actual post-apocalyptic tech development

[arkham4269]

he idea of civics is that there are supposed to be trade-offs between them, rather than each new technology automatically taking over from the previous. If there are enough different bonus/penalties to them, it might work. We can get Al Gore to suggest the trade-offs

Well after looking up Bio-Diesel, it has the advantage that a lot of the base product used is so called 'waste oil' that is left over from cooking. So after you fry up your Iguana-On-A-Stick, that oil can be made into Bio-Diesel. The question I would ask is that recycling would be a mandated way of life in a Fury Road world, so getting people to recover their cooking oil for bio-diesel production is easy to see, but is it enough to power the vehicles of the civ? Probably not so you'd need to have some sort of negative food effect to represent acreage devoted to veggie farming where the food isn't going to be used. Although I would think that even if the veggies aren't eaten by people, the rind and pulp left over after the pressings could be fed to livestock and thus cutting down on the amount of hay and the like they would need.

Now you know my view on resources that plant based since why can you only have corn in one square and not the one right next to it? It's just stupid. However, if we remained chained to that outmoded Civ tradition p) having a corn resource would allow you to produce gasahol.

As much as I like the civic idea, I can't really see enough difference you'd have in power. From what I've read, it would seem likely that the first vehicles would be powered by Gasahol and/or Bio-Diesel since they can be made from products easily grown and a vehicle that is designed to run on Diesel won't 'care' if it's bio or regular diesel.

The only downside to bio-diesel I can find is that by it's nature it attracts water and thus can easily allow water into the engine system which causes problems. Plus, due to it's different chemical make-up, it tends to wear out rubber seals and the like faster than petroleum based oil. So perhaps when a Civ is using bio-fuels, their maintenance cost would be higher for their vehicles.

 

[arkham4269]

One thing I did find about working with vegetable oils, is another reason you'd want to go into it right away is that not only can you make fuel, you make a lot of lubricants, soap, paint and wood treating agents.

So it seems to me, that using bio-fuels, you'd be able to get a lot of trucks, tractors and other heavy equipment already set to run on diesel up and running quickly which is good for the game. However, it would seem that the loss of food units would also be a big problem since food is so scarce in this mod. So again you're having a trade off over units and city growth.

So this leads one to ask, is there a way to make an "oil well" that would work on corn or wheat resources? Would there be a way to show that if you build a bio-fuel extraction plant on this resource, that you'd loss the resource for food, but then could gain fuel trucks? Or, since bio-fuel not only comes from farms, but also from oil originally made for cooking that you could build a refinery in the city and this would cause a city-wide drain on food units coming in? Of course then you'd have the fuel trucks appearing in the city which has been said to make the game a bit too defensive.

 

[davidlallen]

There have been a few discussions about biofuel in the sub-forum. One idea is to have a "biofuel farm" improvement, which you build instead of a farm. It *decreases* the food output of the plot but generates a fuel truck every so often. This gives you a direct tradeoff between food and fuel. I think we can agree that there is no need to manage two types of fuel trucks, the engine doesn't care if it was biofuel or gasoline.

Some people use the waypoint feature of civ, but not everybody knows about it. When you have a medium to large size empire, you may devote one city to just pumping out the same unit over and over, and directing the unit to move to some city on the front. You can set a waypoint for city production. I have thought that it would be nice to set waypoints for depots and oil wells also. So, if you have a depot and an oil well near each other, you might give both of them the same waypoint -- perhaps the nearest city. That way the fuel trucks and the almost-out-of-gas tanks all meet up automatically.

I haven't tried to do that, but if each biofuel farm also generates trucks, this would be important to avoid micromanagement.

 

[arkham4269]

There have been a few discussions about biofuel in the sub-forum. One idea is to have a "biofuel farm" improvement, which you build instead of a farm. It *decreases* the food output of the plot but generates a fuel truck every so often. This gives you a direct tradeoff between food and fuel. I think we can agree that there is no need to manage two types of fuel trucks, the engine doesn't care if it was biofuel or gasoline.

That seems to be the way to go. Plus I like that you can build it instead of a farm, regardless of whether there is a food resource or not. I personally believe that there shouldn't be food resources like wheat or corn, just a resource that shows "good soil" or something that gives the same food bonus since agricultural products aren't like metals or oils that can only be extracted from one plot.

Some people use the waypoint feature of civ, but not everybody knows about it.

Perhaps a tutorial might be posted somewhere for this? I didn't know about it and I've been playing Civ since Civ II.

Another point is if you have promotion jumps like FfH based on tech, you have the oil promotion reduce maintenance costs to the vehicle since the gas has less water and doesn't mess with the seals and gaskets as much.

