Afganistan 2007

[Evie]

All I can say at this point is that what you learned of Germany and Japan, and what I did, is obviously at odds. Every source I have seen - and I've studied both countries modern history at university level - indicate a far more nuanced picture than you blithely insist existed.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

I'm 27 - can you stop your ad hominem rants now? Thanks.

No, he's an Objectivist, which just means that he has a belief system worthy of a 13 year old.

Look, my point is that most mature people have sympathy for people they don't agree with or think are unwise. I assure you that if MobBoss or John HSOG or anyone else around here signed up for a tour of duty in Iraq and then got hurt or killed, I would be deeply saddened and sympathetic, even if I think their goals were misguided. Things like intent are very important in my opinion and in the opinion of most people I find to be well-rounded.

 

[GenMarshall]

Edit: Retracted Post

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

Well, I didn't mean to personalize this thread. I was just using them as examples of people I disagree with and think are misguided, but who I think are generally good people with good intents. Replace their names with any others of that description or just use the generic description, but saying you wouldn't care if MobBoss is hurt or killed is something I would leave out of the thread.

 

[JollyRoger]

I'm 27 - can you stop your ad hominem rants now? Thanks.

Yep, can't have that in this thread:

I don't feel sorry for them in the least. They went over there voluntarily, and the possibility getting your head chopped off is certainly part of an equation when visiting an Islamic country. Want to minimize your chances of getting kidnapped and dying? Stay away from those backward crap holes - there are plenty of civilized countries out there.

I would expect better of someone with 14 years of experience.

 

[Evie]

John HSOG, perhaps I would show sympathy and be sadden. But I wont be sadden nor sympathetic if MobBoss gets hurt or killed. Then again, I dont show sympathy nor be sadden when someone whom harmed me gets hurt or killed.

You know, there are a great many posters on this board I completely disagree with, and even at time find completely idiotic.

But I don't think I could manage to be this...words fail me.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

And jeez CG, I don't know why you had to make us criticize you when it was a rebuttal against LordRahl. You are like the turtle that gets caught in the fishing net. No one wanted to catch or hurt the turtle; yet there he is in the net.

 

[Hygro]

I don't know why you threw the confederacy in there but...

What was at all Democratic about Japan and Germany? Is the rise of the Nazi party your example of Germany being Democratic, if so, how was Adolf's rise much different than Saddam's initial assention to power? How could you even begin to possibly construe that the underlying fundamentals that present us problems in Iraq now, didn't exist in Japan or Germany? I think it's absolutely amazing, that you think that whatever menail, petty, pathetic displays of goodwill between Japan/Germany, and America, would have weighed more heavily upon the minds of the people than the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or the merciless firebombings of Hamburg and Dresden. Perhaps you're not so familiar about what Germans thought about what we want to do to them post WWI? With all seriousness. What do you think was running through the minds of the people of Germany while we forced every able bodied person to clean up the dead in the concentration camps. "Hey, I bet these guys aren't so bad, they may have obliterated our cities, with no regard for civilian life, but don't you remember that show of goodwill all those years back?"

Again, this is why you can't take liberals seriously.

way to ignore the most important part of my thesis, which had to do with Nationality. Oda got it, so I know I didn't completely mangle my writing.

There are at least as many nationalities involved in Afghanistan; Pashtuns, Tadjiks, Uzbeks, Hazaras (who are Shia unlike the other who are Sunni), Baluchis etc.
And these break down along tribal lines. It could be important to tell the Afridis apart from the Ghaznis, even if they're all Pashtuns.
The historical precedent for them all living together peaceful like isn't that great.

It wasn't me in this thread calling Afghanistan a country of one Nation. But given wheat I read about the place, they seem more comfortable considering themselves one than Iraqis.

What did Iraq really need that pre-existing Democratic shape and form? I mean, look at the voter turn out. Was there some kind of missing link in the education system that completely shut the books on learning about democracy and freedom? Are these concepts, in the information age, alien to all of Iraqi's? If anything they were fortunate in that they had a multitude of bodies of law and government to construct what they wanted and what they felt would work for them.

