-Toku is the only one without music, so I do this:

Turn 14
IBT: Our spy in Sury’s territory is discovered.
-We discover guilds.
-We finish a courthouse in gems city, our finances are good enough that we can go to 40% science at only a -4gpt loss.


Turn 15
-We’re only at -2gpt at 40%.
-Spy in Sury’s land hits 50% discount, we go for Banking and are successful.

-Shaka is attempting to play hard ball culturally, but it shouldn’t do any good unless he doesn’t something unexpected...

Turn 16
-Nothing major.

Turn 17
- Busy IBT:

I stick engineer west, building a wonder could do us some good perhaps.

Turn 18
-Haven’t done this in awhile: We meet Hannibal! He looks to be a fairly minor player however, pretty low in score, he lacks several of our techs, only thing he has on us is optics, but he want’s too much for it to be good for trade.

Turn 19
-New election for religious UN, we vote for HC for the diplo boost, Toku wins.
-We hit up Toku for optics, trade for philosophy which only he and shaka lack.

Turn 20
-Nothing much

Turn 21
-Kill a random spy.

Turn 22
-Finally get a decent random event.

Turn 23
-HC gets a Great Prophet.

Turn 24
-HC uses it to build Church of the Nativity.

Turn 25
-Nothing huge.

Finances:
-We’re at -1 gpt at 40%. We have very little in the bank, so we may want to stop for a few turns to get some cash after we research education.
-We had a spare settler floating around, I used it to build Red dot in the south. It’s making money with the trade it has, but the maintance is 7 commerce per turn.
-HC is becoming a monster in GNP, he may be where we want to settle our great spy.

-We do have a great engineer ready do to build whatever whenever we want.
-We’re six turns away from education.
-I built a caravel, he just started moving east, he’s on auto-move till he hits the unknown.

Thoughts? This was a (very) quiet turn, but we’re looking quite a bit better financially, and once we start getting banks online, and finish building harbors and other financial buildings we’ll be looking even better.

The Save:

 

[pholtz]

Looks like a very good turnset, but I won't be able to take a closer look until tomorrow.

Whosit, you mentioned you wanted to join, would you like the next turn? If I don't hear anything from you in 36 hours or so I'll take it.

 

[Whosit]

Whosit, you mentioned you wanted to join, would you like the next turn? If I don't hear anything from you in 36 hours or so I'll take it.

Sort of. My schedule is a little tight (both in real life and Civ life), so I was thinking more along the lines of "play a set here, play a set there" and see if I can't help you guys out. I could play the next set, where my plan would be to whip the economy into shape (maybe actually whip it, though taking advantage of Caste System might be better) and otherwise try to keep Byzantine out of war. You're making headway financially, but there's still a long way to go.

I'll take a look at the save a little later and add more comments. I'll play the next set, though it might take me a few days to get through it. Spending the Great Spy on Capac may not be a bad idea. I have to admit that you guys are really taking advantage of the Espionage system, so that will be something to consider.

 

[IamJohn]

Sort of. My schedule is a little tight (both in real life and Civ life), so I was thinking more along the lines of "play a set here, play a set there" and see if I can't help you guys out.

Whatever you feel able to do. as long as we're not on a strict 24/36 playing system I'm not getting really overwhelmed. Just play what you can and feel free to give plenty of comments

I could play the next set, where my plan would be to whip the economy into shape (maybe actually whip it, though taking advantage of Caste System might be better) and otherwise try to keep Byzantine out of war. You're making headway financially, but there's still a long way to go.

we are kind of running a spy economy, arn't we? I'd be careful about going too nuts on whipping buildings. Remember we are a specialist based economy, and one that isn't all that all that food rich anyway.

I'll take a look at the save a little later and add more comments. I'll play the next set, though it might take me a few days to get through it. Spending the Great Spy on Capac may not be a bad idea. I have to admit that you guys are really taking advantage of the Espionage system, so that will be something to consider.

it really was bad/good luck with the last great spy (who's rocking it out in Sury's area btw) hopefully we should get a great merchant from Berlin soon.

 

[Whosit]

Ran out of time this morning, will look at the save tonight. Just a heads-up.

Regarding the G. Spy, I wonder if more can be gotten out of it by building S. Yard, or if a Spy Mission is still the best bet.

 

[IamJohn]

I don't have the game open, so I can't be sure, but I don't think we're getting enough spy points out of any one city enough to make it worth it to build Scotland Yard.

 

[The Simple Mind]

Great Spy – I always assumed Scotland Yard was only beneficial when you were using the espionage slider. I’d vote for G Spy to HC though we are unlikely to steal many techs. Will give us the option of revolting cities and removing the cultural defenses when we go to war with HC.

Great Engineer – what wonder do we want? We could use Imhotep to build the Sistine Chapel in Gem City to help with the cultural pressure from HC and Shaka. We would then hopefully claim the 2nd gems back from Shaka in 10 or so turns.

