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Afraid?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by jagwade, Aug 10, 2011.

  1. jagwade

    jagwade Chieftain

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    I was just wondering why the AI will decide if it's afraid versus guarded or some other status. It also seems that a Civ that is afraid is no benefit to you because they will not give into demands... actually come to think of it, no Civ has ever given into my demands no matter how dominant I've been. Is anyone able to shed some light on this?

    Thanks :p
     
  2. GoodSarmatian

    GoodSarmatian Jokerfied Western Male

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    Actually afraid civs have sometimes given in to my demands. I got gold from monty and resources from Ramses.
    I'm not sure what contributes to the afraid sattus, but I suppose it's military strength and the civs predisposition. I've only seen it with Aztecs, Egypt and Iroquois.
     
  3. MAHak2

    MAHak2 Chieftain

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    In my current game I moved my settler 4 tiles and settled 6 tiles away from Rome. I had 3 resources adjunt to my city so it growed fast. I built 2 scouts fast and got lucky with ruins, 1+ :c5citizen: , 1 tech and a spearman upgrade was among the things a got from ruins close by. This proved to intimidating for Ceasar and he summoned me to tell that he was afraid, being close to him i demanded he not settled near me, he agreed.
     
  4. MAGBaxter

    MAGBaxter Warlord

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    i seen it from spain after turn 1 before, then they built up a huge army.
     
  5. pspboy7

    pspboy7 Prince

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    Afraid can mean mostly one thing, you are ahead in military might compared to your neighbours. The good thing is that conquest is more than likely to go in your favor if you continue to be aggressive, the bad thing is that it brings out the aggression more easily in your neighbours as well. I find the Aztecs tend to be very afraid of me more often than not than any other civ. I the problem is because they almost always flat out refuse to upgrade their jaguars when I have pikes and knights hehe.
     
  6. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    I've seen civilizations be afraid only a few times, but it seemed pretty random and short-lived. It's usually in the early game, and most often when I've got an early lead, but one time Montezuma had the top score because he'd been spamming cities and kicking people's butts, but for some reason he was afraid of me. It didn't last very long and didn't appear to mean anything (like most of the diplomacy system); a moment later he was taunting me about how weak I was.

    The time a civ should be afraid of me is when I'm kicking their ass and taking their cities -- but of course they're never afraid then. At the higher levels, you might be able to get a settlement from an opponent right when the war starts to go against them, but once you start stomping them and taking their cities, they'll never give you anything.
     
  7. AmbientDarkness

    AmbientDarkness Chieftain

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    I have seen the AI become Afraid a few times as well, seemingly randomly. But in my most recent playthroughs of the New World scenario, I had AIs become afraid in two games. In both games, as a European power, I researched Gunpowder and then Royal Guards (which gives Musketeers) and quickly built up the strongest army in the world when all I had before Royal Guards was a wounded Caravel. Maybe the Afraid status is tied to building up a strong military very quickly?

    Also, in both games the leader who was afraid of me asked for a Declaration of Friendship, but they didn't give in to any demands. Otherwise they acted like a normal friendly civ would, giving full value on trades etc., but no demands. In the past, I've only been able to get minor gold off of truly friendly AIs, but never anything significant.
     
  8. Nightshades

    Nightshades Chieftain

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    In my current Emperor -game (my first), England became "afraid" after I got a larger army then they (which almost only consisted of incan slingers lol)
     
  9. razor436

    razor436 Chieftain

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    Sorry, but I think you made a mistake. You said you asked Ceasar to stop settling near you and he agreed? Nope, that can't be right.
     
  10. JWAT44

    JWAT44 Prince

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    he might be lower difficulty because when i started playing sometimes the ai would agree not to settle near me and say something like maybe you will learn to be more friendly in the future
     
  11. Trik

    Trik Chieftain

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    I think Civs with the 'afraid' status give you a better deal when trading, like when trading luxuries.

    Also i find betraying your word lowers the success rate of demands.
     
  12. headcase

    headcase Limit 1 Facepalm Per Turn

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    Playing on Prince, I have gotten this from Rome (neutral, not afraid, but I did have good mil). However he might have been deceptive (though he didn't settle near me afterwards). Also, they hate you for it even when they agree.
     
  13. Optional

    Optional Deity

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    I've had it only once. Korea was afraid, 'They fear your might' the diplo screen said. I was puzzled, because they were stronger than me. They were stronger than anybody else, in fact.
    While being afraid, Sejong was not willing to pay anything more for a lux than the usual rate, and wanted to pay only 10 gold for open borders. It didn't look like Korea's fear opened up any opportunities for me.
    Frankly, I don't know what the developers had in mind with this.
     