Real, widespread Iraqi Nationalism. That's what was missing. Much of the country is tribal. most the remainder are sectarian along religious-ethnic lines. Few peoples first loyalty is to Iraq as a whole.

Germany, Japan, and the Confederacy on the other hand had virtually no tribal ties and very few sectarian ones. The Confederacy had a serious racial problem, which is one reason why reconstruction mostly failed as an instrument to bring freedom for all. It succeeded, however, in creating a stable, mostly democratic society.

Getting back to the "tradition of democracy" point, as Oda said it's not all or nothing. Iraq had much closer to nothing, Japan and Germany had something: a civic-minded, nationally united populace that understood rule of law, the nation-state, and civic duty over family duty, and a political idealogy that was favorable to western and liberal ideas.

Spoiler :

and this is my own speculation here, not my argument, I would not be surprised of an element of being a colonial or world power versus being a colony (Japan, Germany vs Iraq) had something to do with something

 

[Hygro]

John HSOG, perhaps I would show sympathy and be sadden. But I wont be sadden nor sympathetic if MobBoss gets hurt or killed. Then again, I dont show sympathy nor be sadden when someone whom harmed me gets hurt or killed.

ehhh maybe a moderator can read my post before the edit.

 

[Winner]

I am afraid NATO has embarked on an endeavour in which it can't succeed, not with present capabilities and strategy.

Afghanistan is slowly being 'Iraqized', terrorists and guerillas are beginning to use the same tactics the Iraqi insurgents use against the US forces.

I think our only chance is to use the Afghan ethnic diversity against the terrorists. In other words, team up with those most opposed to Islamist rule.

 

[Hygro]

I am afraid NATO has embarked on an endeavour in which it can't succeed, not with present capabilities and strategy.

Afghanistan is slowly being 'Iraqized', terrorists and guerillas are beginning to use the same tactics the Iraqi insurgents use against the US forces.

I think our only chance is to use the Afghan ethnic diversity against the terrorists. In other words, team up with those most opposed to Islamist rule.

Man you'll think of any excuse to attack Islam.

I think a good reason not to leave Iraq completely is because a lot of these now unemployed anti-american guerillas will go to Afghanistan, where we have a shot.

 

[Winner]

Man you'll think of any excuse to attack Islam.

What? In this particular post, I didn't even attempt to do so.

I think a good reason not to leave Iraq completely is because a lot of these now unemployed anti-american guerillas will go to Afghanistan, where we have a shot.

On the other hand, continued presence in Iraq only draws resources that could be used in Afghanistan, where the chances of winning are still much better.

Plus, I don't think that the bulk of Iraqi insurgents would move to Afghanistan. Individuals perhaps, but not large numbers of people.

I believe Afghanistan is the place where we have to win, Iraq is already lost.

 

[Verbose]

It wasn't me in this thread calling Afghanistan a country of one Nation. But given wheat I read about the place, they seem more comfortable considering themselves one than Iraqis.

I should have made clearer that I'm in agreement with you, that your points were valid regardless if applied to Iraq of Afghanistan.

What differs between these places would seem to be that the Afghanis have about two centuries experience of banding together to fight off an intruder. The Iraqis don't, not yet at least.

Otoh they happily fight each other the rest of the time. Pashtuns against Tadjiks against Uzbeks. Everyone fights the Hazara for being Shiite. The Pashtuns fight each other, Ghilzai vs. Afridi etc.
And you can get soundbites out of Afghanistan with proud Mujahedeen declaring that you can't buy an Afghani, but renting him for a while is fine, which just adds to the confusion.

It useed to be said that the monarchy was the only thing capable of holding the place together, symbolically at least, beside external preassure. Now the monarchy is gone and we have de facto independant warlords here there and everywhere. Some we are allied to, some we fight.

 

[stormbind]

There are two ways to police; by consent and by force.

The only long-term working solution is by consent.

Military victories are easy to achieve. Lasting peace is not. Please try thinking instead of thumping your chests.

 

[Ansar]

Military victories are easy to achieve.

This is true in Civ3!