Addition to Great Library Exploit

[Minstrel]

Hello all,

During one of my previous games, I got the idea to gift the Great Library to another civ right before getting education in hopes of getting the benefit of the GL twice. So I tried it in my next game. Deity level, Default rules, continents, standard map, playing as the Ottomans. I was able to beat the AI to the Great Library. Actually it is pretty easy to beat the AIs to it, you just have to plan ahead. Here I was, alone on a medium sized continent slowly building cities and waiting for Literature so that I could build the Great Library. I had most of the continent settled but knew that Arabia who was on another continent just one coastal tile away would be sending settlers very soon. Of course they did, the AI will settle Mars if there is vacant space. After the Arabs settled about 4 Cities I knew that I was going to go to war with them at the proper time because I just hate sharing. LOL I bided my time, got the Great Library, and started getting Techs on the next turn. On my second or third turn I got Chivalry. Whoohoo! Im glad they didn't go directly for Education. So I started building Knight in preparation for attacking Arabia and ridding the scourge from my continent. Right before getting Education from the other Civs, I decided to Gift the city with the Great Library to the Arabs. They were rather pleased with me after that. Again I bided my time and continued to build Knights. All this time my science is set to zero. By now including the City I gifted them, Arabia had 5 cities on my continent. Twenty or so turns later when I had enough Knights and figured that the AIs were way ahead in Tech, I decided it was time to take my city back. Now comes the beautiful part. I took back the city with the Great Library and on my next turn received all the tech up to the Industrial ages. The last tech I got was Nationalism. So I actually got the benefit of the Great Library twice!

Does this sound like a fair way to abuse the AI? Is this an exploit? I mean if you can do it, it isn't cheating is it? LOL
Let me know what you guys think.

 

[anarres]

It seems exploitative to me, although in MP games I would consider it fair play.

Wouldn't this post be better off in that thread though?

 

[The Last Conformist]

I too think it's an exploit.

 

[Minstrel]

Disregard.

 

[Minstrel]

Disreqard this, the submit reply feature is going whack today.

 

[civ_steve]

This seems only slightly more exploitive than taking the Great Library from another civ that built it and slingshotting ahead however many Techs behind you are, which many people use. The only difference is that you've intentionally 'given' the Great Library away, with the plan of retaking it. It is devious!!

 

[Minstrel]

Hi civ_steve,

It is devious isn't it. Gotta love it. It gives you a heck of a boost in Tech. Thanks for your reply.

 

[Mano3]

Very devious. What I don't understand is how you got so many techs after Education was discovered? Please explain...

 

[Hellfire]

It sounds like an order in which the game was coded to look for such things. I bet this is psuedo code is how the system is working:

1: Start on new turn
2: Check to see if civ has library, if no end
3: Check to see if civ has education, if yes then end
4: Start loop check for techs
5: Load tech, check to see if 3 civs know, if no, end loop
6: give tech to civ, and go back to 5 for the next tech unless last tech is reached, then end loop.
7: move onto next function.

The idea is that the system prevents the check from running if you have education, but if at the start of the loop check you don't have education, it doesn't break the loop and checks every single tech. The next time this code is run, the check will be stopped because now the player has education.

To stop this, you could block any tech that requires education, and therefore basically block any advance in the industrial or modern age as well, but you could get everything up through military tradition potentially then and that's still pretty good.

At the same time, if you think about it, you are giving up quite a bit in order to get some greater return, and that's not entire outside of the spirit of the game. You are giving up a productive city with good culture output (the great library is one of the top culture producing wonders) but you make up the investment later by getting a huge tech windfall. I think its less of an exploit and more of a "guarenteed investment." Plus, exactly how does one get that far behind in tech without some serious consequences in the interim. Minstrel how did you deal with the fact that you didn't have all those other techs before education? Did the arabs not have a saltpeter resource? A strong defense of musketmen and cavalry would make this tactic pretty risky for someone stuck with pikemen and knights.

 

[Minstrel]

Hellfire....... Plus, exactly how does one get that far behind in tech without some serious consequences in the interim. Minstrel how did you deal with the fact that you didn't have all those other techs before education? Did the arabs not have a saltpeter resource? A strong defense of musketmen and cavalry would make this tactic pretty risky for someone stuck with pikemen and knights.

Hi Hellfire,

Up till the time I gifted the Great Library to the Arabs, I was at tech parity. For the twenty or so turns I built up Knight and prepared to take the city back, I had no problem with the other civs. This could have been because I was on a continet by myself, with only those 5 Arabs cities for company. Although I think this strategy would work even if the other civs had access to you. When I took back the city from the Arabs, they did have musketmen and ansar warriors. They just didn't have a big enough force in their cities. This is probably cause their main stronghold was on a continet only one coastal square from mine. However, even if their main cities had been on the same continent, I could have easily held them off after taking back the Great Library. Remember I got Military Tradition on the very next turn. I would have rushed some Calvary and that would have been that. I had plenty of gold. The Arabs did have Military Tradition and did manage to land about four Calvary on my continent. It was short work to take care of them. I see your point though. If they would of had easier access to me, their counter attack would have been more aggressive. I still think I could have held them off till I could have sued for peace. No one had railroad in place at this time, so it would have been slow going.

I went on to win a Space Race Victory in this game, Deity Level. I am going to try this strategy again but on a Pangaea Map. See how that works when were all together. Thanks for your comments.

 

[Minstrel]

Originally posted by Mano3
Very devious. What I don't understand is how you got so many techs after Education was discovered? Please explain...

