actual post-apocalyptic tech development

[jefmart1]

Disease also stems from living in close proximity with animals and your own filth (it also leads to the discovery of watermelons). I did read Guns Germs and Steel. Presumably, the health of the city reflects these concepts already...

As to the car bombs, I could give or take them. But I would like to se new art for the catapult. Perhaps the catapult could be of metal on the frame of a car or truck?

I would also like to see a catapult or trebuchet on a working flatbed truck.

I know artillery is there in the later game, but that should be either recovered pre-apocalypse materiel or rough new versions. It should be difficult to make artillery shells. So I figure people would make catapults out of existing scrap...

I also mentioned before about fire bombs and gas bombs as promotions for catapults.

Also, maybe a flamethrower promotion and graphics for the Ute (if there isn't one already).

 

[arkham4269]

As to the car bombs, I could give or take them. But I would like to se new art for the catapult. Perhaps the catapult could be of metal on the frame of a car or truck?

I would also like to see a catapult or trebuchet on a working flatbed truck.

Well the problem I see with catapult and/or trebuchets is what I've said before, other than siege engines, they are pretty much useless. The unit density is such that you don't have masses of tightly packed infantry that could potentially be threatened by such weapons. With low density populations, you'd want to maximize your combat power by using Cavalry (early mobile infantry) and vehicles since it is very difficult for armies without them to affect those with them.

So then you get back into attacking cities. As I've pointed out, the barricades of Fury Road are nowhere near the elegance or science of some Vauben fortress, but would be mostly stacked up rubble pushed there to clear the area. Attacking such with catapults isn't going to do a lot. Chucking rocks into the city itself will probably destroy the very stuff you're wanting to take.

So from a cost to effectiveness ratio, catapults and trebuchets are pretty much useless. Now big dart throwers like ballista would be more useful since they are more of a direct fire weapon that could be used to attack hard-points along the 'walls' but even then, it's only a siege weapon; you're just not going to be able to kill that many troops on the ground with it.

So, instead of wasting time, resources, and effort on a weapon that is practically useless, better to go about up-armoring things like tractors, dozers and other large vehicles. I mean Caterpillar built the first tanks for the US Army. As mentioned earlier, these tank-dozers would be better at attacking walls and could also haul "battle-trailers" like modern day elephant howdahs, sort of like how they up-armored the oil trailer in "The Road Warrior" On a stable platform like that, you could easily mount an air compressor to run those dart guns you see in that movie, which in my opinion is probably one of the best, low tech weapon you could build prior to large scale manufacturing of early model machine guns like the Maxim gun or the Vickers water-cooled gun.

Plus, even with the fall of technology, making canons isn't that hard in the sense that the technology isn't that hard. Hell, outside Vancouver barracks there are two canons made by the Fort Vancouver High School metal shop. I mean technology is hard to eradicate. All it takes is a few books kept by one survivalist, and you're going to have the know-how to build things like canons. The problem is getting the tools to make the tools to make the item in question. So early canons wouldn't be that hard to make as long as you have access to a foundry capable of making bells and that sort of technology has been around for hundreds of years. I would say that by the time any Civ is up to building enough gunpowder to field old-style canons, they would have plenty of people who knew the basics of how to make them since so many people would have had all the metallurgic experience due to all the scavaging and reworking of things.

 

[Refar]

The health of the city reflects these concepts already...

This is a very good point actually, because that's exavtlu what does...

However disease is still a inresting concept... Perhaps it is time to think about resurfacing the BTS random events system. I think it would fit well with the mod - There are lost of somewhat random elements in the mod, and this is fun. Adding more would add to the unique character of the mod.

But I would like to se new art for the catapult. Perhaps the catapult could be of metal on the frame of a car or truck?

A better Catapult is on Davids art wishlist since the very beginning - the trouble is, i have not the slightest idea on how it would look like. (And asking myself "How would i build and use a catapult if wake up tomorrow in theis scenatio ?" made me seriously doubt if i would do it at all...)

Right now the "Assault Dozer" concept seems to be the best themed siege unit idea...

 

[frekk]

So how is a young Civ going to move around? The answer is an easy one, both historically & technologically: Railroads.

Rail requires a certain level of social order, though. It is very easy to stop/derail trains or tear up the tracks in order to rob them (or perhaps, collect tolls by force in return for safe passage). So I'd have to say they aren't really viable in a post-apocalyptic world. Yes, you could armour one and load it up with big guns and everything but it won't help much when you turn the corner and they've torn the tracks up. A certain level of security and order is required for trains to be useful for long-distance travel or movement of goods.

The bigger question is not how to get past the walls, but what are the walls made of? Chances are, most cities walls are going to be a big abatis of all sorts of crap laid in a ring around the city. Much of it could be rubble from destroyed buildings and much of it would probably be bits of destroyed heavy things like rail cars, CONEX'es and other big pieces of metal. I'm sure these crude structures would also have some sort of trench as well as wire obstacles. With all the destroyed buildings around, steel girders could be used to make dragon's teeth of the sort you see at the beginning of the movie "Saving Private Ryan".

