actual post-apocalyptic tech development

[davidlallen]

I can add coal as a resource, but it's still the same issue: if you have to mine coal and carry it along, plus carry or find water (not so easy in the desert) then steam power may not be such an obvious choice. Wouldn't I have to model coal/water haulers for steam powered units?

 

[arkham4269]

But i still dont like the Steam Engine idea as a whole.

If talking gas powered - some modern MBT and Gunships are powered by gas turbines. And a normal combustion engine can run on gas with minimal adjustments. So what's the point bothering with steam engines - which probably no one knows how to build properly anyway.

Gas turbines they may be, but they don't run on natural gas, but on a variant of JP-5, the same sort of fuel used in jets. It's a much more refined, powerful, volatile and expensive form of regular gas. It's also why they have so much heat. They tried to replace the old M88 tank recovery vehicle with one built on the M1 Abrams chassis but they couldn't get it to work because the heat of the engine would end up melting what it was towing.

As for knowing how to build, steam engines are still used today in many industries, are easy to build, considering they are a 19th century technology and don't require gas if you don't have it. Sure coal is hard to come by, but wood can be used. Plus, if you have natural gas deposit, but no oil, you can make propane, which as I've said is the main way modern steam engines are powered.

Plus, steam doesn't have to be used in vehicles: steam technology is what drove the Industrial Revolution. Plus, remember that nuclear power is just one big steam plant where the heat from the nuclear decay is used to heat water to push turbines to create electricity. In a world without electricity, unless you have access to streams and rivers with a good current to run water wheels, steam is about your only other option for non human/animal powered machines.

 

[Refar]

Stationary steam engines are something i can live with, tho i am not sure how much impact they would have on gameplay.

The Steam Turbines used in nuclear power plants are a whole different kind of beast, they need huge pressure (and temerature). I dont think building thse from scrap metal our poor survivors can scavenge is such a good idea.

 

[arkham4269]

Stationary steam engines are something i can live with, tho i am not sure how much impact they would have on gameplay.

The Steam Turbines used in nuclear power plants are a whole different kind of beast, they need huge pressure (and temerature). I dont think building thse from scrap metal our poor survivors can scavenge is such a good idea.

In never implied that they would; I'm just saying that steam technology isn't something that suddenly got junked like the 8-Track tape after oil went into general use.

And while it might not have a lot of general use in the terms of units, steam for industry makes it possible for lots of projects that probably couldn't be done. Steam driven locomotives and steam driven riverboats and steamships were the first major improvement over canals to move people and material around. Steam pistons can be used to pound, cut, hammer and do a lot of power intensive works. Many of the tech trees I've see sort of leave out this step in industry.

Again, I'm not advocating going nuts with steam units, I've just advocated that the technology exist today and existed for a long time when steam was it since oil hadn't been "invented" in a modern sense. So just because a Civ doesn't have access to lots of oil, there are other alternatives.

Plus, realism or not, you wouldn't just jump from guys on horses w/crossbows right into vehicles like we have now; there is nothing stopping people from creating intermediary steam vehicles, especially since so many oil vehicles would just be laying around available for conversion.

 

[jefmart1]

This is a very good point actually, because that's exavtlu what does...

However disease is still a inresting concept... Perhaps it is time to think about resurfacing the BTS random events system. I think it would fit well with the mod - There are lost of somewhat random elements in the mod, and this is fun. Adding more would add to the unique character of the mod.

A better Catapult is on Davids art wishlist since the very beginning - the trouble is, i have not the slightest idea on how it would look like. (And asking myself "How would i build and use a catapult if wake up tomorrow in theis scenatio ?" made me seriously doubt if i would do it at all...)

Right now the "Assault Dozer" concept seems to be the best themed siege unit idea...

I like the assault dozer idea, but see it as a later game concept. Without gasoline or vehicles, how would you destroy city defenses? They don't have to throw rocks, they could throw metal balls or fire or gas.

It just seems logical that catapults would be built to attack heavily defended strongpoints in the absecence of artillery or vehicles.

 

[arkham4269]

It just seems logical that catapults would be built to attack heavily defended strongpoints in the absence of artillery or vehicles.

If you go back a bit in this thread, you can see my points in messages 31 and 42 why catapults would not be very effective against the sort of barricades that would be, in essence, just piles of destroyed buildings/vehicles pushed into a defensive ring around the city center. This sort of rubble abatis would not stand up against explosives, but would do pretty well against any non-engine powered ram or explosives.

Plus, as I mentioned not to long ago, another problem is that with catapults, you can't always expect to hit your target; you don't want to overshoot into the city since you might end up destroying some very valuable stuff your trying to steal in the first place.