BTW, we were discussion steam and the need for coal or wood. Obviously bio-disel will fuel all the diesel vehicles, but not the gas powered ones. Another trade off would be to take gas vehicles and use a steam engine to drive them, using the bio-diesel as the heating element, rather than propane.

To me, after all this research, it's looking like you could get vehicles going pretty quickly (not sure about what you'd replace tires with though) just as long as you can get enough people and equipment to do some form of basic machinery (lathes, presses and the like) that can make basic engines, be they steam or what have you. I mean a steam engine isn't rocket science: as long as you can make the engine tight enough to hold pressure, you're good to go.

So the limiting factor is that you can get vehicles up and running quickly with bio-fuels, but at the cost of city growth. Right now, the bottle-neck for me would be gunpowder production. I mean it seems that you can get your diesel truck running pretty quick, but you'll be limited to guys with crossbows for awhile.

 

[davidlallen]

To use a waypoint, click on the city bar for your city. Then move the mouse to some other plot which will be the destination, and shift-right-click. (I never remember which click it is, I think that is correct, I do not have my game here.) A yellow circle will appear. Now whenever that city completes a unit, it will automatically start moving towards the selected plot.

I use this to have 5-6 cities all producing stuff and delivering it to one city or other handy spot on the warfront. So I don't have to worry about when each city finishes; I just get a steady stream of units appearing at the handy spot.

If you forget where you have set the waypoint for a city, I don't think there is any way to display it. But you can "clear" the waypoint by setting the city itself as the waypoint.

 

[phungus420]

For early game seige a smoothbore cannon would probably be the easyist thing to make. Gunpowder would be your only issue, but assuming you have that, you could find any strong pipe, with limited machinery you could add a breach, and just use it to chuck rocks. Certainly would be alot easier to make then a steam driven catapult or treb in a post apocolyptic environment.

Car bombs maybe, some people would use them. But here's the thing assuming you get a vehicle able to roll again, I think you'd find much better uses for it (even with no gas and stuck in neutral) then blowing it up. It's possible not though, scaricity might not be an issue in the timeframe of this mod. Post nuclear war 1/4 - 1/2 the world's population are supposed to survive, but there is no infrustructure left. So everyone starves, things go to sh!t in general, civilization is basically destroyed by the starving mobs. I understand this is supposed to be in the timeperiod after everyone who couldn't make it starved to death, and in such an environment alot of things like broken down cars would probably be in abundance. (The main issue would be food and clean water and allocating labor to do stuff like make working weapons and ammo)

 

[Pyr0mancer]

Rather than a smoothbore cannon, a mortar would be far simpler I think. In fact, I recall seeing a video somewhere of a homemade black-powder mortar that fired bowling balls. Basically just a large steel tube welded to a baseplate. Granted, if the weld is flawed you have a rather catastrophic failure, but still.

Another alternative is black-powder rockets. Simple in concept, and though they aren't much good for damaging structures, en masse they can be quite devastating to unprotected infantry. Think Katyusha batteries, though Congreve rockets would work as well.

 

[arkham4269]

Rather than a smoothbore cannon, a mortar would be far simpler I think. In fact, I recall seeing a video somewhere of a homemade black-powder mortar that fired bowling balls. Basically just a large steel tube welded to a baseplate. Granted, if the weld is flawed you have a rather catastrophic failure, but still.

Well actually you'd probably start with howitzers (which a lot of people forget used to mean a mortar/cannon designed for high arcing fire) since you'd have less of a chance for failure. The only problem with mortars (and rockets) would be getting the fuses right and also there is a lot of training involved which might be tough with resources so tight. Canons, on the other hand, are a bit more "point and shoot" being mostly direct fire weapons prior to the advancement of more modern artillery.

Another alternative is black-powder rockets. Simple in concept, and though they aren't much good for damaging structures, en masse they can be quite devastating to unprotected infantry. Think Katyusha batteries, though Congreve rockets would work as well.

The problem with these is getting them to go anywhere remotely where you target them. The Katyusha's "work" because they are fired into a densely packed urban area where anything they hit is probably worthy of being called a target. Even missiles like the SCUD-D can totally miss it's target if the operators don't correct for a wind as slight as 5mph prompting us intel analyst to say "Accuracy for a SCUD is hitting the city you aimed at!" I was rocketed quite often in Afghanistan with 107mm Chinese rockets and they are basically a propaganda weapon since the odds of them landing on our base and killing anyone was small.

However, if the fuses could be designed, the could make a good anti-personnel weapon in that they are filled with little piece of metal and are primed to detonate above the troops. So these short range, almost medieval rockets would probably be a better bet. However, these rockets (and mortars) should probably get a penalty for attacking vehicles since they move quicker and have less unit density than infantry and thus are much harder to target.