So, instead of blocks of stone that have been set in over time, refined and had engineers plan it out, you are instead going to have pretty much just a intense debris field build up to a certain height. Now as someone who got to learn a lot about IED's, I can tell you that often times the blast affect of a weapon isn't the killer, but that it creates secondary shrapnel affects.

Crude walls of this type would be very good at keeping ground troops, as was seen in "The Road Warrior" but they would be vulnerable to explosives. So, as I've said before, you take a junker vehicle, load it with lots of gunpowder or what ever explosive you have. Clear a lane for the vehicle and drive it into the wall. The detonation will not only weaken and/or destroy the wall, but the blast will create shrapnel from the wall it kill a lot of people.

I don't really see them using defences quite like that. It would be closer to a Stalingrad sort of situation - miles of bombed out city ruins in which to conduct urban guerrilla warfare. Vehicles of any sort (even car bombs) would be maladapted, as the terrain would be extremely difficult and hazardous, they would be vulnerable to IEDs, have difficulty locating targets, and relentlessly ambushed.

 

[davidlallen]

A better Catapult is on Davids art wishlist since the very beginning - the trouble is, i have not the slightest idea on how it would look like. [...] Right now the "Assault Dozer" concept seems to be the best themed siege unit idea...

I think the sapper and bulldozer combination sounds promising. Want to put a big plow on the truck part of the tanker unit?

 

[arkham4269]

Rail requires a certain level of social order, though. It is very easy to stop/derail trains or tear up the tracks in order to rob them (or perhaps, collect tolls by force in return for safe passage). So I'd have to say they aren't really viable in a post-apocalyptic world. Yes, you could armour one and load it up with big guns and everything but it won't help much when you turn the corner and they've torn the tracks up. A certain level of security and order is required for trains to be useful for long-distance travel or movement of goods.

For the most part, rail links would be used internally where you could protect them. The utility of railroads is directly in proportion of protecting them, which is why in Afghanistan we wish we could build them, but can't protect them.

However, if you are unable to defend rail lines linking your main cities, you have other problems. Besides, another issue is that without gas, a lot of bulk commodities cannot be moved around inside your borders. If you have a Garage built in one city, how do you move all those vehicles that have been marked for use after being reworked? Pretty simple if it just means throwing them on a flatbed trailer and sending them on their way.

Certainly railroads are vulnerable to raiders, but then everything in Civ is vulnerable to raiders. However, unlike cottages or farms, when you destroy a piece of track, the entire rail network isn't invalidated. You can still move troops right up to the break. Once a farm is destroyed, it's gone till rebuilt.

Personally, I believe that many of the units in Fury Road shouldn't be able to travel unless there is a least the type of road that workers can build. Most of these roads would probably be going along old roads and clearing them of the trees and debris that have accumulated over time. As mentioned previously, scientist point out that it only takes 20 years for your typical road to fail and 40 years to be just a flat right-of way. Without such clearing, you'd be trying to move through either dense underbrush or heavy forest, both of which I've had to try to travel through in my Army time and it is not easy, even with modern tracked vehicles.

 

[Refar]

Want to put a big plow on the truck part of the tanker unit?

Plow ? Like in "agricultural tool" ? I guess i am missing another meaning of the word...

 

[arkham4269]

Plow ? Like in "agricultural tool" ? I guess i am missing another meaning of the word...

Something like this:

 

[davidlallen]

Yeah, like that. If you google "bulldozer" you'll see a bunch of examples. I think the best word for the big thing on the front is "plow", but wikipedia suggests "blade" is the more appropriate word.

 

[Refar]

I think i would rather like a new unit than redone truck - i had the idea of a war-traktor for a while now, but did not come to do it yet (Partly because of lackof good reference...)

Now when you show it to me, i think i even heard people calling it plow before...
But on your post i somehow imagined the Truck pulling a plow instead of the Tanker trailer... So i was a bit irritated.

 

[davidlallen]

That is why they say a picture is worth a thousand words, I guess.

 

[Refar]

I will upload the caravans in a few minutes... Then i am going to look if i find some good "Improvized Armored Bulldozer" reference...

 

[frekk]

Would armour really be around? Who is going to have the gas to run those machines?

Sure, you could have some sort of steam-powered something or other, but a steam engine isn't going to be able to move anything with armour plating thick enough to resist RPGs and IEDs.

 

[arkham4269]

I think i would rather like a new unit than redone truck - i had the idea of a war-traktor for a while now, but did not come to do it yet (Partly because of lackof good reference...)

Now when you show it to me, i think i even heard people calling it plow before...
But on your post i somehow imagined the Truck pulling a plow instead of the Tanker trailer... So i was a bit irritated.

I take it that English is not your first language? If not, then I can really see your problem. Tractor can mean the sort of vehicle that is used to pull farming plows. Tractor can also mean any sort of heavy duty truck that pulls a trailer as in the 18 Wheeler type. In this case the 'tractor' is the truck.