Civics: Mercantilism – It would be good to have a free specialist in every city but it would cost us 17 fold in trade income. I still think we should revolt because:

• we’re in caste system and could select free merchants to more than cover this cost with the balance being scientist or artists for the culturally pressured cities;
• it will stop the foreign trade benefit the other civs are getting from us. We’re the largest civ so I assume HC & Sury are getting more trade from us than we are getting from them; and
• it is Toku’s favourite civic so will get + diplo when he revolts. He does have banking. What is the likelihood he’ll revolt soon? Will he do it once he has completed research of gunpowder?

Some available trades:

Toku – will give either fish or 10 gold for clams
HC – will give banana for either clams or gold. Wine deal can be re-negotiated from 6 gold to 8 gold.
Sury – will give fish for clams. Gem deal can be re-negotiated from 11 gold to 15 gold.
Hannibal – will give 6 gold for cows

Potentially an additional 22 gold that would allow us to up the slider by 10%.

 

[Whosit]

Thoughts for next set

Try to crank up the Specialist Economy.

Settle Blue dot simply to get more trade fodder (furs).

Build Plantations at Constantinople! Why has this not been done? Cancel orders to the Workers farming.
There is a Worker sleeping! This should not happen! Many workers are in recently annexed territory. I will bring most back to the core to handle jobs that should have been done some time ago.

I will probably build a Plantation over the Dye Town near Constantinople. It will get the same amount of Commerce, but we'll also connect another Dye, which we can trade for much needed gold or health resources.

I will also build 2-4 more Workers.

And take down old signs.

Berlin: Reconfigure for faster growth (but keep some hammers) and grow as far as possible. Health is an issue.

Ulundi needs its Corn back. Will stagnate Iron Will. This should give Ulundi enough food to feed 4 or 5 more specialists.

I will basically be focusing on growth, commerce, and specialists, and will try to add to the workforce and settle a needed city or two. Except Thessalonica, I see. That's going to be configured for hammers. I may try configuring one of the new border towns for hammers, too, but that's not as important to me at the moment. Kassite can probably do farms and watermills to get a decent production base.

I'll probably use the Great Spy for a mission against Capac to fund future stealing.

To run this specialist economy, some production will have to be sacrificed. Berlin and Ulundi should end up bring in cash/beakers, but not many hammers. Some infrastructure is still needed there, but it'll have to be built more slowly since the whip cannot be used right now.

I will probably also switch to Mercantilism immediately, since I do not think that Toku has to be in it at the same time. It's just his favorite civic. It's always easy to switch back if that's not the case.

Good eye on the trades, TSM. I'll probably lock in the gold now, but once I connect more resources, I'll go for the health resources.

Since this is a busy part of the week for me, I'll be taking several days to get through the set, though I'll update all of you if I'm able to.

Oh, and please remember to take down signs when you've done what they ask. Use "alt+s." It's kind of bad etiquette to leave them there; also try to avoid sign spamming. Making the map too busy makes it easier to ignore things. For example, at Thessalonica, you could put a sign on the city saying "Configure for Hammers" rather than 12 signs for each plot and the player could reference discussion if they don't remember exactly what goes where.

 

[IamJohn]

Settle Blue dot simply to get more trade fodder (furs).

Is it worth it to do this? We're already/about to be getting most if not all of the AI's surplus, I don't think that we're going to be able to get much for just a single resource. All it is is arctic and 2 or 3 furs, that city is going to fulfull the very definition of iceball...

Many workers are in recently annexed territory. I will bring most back to the core to handle jobs that should have been done some time ago.

That's because the new cities needed the most done until recently.

I will probably also switch to Mercantilism immediately, since I do not think that Toku has to be in it at the same time. It's just his favorite civic. It's always easy to switch back if that's not the case.

Don't switch to something just to make Toku happy, no matter what we do he's going to be unhappy with us.

Since this is a busy part of the week for me, I'll be taking several days to get through the set, though I'll update all of you if I'm able to.

Sounds good.

 

[The Simple Mind]

I will probably also switch to Mercantilism immediately, since I do not think that Toku has to be in it at the same time. It's just his favorite civic.

I'm sure the Toku will have to be in Merc to get the diplo bonus. As I said previously, we should switch anyway to boost our economy and reduce the trade benefit the other civs are getting from us. The fact we'll get +ve diplo points when Toku switches is an added bonus.

 

[Whosit]

@IAmJohn: When I thought about settling for the furs, I was not aware that many of our resources were still unconnected. However, one can never have too many surplus resources.

Regarding Tokugawa, he's actually at Pleased already, so if we get the diplomatic bonus from his favorite Civic, he could easily moved up to Friendly, which would mean that he will not declare war on us. This would be worth it, because that would mean we have one front that we would not have to worry about.

We could probably even get him to declare on Capac, if we wanted to. But not now, of course.

@TSM: You may be right about having to share the Civic. I really don't remember because I suppose the AI in question is almost always in their favorite civic already. I'm surprised Tokugawa hasn't changed if he has Banking already.