 

[Rasma]

Well actually, you don't need to worry that much about fuses. My friend made a potato cannon that fires on the push of a button with only a pipe what ever he used to propel it and a tazer.

 

[phungus420]

The fuse timer isn't for firing the cannon/mortar, it's for the shell/rocket, so it explodes over your target, not too close, and not too far away.

But like I said, for early, post apocolyptic siege, I think people wouldn't be using things so complex at first. It would be much easier to chuck rocks with a smoothbore cannon you made out of a pipe.

 

[jefmart1]

Or balls of iron or steel melted down from scrap

But once you did that, someone would try to go one better and reinvent shells and rockets, etc.

 

[arkham4269]

But once you did that, someone would try to go one better and reinvent shells and rockets, etc.

Another reason for rockets is for the fear factor. The whole "Bombs bursting in Air" is never good for morale. That and it allows you to attack troops in 'dead spaces' that give them cover from direct fire.

Plus, remember that by the time this mod gets going, there will be less and less folks who don't remember the modern age. We tend to forget how desensitized we are to certain things. I'm not saying rockets will be seen as 'magic' or anything like that, but while working in Afghanistan, I can say that people that aren't used to a technology will fear it more than they should due to the unknown involved with it. We heard all sorts of things the Bad Guys thought we could do (and I wish I could tell you because they're funny but classified because we still want them to think we can do it) that sound totally crazy to a literate, technical savvy First World person.

So the sounds of the rockets and the fact that they resemble the "old time" weapons would give them an air of lethality that they wouldn't deserve but soldiers, like athletes can be a superstitious bunch and fear is a powerful weapon if used properly. Look how effective the Stuka's were simply because they added that flap that created their signature 'scream' as they dove.

 

[frekk]

We tend to forget how desensitized we are to certain things.

We are? I mean, I don't know about you, but most people where I live have never seen a large explosion - let alone a missile impact - in real life. I tend to think that average people in the First World would be far, far more shocked at witnessing such a thing in their own cities and towns than are people in Afghanistan, Israel, Palestine, etc. People around here would freak if just a grenade went off downtown.

I mean, just look at the footage of the faces in the street during the 911/WTC thing - they don't look any more calm than people in African, Middle Eastern, or Balkan conflicts do in footage of artillery shelling or air raids. Less, actually. I'd say we're sheltered, not desensitized. In the wake of whatever caused a global apocalypse, we'd be a lot more accustomed to such things.

 

[arkham4269]

We are? I mean, I don't know about you, but most people where I live have never seen a large explosion - let alone a missile impact - in real life. I tend to think that average people in the First World would be far, far more shocked at witnessing such a thing in their own cities and towns than are people in Afghanistan, Israel, Palestine, etc. People around here would freak if just a grenade went off downtown.

You'd be amazed how much a rocket explosion sounds like a back-hoe digging into the ground. Really, I kid you not. Of course the down side to this is that with all the new construction in and around where I live, I am having serious PTSD issues because I keep hearing things that sound like I'm back getting rocketed.

What I meant about desensitized, was that it's easy for us to see all that . .. .. .. . blow up on TV and maybe think it can't be that bad; but when it happens to you...it's bad.

I remember the awful feeling I had when during a training exercise, we had a jet come in on a bombing run on us. Turned out to be a friendly dropping on targets close to us, but we didn't know that at the time. I remember looking up at that plane thinking, "If this was real, death would be coming down on me; we'd see it and only luck could save me." It was NOT a nice feeling. Getting attack/straffed from the air just sucks.

 

[jefmart1]

I think Arkhams point was that the greater the difference in technology the more it seems like magic. Imagine a tribe that has lived in the depths of the Amazon and never had contact with the outside world...a lighter would seem like magic. Things we describe a science fiction are often possible and are often invented. If you told someone in the 1700's that we could have ships that sailed underwater, they would have thought you were crazy. If you told someone in the early 1900s that we would have a box that that cooks food with heat or fire they would have said you were insane. Going to the moon, boxes that allow you to transmit pictures all over the world in an instant, boxes that keep your food cold without ice, boxes with wheels that move on their own without horses, etc.

If you don't have experience with those things they would seem like magic. We also take for granted that cool stuff can be invented and are less impressed or surprised when that stuff is, like the viewscreens from Star Trek or a version of the medical tricorder. Would anyone really be surprised if someone invented or discovered warp travel and teleporters?

Keep in mind that in the mod its a few years or a generation or two past the apocalypse. There would be many who haven't seen the wonders of the Old World and are not very educated.

