AG12 - Space Race (Sid)

Well, the question now is: what is more expensive? Having lux tax up a notch because of war weariness or having to pay for the Immortals? It may probably be the Immortals. That would mean that losing all units in an attack isn't a very big deal.

But we also have to keep the city for a turn.
 
I agree with playing on. I must say this has been one of the most fun games because it has been so difficult and I will be happy to play till the end. The most boring part of civ is cranking through to a win when you know it's over. I almost never finish solo games once I know I've won. So the plan is to buy at least the ottomans in and try to get to cavs. we are 2 techs from knights and 4 from cavs. What to build in the meantime??? I could just go to wealth and boats. The MA with otto will be expensive as were the alliances with germany and Babs so we don't have much $$ now but are making 108 gpt in the GA. An army would be huge but I don't see how we get it on offence. could dump large stack of pikes on a mountain and hope for one on defence but I'm not sure it's worth it.
 
Well I know I was attacked by about 10 rifles and a couple of cavs from the city. There are 28 left in a stack of 40 (I landed 2 pikes from the 42 on a mountain as a second diversion) so that is at least 12 units in the city. fortified rifles vs immortals. I just don't see that we have a chance. Wouldn't we be better off just keeping them in nearby waters and waiting to see if another civ makes a failed assult we could swoop in and take the depleted city.
 
Attacking Tenochtitlan is foolish. If we have 27 immortals and haven't attacked yet, we should bring back our boats and try to salvage as many as we can. That way, we can use them in the second attack and save us the trouble of some extra war weariness.

I did a test from the 950 save. Even if we had not declared war and done an ROP rape, there was no way we could have taken the city. There were a total of 13 rifles (all veterans, save 1), about 5 Cavs, and 2 catapults. What really killed us was promotions. Almost every Rifleman was elite by the time it got killed. I managed to kill off 9 riflemen and redline 3 and bring 2 cavs to 2/5 hp (they promoted too). Even attacking with the 5 pikemen I was unable to take the city or even destroy a unit. We simply underestimated the Aztec defenses and didn't take into account promotions.

Every rifleman that won twice promoted, as well as some that were only attacked once, thanks to the militaristic trait. The Aztec garisson will be no larger on our next attack, but they will likely have Replaceable parts. However, if we can keep them at war with the world, it will be unlikely that they get Replaceable parts on their own. I would sign alliances AND embargoes with all the civs save the Inca. The embargo will make it harder for the Aztecs to trade the turn they make peace (before we sign the civ back in) since they won't be able to use luxuries/resources to soften the cost of techs.

In conclusion, if mark hasn't finished his turns yet, I would pull out all our Immortals, buy Invention and trade it to the Inca for Monotheism (might as well, since we may not have saltpeter) and buy Gunpowder. If we have saltpeter, then, I would buy Metallurgy and Military tradition using renegotiating peace and gpt. We actually might not be able to get past Metallurgy with our gpt, so selling our saltpeter (even if it's our last source) may be a good idea to get gpt, which will allow us to research MT. Remember, we have libraries in every city, so we can afford to research if we can't buy. Since we would have no saltpeter, we could research it in 20 turns (starting a few prebuilds for cavs a few turns before) and get back our saltpeter with the discover of cavs.

Of course, if we can afford it, buying all the way to cavs would be better.



Edit: Oops, maybe I shouldn't have done that test. I thought that Mark had attacked until we had 27 left and decided it was futile. Sorry if I gave out information we shouldn't have known.
 
Well, it appears that we all want to continue. Good news :)

Mark1031, I would probably attack (following Greebley's reasoning it's not that bad) and build mainly horses (to be upgraded to cavalry). But if we have cities without markets/courthouses/harbors, then that has a priority.

Don't forget to renegotiate peace when making gpt deals ;)

EDIT: Grrr... Yom is probably right. And sensible. But you gave us some spoiler info with that rop rape tale!
 
We are posting so fast I can't Keep up. I have not played since the IT after landing. I am sure the attack will fail just from what I saw in the city but I will do what the majority want although it seems we are evenly split.

Yom Mark : Retreat

Greebley Aggie: Attack

EDIT:

Yom Mark Aggie: Retreat

Greebley: Attack

OK we will do a Dunkirk. We can safely get everyone back on the boats. Who knows maybe it will be said this was our finest hour.
 
Yom, you indeed gave away info. But Mark1031 knows that the situation is very difficult and only a very favorable RNG will help him. So the issue is not that we probably won't take the city. It's more the one you decribed perfectly.