  14. TommyVern

    TommyVern Chieftain

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    Happened to me once, in the modern era of a King game. I was at war with Kamehameha, he eventually gave me the rest of his 6 or 7 cities for a peace treaty. At this point, the Incans, who had almost double my land size and a comparable army, showed an "afraid" status. Didn't last long thought, withing the next 10 or 15 turns they had an army on my border, ready to fight.

    Gotta the love the ciV diplomacy, smh.
     
  15. Dedrytus

    Dedrytus Warlord

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    I had a game when, I do not remember who, said that he is afraid but he DOW me 4 or 5 turns later :)
     
  16. Hamburger

    Hamburger Chieftain

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    In my most recent game. King level, highlands maps, ancient start, Inca. We were in the modern era and although Persia had a larger army than me, they were afraid. Probably because I just beat Japan into the ground after a backstab. Persia was also "guarded". Next turn they ask for a declaration of friendship and I was stoked because I wanted to focus my small army attention elsewhere so I said yes. Then the next turn they denounced me. So now I have a negative modifier with all the other civs because my "friends found reason to denounce you". I had to break out an old Jurassic Park quote, "Clever girl".

    TL;DR Darius is a jerk.
     
  17. Smokeybear

    Smokeybear Emperor

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    I never agree to friendship deals with any civ anymore, ever. They gain you absolutely nothing, and are always a total PITA. Wanna be my buddy? Ok. Now, give me the only Silver lux you have, lowering your happiness to the point your building construction slows down by 75%... oh, and give me 2,000 gold, even though you only have 500... oh, and go to war with me against these pointless pissants over here... oh, and if you don't meet any and all of my abjectly unreasonable demands, I will hate you forever, denounce you shortly, and probably backstab or at least gang-DoW you at the first chance I get. Buddies? Go stuff a pinata up yer cabooses, the lot of ya worthless two-faced beggars. End of story. :lol:

    PS: and that isn't even touching on all their other unalleviated downsides, like being totally worthless as war allies, dragging you into their wars then making peace without warning and denouncing YOU as a warmonger threatening world stability... grrrr.... could go on and on and on. I could make a mod which replicated the 'benefits' of having DoF's, without the bother of having to actually make any- it would just regularly subtract debilitating amounts of gold, luxuries and your good reputation with the rest of the world, and get everyone to hate you, ASAP. Luckily, I can't mod.
     
  18. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    Presumably there's some underlying power function derived from relative unit strength and population, and perhaps :c5production:, that causes an adversary to become afraid.

    The problem with the function is that it's pretty knife-edge in practice. My guess is that it's based upon proportions, and that it's fairly easy to briefly produce the appropriate proportions early in the game on lower difficulties. Then things invariably start leveling out proportionally due to the discontinuous nature of the :c5production: function, and AIs grow a pair.

    That seems consistent with the data we have of AIs briefly becoming "Afraid" in the early game and getting over it on lower levels, and never entering that status on higher levels. I'd also guess that past hostilities trump fear, such that AIs that you have thrashed in war but not eliminated will always hate you rather than fear you.
     
  19. Optional

    Optional Deity

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    Sounds plausible, Martin Alvito, but the example with Korea I posted happened on Immortal, and Korea was stronger than me according to my military advisor.

    You'd think that military strength plays a role, and I certainly think it still does, but it looks like a civ stronger than you can still be afraid of you in much the same way as a civ that is weaker than you can still go to war with you.

    In the XML files civs get number for what's called 'Major Civ Approach'. The possible approaches are Neutral, Friendly, Afraid, Guarded, Hostile and War. A civilization always picks one of these stances towards you. Sejong's number for 'Afraid' is a 7. His other numbers are lower, so 'Afraid' is a stance he'll quite easily take.
    All other civs have lower numbers for 'Afraid', except Montezuma, he's got a 7 as well. But Montezuma's got an even higher modifier for 'War'. It's a bit strange that an aggresive civ has such a high number for 'Afraid'; it seems out of character. All other warmonger civs have a very low number for 'Afraid'.

    I'm not saying that these numbers are the only factors, but they will of course play a big role, they're designed to do that.
     
  20. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    The demographics screen would have indicated that Iraq was stronger militarily than Great Britain in 1991, but I bet that Britain still could have taken Iraq without the US. A lot more goes into calculations of relative power (and therefore fear) than merely how many troops and weapons each side has. The ability to churn out materiel, draft citizens and so forth also matters.

    I think that your thesis that the .xmls have an influence is certainly correct. All that I'm suggesting is that more goes into the AI's calculation of relative power than the pointy sticks variable that the military advisor selects on (which is as it should be), but that the condition is knife-edge in practice and therefore the production of a unit or two is probably the cause that rapidly tips AIs back out of "Afraid".

    If we really wanted to settle the question, the best way to do it would probably be through FireTuner.
     

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