Hi Mano3,

I think Hellfire explained it pretty well. After I took the Great Library back, I was given all the techs up to Nationalism. I simply got all the techs that the other civs had at that time. I also got education in that turn and that ended it. Thanks for replying.

 

[Bacon King]

hmm, very devious indeed....

So using this exploit, you could get all techs in the game, while only having to reacearch 2 of them...

 

[nalves]

Originally posted by Bacon King
hmm, very devious indeed....

So using this exploit, you could get all techs in the game, while only having to reacearch 2 of them...

In theory yes, but Without Education Your best unit would be about 4 in the attack. In other words if the city holding the GL has Infantary defending it, would probably can't take it... .


And yes it's a Exploit.

 

[Aggie]

@Minstrel: this is very clever. And I applaude you for coming up with this tactic. However, I will never use it, even in MP. If people want to kill me with these tricks, they are very welcome to do so. I'm more of a 'sprit of the game' kind of guy.

 

[sysyphus]

Not only, it just seems a little too "tricky" to pull off and not worth the bother.

I'm hesitant to call it an exploit because I can see how this trick may backfire, leaving someone in a position where they can't take it back and thus leaving themselves way behind in tech, with other civs too furious with them to trade tech for a decent price.

 

[farting bob]

Originally posted by nalves


In theory yes, but Without Education Your best unit would be about 4 in the attack. In other words if the city holding the GL has Infantary defending it, would probably can't take it... .


And yes it's a Exploit.

if you only researched direct tolit, build library and then wait and do the eploit, you would have knights at best (unless all AI bypassed that part of the tech try and all went straight for cavalry) attack 4 against MI def 18, when you were tryign to retake the GL city you woudl have:
0.3% chance of winning agaisnt MI fortified in city both vet's.
0.1% chance of winning agaisnt MI fortified in metroplis both vet's.
<0.1% chance of winning agaisnt MI fortified in metropis on hill both vets.
according to combatcalc.
so id rather not try that strategy bacon.......

 

[anarres]

Well, you can research to Military Tradition yourself, that's a given in this situation. You can also time it so you attack the city just as the other civ discovers MI, before it has drafted any in the city.

I think a Cav army of 100 is enough to take a city with several Inf, and it would be lucky to have that if you give the city to a civ on another continent - they're unlikely to be able to get defenders to it, all it will have is what it can draft (95% corruption). The AI isn't well knwon for rushing defenders...

 

[Minstrel]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the replys, Im happy to see you'all are reading the thread. Ok, I started another game using this strategy. Standard map again, continets again, Deity, Default settings. I wound up on a continent with the Mongols and Egypt. I am playing as France, which as you'all know is a Commercial Civ. So I go directly for Writing then Literature. Somewhere along the way I picked up Pottery from the Mongols. So I started some settler factories. Same tactic as before, I built the Great Library and before getting Education, I gifted it to the Mongols, because they were weaker than Egypt. Only this time instead of taking it back in say 20 turns or so, I attacked their main cities and took them over first. After they only had the city with the Great Library left (in my territory) I waited some more. At this point I am somewhat behind in infrastructure. So I started building Library and temples and such. I waited until I knew that the other civs had reached the industrial age and had gone beyond Nationalism this time. When I took back the Great Library, I got all the other techs plus Nationalism, Electricity, Steam Power, Industrialzation, and Communism. Had I waited I could have gotten more techs. However, Egypt and Persia had Steam Power and had started on railroad. I needed Education for University. I didn't think it wise to wait much longer.

As the game stands now, I am the tech leader by electronics and steel. We are almost into the Modern Age. My infrastructure is almost fleshed out. I was able to build Theory of Evolution and Hoover Dam. I am hoping for either a Diplomatic or Space Race Victory.

As far as it being hard to take back the city after you get behind in military tech. It actually isn't hard at all. By taking out the Mongols main cities and leaving just the city with the Great Library, the Mongols had no access to resources to build anything. In fact they never made it to Military Tradition. So in retrospect, it hasn't been hard to take back the city later. Will this always be the case? I think it would be most of the time. By taking out the main cities and saving the Great Library city for last, you pretty much hamstring the civ. Ok, just wanted to update you guys.

 

[anarres]

It would be interesting to see if this works right up to modern, I suspect it will. So obvious to just leave them 1 city!

 

[Minstrel]

Originally posted by anarres
It would be interesting to see if this works right up to modern, I suspect it will. So obvious to just leave them 1 city!

Hi anarres,

You know I see your name all over the place. Civ3duelzone, Apolyton, and of course here at Civfanatics. You get around!

Ok, when I posted the thread, I had gifted the GL to a civ on another continent. They had 5 Cities on mine (including the one I gifted them). So you guys are right about having a hard time taking back the city in that respect. They certainly could have drafted infantry into the city. That is if you waited till they got replaceable parts. I suggest taking the city back well before then. They would have been ahead in tech since their main cities were not touched. In this case, I see you guys point about it being hard to take back the city. I didn't have that problem with the Arabs though. Like you said in your post, it would be hard for them to get defenders to the city, and the AI isn't known for rushing defenders. I think this strategy works either way. It might even work better when the Civ is on the same continent with you, because you get to take their cities and all that goes with that. So far (twice) events have been in my favor. First the Arabs being on another continent, then the Mongols being slightly weaker Militarily than me. Although as Im sure you know, you can usually take out at least one civ in the early game that is near you. So this should work a good percentage of the time. Thanks for your reply.