EDIT: Mark, just do what you think is best. Sorry for the post speed. The game just got very exciting ;) We agree upon the Aztec dogpile though!
 
I feel the Immortals aren't worth keeping. We will want to land on the mountain and not next to the city. We can keep some for defense, they probably won't be going next time. If we disband them until we are spending 0 on units, do we have enough for this? We will want all our money to get to Mil Tradition. Knights don't seem sufficient, their attack is no better than the immortals.

Landing on the mountain will really help as when the units attack us they don't stay in the city and we get double defense.

I think you are right on the promotions Yom. We should give all defenders 5 hp even if they have less to start with when we calculate.
 
Mark with the strange and mysterious number following his name takes command of the backward and forgotten Persian empire. He sees we have amassed a great fleet of oared vessels and sword wielding warriors. Our great armies are confused and frightened as they pass tremendous metal ships possessing great guns. What are these powerful vessels? He has a great plan to gain this and other knowledge and one fell swoop by capturing the city of all knowledge--Tenochtitian.

960: looking at the situation it would delay our landing by one turn to take Yom's approach so I declare on the Aztecs at the start of the turn.
Buy in Germany for 10gpt and 193gp. Buy in Babs for 17gpt and 338gp. That's all we can afford. Land the diversionary force one turn ahead of time to avoid confrontation with a frigate. Move our main strike force forward. A few things complete and I skim some workers off of size 12 cities for railroading. Capture Aztec worker on our island with a regular warrior.

IT Aztec frigate attacks and sinks our secondary diversion galley instead of our closer empty galleys. No threats to our main force. But are diversionary force of four pikes is decimated by cavalry taking one with them.

970: continue moving the main strike force forward for landing next turn. Watch a lot of Babylonian and German troops converge on the lone Aztec City on our island. Start coliseums in our core cities as factory/bank prebuilds.

IT: not much. Thankfully no frigate attacks on our main force.

980: We land. I divert one galley of two pikes to land on the mountains as a weak second diversion.

IT: Not good :cry: . We are attacked out of Teno by about ten rifles and 4 cavs. We lose all but two battles but one win is with an immortal to trigger our golden age. Apparently, our great plans will have to wait as there's no way we can take the city much less hold it.

990: Plan B: the evacuation of Tenochtitian. WW is at 35% already. we move to 30% lux. Load all immortals into regular galleys first and begin retreat to Babylonian waters. Buy in Ottomans for 225 gp and 30 gpt. We can now do gpt with the ottomans. However, it is almost all of our gpt for invention. Research is cheaper. Invention in 13 @ +10/turn. Get 90 gp for our map from Germany.

IT renew spices for ivory/incense + 95g with Ottos.

1000: Up sci. Invention in 8.


IT Lose 2 galleys to frigates. Ottomans haveTOW infantry and in the MA.


1010: Retreat galleys further. switch more cities to wealth. merge some workers.

IT lose 1 galley. Ottos start UN and Manhattan.

1020: continue retreat.

IT: Incans are gone.

1030: zzz

IT Germany Babs in MP.

1040: zzz

IT: Germany declares on the Ottos

1050: zzz

Well I don't know how we pull this out. I kept the immortals on ships that are fortified in Babylonian waters. I did this only on the chance hope that the other civs would make a concerted effort on the Aztecs and if they did we would have troops there to potentially come in and take Tenochtitian. It ain't gonna happen though I really think this is our only hope. There isn't going to be sufficient time to get to cavs, buildup troops, ship them over, and take the city. The Ottomans will be rampaging over Alpha Centaury by then. We have invention in 2 and it might be worth trying to buy gunpowder. We can trade gpt with the Ottomans.
 
Got it. We are only having 33 gpt in our Golden Age and have 45 units for which we pay upkeep. Half of the cities is on wealth, because we lack projects to work on. The Aztecs have not taken any beating yet as the world is distracted by other wars. Hmmm....

EDIT: Well, we can get more income with a bit of MM-ing, so that's not terribly bad. What now? I think that we have no choice and should build horseman, to be upgraded when we get cavalry. Imho we can't wait for Mil. Tradition to come in. I also am torn what to do with the immortals. I do understand that we can use them when the Aztecs crumble, but we need the galleys for our 2nd wave with stronger units and the immortals cost us a lot of money. I will play after a discussion.