Plus, since for much of the early game (say the first 20-40 years) you're really not going to have access to many tracked vehicles with the power to plow through such a wall so for the most part, the barricade is probably mostly the crude abatis with a trench/ditch outer ring along with wire obstacles. This is enough to help deter infantry and trucks (concertina wire does wonders on wheeled vehicles as I can attest by personal observation) but in the face of something like a heavy duty Caterpillar dozer, would probably fail pretty quickly.

Hence my whole point of steam engines. They may not be as effective as gas/oil vehicles, but if you make some early-ish in the game, you could use the to great effect when attacking cities.

Perhaps there could be a "National" unit that is built like a FfH hero unit where you get your steam "Killdozer" available somewhat early. It's tough, slow and really only works against cities. Is it worth the time and resources to build it instead of 2-3 buildings or lots of cheaper units? Depending on your Vision and your Civ, it may be if you are a conquering type.

 

[Refar]

It just seems logical that catapults would be built to attack heavily defended strongpoints in the absecence of artillery or vehicles.

I am not sure how logical it actually is.
A catapult is easily outranged by most modern rifles, slow moving (if at all) and slow rate of fire. Deploying, loading and using such a weapon on a hevily defended stronghold, where defenders have access to even some firearms, is more or less suicide - and firearms come up quite quick in the game.
So maybe the answer here is...

Without gasoline or vehicles, how would you destroy city defenses?

Perhaps you wouldnt.

 

[arkham4269]

I can add coal as a resource, but it's still the same issue: if you have to mine coal and carry it along, plus carry or find water (not so easy in the desert) then steam power may not be such an obvious choice. Wouldn't I have to model coal/water haulers for steam powered units?

Well I think coal and sulfur can should be added, especially since sulfur is really important in any large scale gunpowder production without the aid of modern synthetics. Is there a way to make them rare? Also, if you're going to have oil, you need to have a natural gas which is extracted by very similar technology as oil. However, I think I'm wondering about the whole fuel truck thing. I realize it's for ease of game play, but one of the big things about oil and n-gas is that you can pump it out of the ground but it won't do you much good until it's refined.

So to me, the fuel trucks shouldn't appear from the oil wells, but from where you have built an oil or n-gas refinery. For the scale of the game, I'm not sure how many of these you'd need, but I almost see them as being a national wonder (build one big one and protect it at all costs) that can produce a certain amount of fuel trucks dependent on how many oil wells you have available.

I think this would add more realism to the game and show how vulnerable oil & n-gas production can be. I mean oil wells can be destroyed and rebuilt relatively quickly compared to having to rebuild an oil refinery. With all the danger in the Fury Road world, I can't see building refineries out on the oil site where they can't (at least in the game) be protected other than parking units on them.

 

[frekk]

Coal in not easily accessible however - there are only few areas left in the world where you can access coal without heavy machines.

Yes and no - coal shale is not easy to access, but charcoal (which is almost as good, and certainly much better than wood, for steam engines) can be produced anywhere there are trees with very primitive technology. Coppicing.

Of course, we haven't considered other types of engines. These days they're running busses on vegetable oil, and then there's ethanol and methanol to consider.

 

[frekk]

Without gasoline or vehicles, how would you destroy city defenses?

Actually, in modern warfare, armoured fighting vehicles are traditionally least effective in urban combat. Not that they aren't used, especially when it's just low-intensity fighting, but when you've got a really bombed out, ruined city the terrain makes the usefulness of fighting vehicles dubious to say the least. Witness Stalingrad - and it's not limited to metropolitan centres either (eg the little-known Battle of Ortona)

 

[El_Duderino]

@frekk yes charcoal is easily produced where there is an abundance of wood... but when i think post-apocolyptic australia lots of forests doesnt come to mind

 

[davidlallen]

So to me, the fuel trucks shouldn't appear from the oil wells, but from where you have built an oil or n-gas refinery. [...] I think this would add more realism to the game and show how vulnerable oil & n-gas production can be. I mean oil wells can be destroyed and rebuilt relatively quickly compared to having to rebuild an oil refinery. With all the danger in the Fury Road world, I can't see building refineries out on the oil site where they can't (at least in the game) be protected other than parking units on them.

Up until version 5, I think, the oil well was an improvement, and there was a refinery (city) building, and the oil trucks spawned on refineries. However, this led to a mostly defensive battle since as long as you had one well, you only had to protect your cities. Putting the spawn point at the improvement makes each well more important.