 

[phungus420]

We also take for granted that cool stuff can be invented and are less impressed or surprised when that stuff is, like the viewscreens from Star Trek or a version of the medical tricorder.

Tricorder, saw it on the History channel, 2 years ago. They had a device that listened for gut sounds, Detected heart pulses of elctro magnetic disturbances, and used CNS static to pinpoint the location of any mammal over 100Kgs within 300 meteres. Sounded like star trek tricorder to me, but I don't think the congress allocated the funds to mass produce the tri-corder product, even thought it was proven to work. It would have no real use in an urban conflict (it would be overwhelmed), and if the US was fighting in a non urban area, it was decided they could mass produce them easily enough, if needed, and they costed alot per unit, like a million bucks a piece.

Most soldiers ain't given pieces of equipment they are personally acountable for, more then Night vision goggles, wich are worth a couple grand a piece.

 

[arkham4269]

I think Arkhams point was that the greater the difference in technology the more it seems like magic.

Exactly. Plus, since there would be examples, in books or perhaps the occasional movie/CD/DVD used on special occasions, anything that seemed a bit more like what was before (like rockets) might cause a bit more dread in those who never had any direct experience with it.

If you don't have experience with those things they would seem like magic. We also take for granted that cool stuff can be invented and are less impressed or surprised when that stuff is, like the viewscreens from Star Trek or a version of the medical tricorder. Would anyone really be surprised if someone invented or discovered warp travel and teleporters?

It's funny how quick technology can change. I mean I was 3 when Star Trek first came out and now 30 years from then we went from GINOURMOUS computers to laptops. How many times have you seen a ST: Voyager episode and marveled that they STILL don't seem to have a wi-fi network to send messages around the ship? I mean, "Take this to LT Torres in Engineering!" Pa-Leeze! It reminds me of the Harvey Birdman: Attorney At Law episode when the Jetsons (who are from the 21st Century) come back and try to impress Harvey w/their tech...much of it in that early cartoon has already been superseded!

One of the reasons I've pushed for some of the steampunk stuff or pushing ideas from books like the 1632 series is that by the time of the game, there will be less and less people from the Post-War world and those behind will have become masters of taking what they have and adapting. Many of the things we have now or have had are all predicated on having a nation with an intact infrastructure to support it. In the threads about railroads, people discuss how easy it is to cut them; well think of how hard it would be to establish roads strong enough to deal with trucks capable of hauling the equivalent capacity. Remember, but turn 80, we're about 50 years after the War and without maintenance with equipment and resources that I doubt the survivors will have, the old roads will be gone.

So, I think that the game should (or at least a mod of the mod) should take into account that the survivors won't just instantly go from a period of not being able to do much to suddenly jumping back onto the regular vanilla BTS tech tree. Due to lack of resources, or fear of constant attack, the new Civs might make go down different routes because they have to.

But then again, we're straying down the road of the difference between Fury Road being a Mad Max simulation over a general mod to simulate what happens after the Doom of Man(tm). (Personally from what I have researched, those folks down in Australia are screwed; better to crank out the old Polynesian boats and get out of Perth and head for a better place!)

 

[arkham4269]

Most soldiers ain't given pieces of equipment they are personally accountable for, more then Night vision goggles, wich are worth a couple grand a piece.

Actually that has changed. Soldiers now are issued their TA-50 once and it follows them for the rest of their career. So you now your personally accountable for something like $14,000 of equipment, especially if you account for the M-4 w/CCO.

 

[phungus420]

Weird, when I was in you got different TA-50 from each duty assignment. Which kind of made sense, since you need alot more cold weather gear in Korea then you do in NC.

What in the new TA-50 you get issued is worth $10,000? It's mostly just clothes, and backpacks, suspenders, stuff like that... do they include an M4 and night vision goggles in the new TA-50 they hand out? Also if it follows you now for the rest of your army career, do you get it issued in AIT or Basic or something?

 

[arkham4269]

What in the new TA-50 you get issued is worth $10,000? It's mostly just clothes, and backpacks, suspenders, stuff like that... do they include an M4 and night vision goggles in the new TA-50 they hand out? Also if it follows you now for the rest of your army career, do you get it issued in AIT or Basic or something?

Well now it's all your body armor (which isn't cheap) your high-speed (and I mean that in a good way) medical kit, and the like. Plus with the newer modular stuff, they give you more and it also costs more. I'm sure the M-4 is included.

Pretty much you are issued your full load at Basic and the rest comes at your first duty station. Each station can add stuff as I'm sure when you're at Fort Drum, they might want to add to your basic TA-50.