ROSTER:
Greebley (holiday from July 24th to August 9th)
betazed-----skipped until further notice
Mark1031
Aggie-------up
Yom--------on deck
 
Yes I waited during my turns in case ottoman tanks started crushing the Aztecs but I saw nothing on the main Island. I guess you could transport them home and disband to make horses. I just don't think we will have time to do all that horses-> cavs. The only hope is I think if the other civs just start to crush the Aztecs but we can't control that.
 
I don't know if the AI will be able to establish a beach head. Even if they do, grabbing the capitol seems difficult to time. My guess is that the immortals won't be able to do anything, but that is just a guess.

Lets see 14 rifles all elite is 14*5 = 70 hp *14.1 def = 987
987/16 = 62 knights + 4 for RNG badness = 66

So the question is; will 66 knights take longer to build than it will take us to get to cavalry? Probably not.

Another option is to go for the knights, but then continue toward cavalry in research(After we upgrade). Having muskets would be useful anyway. We then see how close we get. If it is a few steals away, it might be worth taking the chance and going for cav. Upgrading knight to Cav is cheap enough that we could do it that easily enough.

One question is: How late can we get the GLib and still have a chance to win? Not sure.

Unfortunately, my SID experience is insufficient to get a good idea what to do here. Can we get to Mil Trad before Launch? Can we build enough knights?

Maybe we should beat on the Germans and get 3-4 armies? Might work. I would still want knight armies though.
 
IHT: First thing I do is lowering the science rate from 30% to 20%. We now make 87 gpt and still have invention in 2. I rush the market in Tyre and emphasize our wealth cities on commerce. And now we make 94 gpt.

IT: Tho Ottomans bombard cavalry with planes in our territory. They also capture Nampo'o from the Germans.
Tyre: market->temple. Hamadan, Ergili: courthouse->wealth.

Turn 1 (1060 AD) I order the galleys to sail back to home.

IT: Greebley's suggestion is a good one, but I see about 200 German units in our lands...
We discover Invention and start reseaching

Turn 2 (1070 AD) By renegotiating peace I buy Monoteism from Scandinavia for 57 gpt.
At 30% science we get Chivalry in 5.

IT: An Aztec Privateer sinks a galleu (empty one). We finish our first 7 horses.

Turn 3 (1080 AD) Nothing much.

IT: The Ottomans finish the UN.

Turn 4 (1090 AD) :sleep:

IT: Two Aztec privateers sink galleys and immortals. The Ottomans and Aztecs make peace :(

Turn 5 (1100 AD) I sign a new MA vs the Aztecs with the Ottomans for 33 gpt...
I lower science a notch and we need another 2 turns for Chivalry.

Turn 6, 7 (1120 AD) We have 31 horses and I switch a number of cities back to wealth. The Ottomans tanks and TOW's cross our territory in fear, knowing that we have dangerous horses and immortals running around :p

IT: The Ottomans and Germans sign peace. We discover Chivalry and science goes to lone scientist. We need money to upgrade horses.
The Ottomans finish the Manhattan Project [nuke]

Turn 8 (1130 AD) :sleep:

IT: Galley sinks an Aztec frigate. Ottomans and Vikings sign peace. Germany declares on the Ottomans.

Turn 9 (1140 AD) :sleep:

IT: The Ottomans take German Talco on our continent. Babylon starts Hoover.

Turn 10 (1150 AD) I cancel the ROP with Germany, hoping that we will be in our lands immediately after getting kicked out.

Only the Ottomans are in the Modern Age. Which is very bad, because we don't need one runaway civ.
 
We probably should join the Ottomans in a war vs the Germans. To leaderfish, as Greebley suggests. Our immortals may be home soon if they galleys are kicked out of German waters.

ROSTER:
Greebley----on deck (holiday from July 24th to August 9th)
betazed-----skipped until further notice
Mark1031
Aggie
Yom--------up
 
I got it, but I'm up in 4 sgs so I'll need my full 48.

Edit: And are you sure we can go up against 200+ units? Sounds hopeless to me :(.
 
Yom, we will be helped by the Ottomans. What can I say? We should do something. I also had difficulty to decide what to do. Advance towards Military Tradition or not? Build a lot of horses and then knights or not? It's not easy and the game is discouraging at times. We are talking about slim chances here. All in all it appears best to go for leaders and an army or two. We can't fill up these armies until we are on the Aztec lands (galleys can't carry a fully loaded army). Yup, that too sounds difficult if not impossible.
 
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