 

[pholtz]

I finally have time, and no data base errors, so I can take a look at the turn. I like your reporting John. Example, the HA trying to suicide on the pike

I like the idea of mercantilism. Use enough merchants as the free specialists to cover any costs, and we'll get a big boost to our research from representation.

I agree that Ulundi should be working the wheat tile. It is our capital and we have the Bureaucracy bonus. Ulundi's well being should count for much more than Iron Will's.

John, you mentioned before that you are uncomfortable with whipping. I was too at one time. But, for example, if you whip a granary early in a cities growth, it will grow faster and eventually outpace the city where you didn't whip. In fact, a granary should be one of the first buildings built, in any new city. I think a switch to slavery to whip some core buildings is called for. Core buildings are probably courthouse/granary/forge, and maybe Hippodrome.

We need to be spreading Buddhism to all our cities that don't have it and build temples and other religious buildings. + hammers because of the AP.

I don't think Thessa should be building a bank. It is not a commerce city. We need to modernize our forces. Have it build military continuously from now on, deleting those units it replaces. Our power is getting too low, and we need to start preparing for a war against HC. We have our UU.

Can't think of much else. I think HC is going for the culture win . I think we need to plan a war against HC before Rifling/Cannons. So the window for war will close in the not too distant future.

Edit: I can see an argument for either the Sistine Chapel or the University of Sankore. for the GE.

 

[IamJohn]

Quick thought: for Sistine vs sankor I say for sistine's. Not only is the border likely to exist for quite awhile, but we're fighting well established cities, we need the biggest advantage possible IMO.

 

[Whosit]

OK, I've played 5 turns so far (not including the long inherited turn). I'm far from done, but here's an evening update:

Major events:
-Built the Sistine Chapel in Ulundi (Engineer wouldn't fully rush it in Gem City for some reason)
-Ulundi is now busy spreading Buddhism to everywhere that lacks it.
-Changed to Slavery and Mercantilism. Have done some whipping, plan to do more.
-We are teching at 50% at a small profit.
-Learned Education, stole Printing Press, working on Liberalism
-Plan to tech Lib to 1 turn then stop, start on something else until the AI close in on Lib (good thing for Espionage!). If we're very, very lucky, I hope to grab, say, Steam Power or some other expensive tech with Lib, but there are many pre-reqs to tech, so it's unlikely.

Seems to be going well so far. I'll post a full report and save when I've finished my set.

 

[IamJohn]

-Plan to tech Lib to 1 turn then stop, start on something else until the AI close in on Lib (good thing for Espionage!). If we're very, very lucky, I hope to grab, say, Steam Power or some other expensive tech with Lib, but there are many pre-reqs to tech, so it's unlikely.

Hate to break it to you, but the AI already got lib during my turn set. I think it's in a screenshot in my turnset, if I just forgot to post it, sorry!

Edit: Sorry, for some reason I really thought I mentioned it in the report! Here's the image from my turn set.

 

[Whosit]

Ah, well, good thing I stopped when I did, as no beakers have been put into Liberalism. I must have missed that from your report. Makes, sense, I was wondering why none of the AI were working on it . . . and I forgot that I couldn't see that they already had it since we didn't have education yet.

In that case . . . I might tech towards Rifling to keep us on top of the military techs.

 

[The Simple Mind]

What's better / quicker, going for Rifling or going for Steel (for cannons)? With cannons we would be able to take cities with macemen and our UU. With riflemen would we be able to attack with cats & trebs or would we require cannons?

IamJohn, you did mention HC had Lib in turn 8 of your set. Probably missed because it's under the screenshot we stole Music.

 

[IamJohn]

What's better / quicker, going for Rifling or going for Steel (for cannons)? With cannons we would be able to take cities with macemen and our UU. With riflemen would we be able to attack with cats & trebs or would we require cannons?

The nice thing if we went the rifleman route would be that we could draft, which if we do right can be very hammer efficient. Cannons would make stackbuilding much easier however...

IamJohn, you did mention HC had Lib in turn 8 of your set. Probably missed because it's under the screenshot we stole Music.

I knew I mentioned it! In anycase, sorry for hiding it.

 

[Whosit]

Just another update:

I've played 7 more turns. We've teched Gunpowder and have the science slider at 60% at a slight profit. A Great Merchant recently popped, and I'm going to "shop around" for the best place to run a Trade Mission.

However, I've also realized that, despite the relatively high slider, our beaker output is still fairly low. I'm going to try to put together a plan to address that, but I think that, given our empire's set-up, growing cities and running as many specialists (ideally scientists) while building beaker multipliers like Libraries and Universities, will be the best bet. Certain cities will have to run Merchants and gold multipliers to make up for the cash.

Uludni is a Science city. We'll want Oxford there.
Berlin is Gold city, so Wall Street should go there.

Other, non-hammer cities will be tooled as appropriate. Even those running Merchants can make use of beaker multipliers since we're running Representation.

I apologize for the slow going. I have trouble finding the time to play during the week.

 

[IamJohn]

No worries, as long as we know you're working on it I'm happy.