Besides, not that movies prove anything, but the whole point of the good guy camp in Road Warrior is that they were both pumping and refining at the same point, since they produced gasoline. So my improvements match that setting.

 

[frekk]

@frekk yes charcoal is easily produced where there is an abundance of wood... but when i think post-apocolyptic australia lots of forests doesnt come to mind

Post-apocalyptic Australia is kind of screwed for energy, period. Not enough arable land to divert to ethanol, not enough natural vegetation to sustain coal or methanol production for long, and the only oil is a few tiny deposits of shale oil, which require a very high level of technology and industrial capacity to extract and process.

 

[davidlallen]

More specifically, it is the imaginary Australia of the Road Warrior movies, which at least had some real oil.

 

[arkham4269]

Besides, not that movies prove anything, but the whole point of the good guy camp in Road Warrior is that they were both pumping and refining at the same point, since they produced gasoline. So my improvements match that setting.

Well in line with what I said about sappers building abatis', I have no problem with the refinery being by the oil wells (less transport costs) but since there isn't a way to build a Fort in the same square as a resource (which is stupid) I think you should be able to build a "Fort" unit that represents all the barricades and stuff you saw in "The Road Warrior" - It wouldn't move and would give a defensive bonus and maybe a small healing bonus to units in the same hex.

Perhaps this could be made by sappers or use the idea where you need one or two worker unit's to 'sacrifice' themselves to create the Fort so you just can't build them all over. Plus, maybe you could put a cap on them so you don't have players building them all over, but then again, I've never liked that Fort's can't be used on resource squares since that is the very thing you're trying to protect!

 

[arkham4269]

More specifically, it is the imaginary Australia of the Road Warrior movies, which at least had some real oil.

Don't feel bad about this Frekk, I've been banging my head against the whole idea of post-apocalyptic Australia since it's probably one of the worst places to be stuck in (resource wise) after the Doom of Man(tm). The land sucks for farming, most of the continent is desert, few natural resources and a low population to begin with so there isn't a lot of stuff to loot.

However, as has been discussed quite often, this Mod screams for area specific scenarios.

 

[jefmart1]

If you go back a bit in this thread, you can see my points in messages 31 and 42 why catapults would not be very effective against the sort of barricades that would be, in essence, just piles of destroyed buildings/vehicles pushed into a defensive ring around the city center. This sort of rubble abatis would not stand up against explosives, but would do pretty well against any non-engine powered ram or explosives.

Plus, as I mentioned not to long ago, another problem is that with catapults, you can't always expect to hit your target; you don't want to overshoot into the city since you might end up destroying some very valuable stuff your trying to steal in the first place.

Plus, since for much of the early game (say the first 20-40 years) you're really not going to have access to many tracked vehicles with the power to plow through such a wall so for the most part, the barricade is probably mostly the crude abatis with a trench/ditch outer ring along with wire obstacles. This is enough to help deter infantry and trucks (concertina wire does wonders on wheeled vehicles as I can attest by personal observation) but in the face of something like a heavy duty Caterpillar dozer, would probably fail pretty quickly.

Hence my whole point of steam engines. They may not be as effective as gas/oil vehicles, but if you make some early-ish in the game, you could use the to great effect when attacking cities.

Perhaps there could be a "National" unit that is built like a FfH hero unit where you get your steam "Killdozer" available somewhat early. It's tough, slow and really only works against cities. Is it worth the time and resources to build it instead of 2-3 buildings or lots of cheaper units? Depending on your Vision and your Civ, it may be if you are a conquering type.

I'm sold...I am coming around to the sappers and/or car bomb idea. Maybe available with a chemistry tech for ANFO bombs (Ammonium Nitrate/Fuel Oil) rather then c-4.

 

[Jabie]

Tangential approach: What about using a civic for Energy?

Choosing the relevant Civic would determine what the primary energy source: Oil, Steam, Gas, Batteries (Solar and Hydro), Bio-fuel, etc. Each would have an effect and produce Fuel Trucks at a different rate as listed in the Civic and could have other effects: Coal = +2 Unhealth, Bio Fuel = -1 Food, etc. Specific buildings and units would only be available with the relevant civic.

 

[arkham4269]

Tangential approach: What about using a civic for Energy?

Sounds like something that might work. Plus it allows to change as your technology changes.

 

[davidlallen]

Interesting idea. Each one would have a tech requirement, of course. The idea of civics is that there are supposed to be tradeoffs between them, rather than each new technology automatically taking over from the previous. If there are enough different bonus/penalties to them, it might work. We can get Al Gore to suggest the tradeoffs