As for plows, that is often used for what a the bulldozer has to push earth. It is often called a "Bulldozer blade". In the picture I posted above, what you're seeing is called a "Mine Plow" and is used to detonate mines in front of the vehicle and is also used to clear wire obstacles and the like.

Here are some good things to look at:
The "Killdozer" where a guy up-armored a heavy bulldozer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na1_welzfxo

If you want to see a good example of what you can do with an old tank, try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M728_Combat_Engineer_Vehicle - Here you can see the dozer blade that most people think of when they are saying a "plow"

Another picture of sort of the opposite of a plow, but useful tool would be this scoop: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wheel-loader02.jpg

And last, but not least, this is a heavy dozer that has been up-armored. This is a production version the military uses that would pretty much be what people would be trying to make when creating a "Mega-Dozer"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:IDF-D9L003.jpg - The attachment on the back is for making trenches. It doesn't dig the trench by itself, but it breaks up the hard ground so other vehicles that have scoops can have an easier time to dig up the dirt. A vehicle like this might not be fast, but it can also haul a lot of weight. Imagine a vehicle like this pulling the trailer in this picture: http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pix/trucks/len_rogers/2005/oct07/man-bulk.jpg - You could easily see cutting holes in the sides and making a movable fort out of it.

 

[arkham4269]

Would armour really be around? Who is going to have the gas to run those machines?

Sure, you could have some sort of steam-powered something or other, but a steam engine isn't going to be able to move anything with armour plating thick enough to resist RPGs and IEDs.

Well as I've mentioned in previous posts, RPG's are a bit thin on the ground, although it might be possible to create a low-tech bazooka with an alcohol-fueled rocket, but they probably wouldn't be safe enough to use.

As for IED threat, from a game perspectives, they'd fall under bombcars in that they'd have to be like Cruise Missiles: one shot weapons.

Plus the troops in Iraq showed that armor is as simple as welding plates onto your vehicle. It's not the best, but versus small arms, it does the job.

As for steam engines, remember, steam has been used to push, pull, drive many a very large machine. remember that locomotives were steam driven and that while a big vehicle is heavy, it also allows for a larger steam engine. I've seen YouTube videos where someone took a small steam locomotive and swapped the rail wheels for drive train wheels and made up tank treads and that steam tank could move pretty fast.

 

[davidlallen]

Would armour really be around? Who is going to have the gas to run those machines?

Welcome to the sub-forum. Have you played through the mod yet? There is a "fuel tanker" unit which carries gas. If we wind up with a superheavy unit, then it will be gas-powered just like the jeep and humvee units in the game already. That would be more of a mid game unit to bulldoze debris out of the way of a city assault. The (earlier) game unit to assault cities would be a sapper, built on the grenadier model. It is a guy who either throws explosives at the wall, or sneaks up and sticks them onto the wall.

 

[davidlallen]

As for steam engines, remember, steam has been used to push, pull, drive many a very large machine. remember that locomotives were steam driven and that while a big vehicle is heavy, it also allows for a larger steam engine. I've seen YouTube videos where someone took a small steam locomotive and swapped the rail wheels for drive train wheels and made up tank treads and that steam tank could move pretty fast.

Is there any information on how much wood is required to burn to move any significant distance in a day? For jeeps, we have gas tankers; for steam powered units, wouldn't we have to have wood trailers they carry along? Maybe they could "refuel" in forests, but even though it runs on steam it still needs fuel.

 

[frekk]

Is there any information on how much wood is required to burn to move any significant distance in a day? For jeeps, we have gas tankers; for steam powered units, wouldn't we have to have wood trailers they carry along? Maybe they could "refuel" in forests, but even though it runs on steam it still needs fuel.

Coal is more portable. It would be really difficult to run large steam engines such as locomotives on wood. Coal is light enough that the engine can usually haul a decent supply of it, the bigger problem is water.

 

[arkham4269]

Is there any information on how much wood is required to burn to move any significant distance in a day? For jeeps, we have gas tankers; for steam powered units, wouldn't we have to have wood trailers they carry along? Maybe they could "refuel" in forests, but even though it runs on steam it still needs fuel.

Well in my delving into steampunk madness, I found that these days, most steam engines (and there are a lot more than you think) use propane. In fact a lot of vehicles use something called "autogas". However, in a classic steam engine, the propane would heat the water in lieu of wood.

I've tried to do some wiki searches and the like on how hard it is to make propane and all I've come up with is that it is a by-product of refining natural gas and/or petroleum.

Plus, remember that coal is also a good (if heavy in large amounts) fuel for steam engines.

 

[Refar]

Coal in not easily accessible however - there are only few areas left in the world where you can access coal without heavy machines.
I think Arkhams note on gas powered steam engines, is the most likely variant.

But i still dont like the Steam Engine idea as a whole.

If talking gas powered - some modern MBT and Gunships are powered by gas turbines. And a normal combustion engine can run on gas with minimal adjustments. So what's the point bothering with steam engines - which probably no one knows how to build properly anyway.