Age od Discovery(world map)

[Nexxo]

After looking the map over and the settings, I have some comments regarding the scenario.

1. Having all of the powers needing to research Gunpowder before getting virtually any ship beyond a curragh or canoe, except for China, along with any gunpowder unit does not seem at all realistic. By 1490, gunpowder was a major factor in European warfare, and aside from the English holdouts for the long bow, a country without gunpowder units was in extremely serious trouble. The fire of the Spanish musketeers at the Battle of Pavia in 1525 is credited with being a decisive factor in the Spanish victory, while artillery fire was a major factor in the French victory at Ravenna in 1512. Having the New World civilizations, the Bantus, and the Japanese research it would appear more than reasonable.

2. The Duchy of Milan was controlled by Spain following the Battle of Pavia in 1525 through the end of the War of the Spanish Succession, when it came under the control of the Austrian Hapsburgs.

3. On the map, you have Desert, Tundra, and Mountains checked as impassable, but you also allow for colonies on them. Are they impassable for all units or should just be impassable for wheeled units?

4. The map has the major portion of Asiatic Russia as mountains, when in fact, it is Taiga, or coniferous forests. Under Peter the Great in the early 1700s, the Russians mounted a massive and successful effort to colonize the area and reached the Bering Sea, where Vitus Bering died in 1741 on the Komandorski Islands, after having reached the south coast of Alaska.

5. Given the scientific and technological advances during the period 1490 to 1750, it would seem reasonable to allow for Scientific Great Leaders to appear, which presently is not possible. To get Scientific Leaders, you do need to have the Science Age box checked for Leader.

6. The period from 1490 to 1750 was also a period of nearly constant warfare for one or more of the European powers, and as such produced a host of military leaders. These include one of the greatest military leaders of all time in Gustavus Adolphus Vasa the Second of Sweden and also Charles the Twelfth, along with Maurice of Nassau and Menno Coehoorn for the Dutch, Oliver Cromwell and John Churchill (the Duke of Marlborough) for the English, Prince Eugene for the Austrians, Gonsalvo de Cordoba for the Spanish, and a host of others. Great sea fighters would include Francis Drake and Robert Blake for the English, Martin Tromp and Michael de Ruyter (one of the few admirals in history to get the better of the English) for the Dutch, Don John (or Juan) of Austria for the Spanish, and Khareddin Barbarossa for the Berbers/Ottomans. I will work on getting more accurate military and scientific leader lists for you.

Note: I am a military historian along with a naval historian, plus I have taught World Geography at the college level.

I put mountains on Asiatic part of Russia because I don't won't that civs who can build colonist colonize that area. If they can colonize that then it would be lot less overseas voyages.

Deserts and mountains are impassable. Desert because Ottomans could easy go down from North Africa and destroy barbarian civs there. Mountains are impassable because of strategy and realism. It would be stupid if let say somebody invade India over Himalaya mountains.

I know about Duchy of Milan and Naples that they were controlled by Spanish, but I want to make some struggles on Italian soil. Maybe I could change that but I don't think that others have any chance then. Spanish would destroy them with ease.

Thank you for report. I need to make some changes and I would love to have accurate military and scientific leaders list.

 

[smirnoff]

Very Good Looking interesting Scenario , I care to try it

 

[Nexxo]

Hey thanks buddy. Hope you like it

This now is just a simple version but I will(at least for colonist civs first) add units from imperator1961 16 to 18 century or some Sandris sets.

 

[timerover51]

I put mountains on Asiatic part of Russia because I don't won't that civs who can build colonist colonize that area. If they can colonize that then it would be lot less overseas voyages.

Deserts and mountains are impassable. Desert because Ottomans could easy go down from North Africa and destroy barbarian civs there. Mountains are impassable because of strategy and realism. It would be stupid if let say somebody invade India over Himalaya mountains.

I can follow your reasoning with respect to the mountains and desert, and I can see your point. Given that historically, the Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans were quite insular and did not attempt any colonization, that did leave Siberia open to the Russians, where in the game, that would not be the case. The Ottomans also were more interested in conquests in Europe that anything in Africa, so impassable desert helps out there. Russia does have access to the Northeast Passage through the Arctic Ocean if needed. I will need to check if you have Arkhangelsk on the map for Russia, if not, it should be added.

You are doing a good job at balancing map accuracy verses what is needed to keep the game more historical. I commend you for that.

I will keep working in the naval units and leaders list and keep you posted on those areas. I should be able to come up with some leaders for Milan and Naples from some of my books, but for Science leaders, I might interpret "Science" in a pretty broad sense.

What is your thinking with respect to the issue of Gunpowder research?

 

[Nexxo]

I can follow your reasoning with respect to the mountains and desert, and I can see your point. Given that historically, the Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans were quite insular and did not attempt any colonization, that did leave Siberia open to the Russians, where in the game, that would not be the case. The Ottomans also were more interested in conquests in Europe that anything in Africa, so impassable desert helps out there. Russia does have access to the Northeast Passage through the Arctic Ocean if needed. I will need to check if you have Arkhangelsk on the map for Russia, if not, it should be added.

You are doing a good job at balancing map accuracy verses what is needed to keep the game more historical. I commend you for that.

I will keep working in the naval units and leaders list and keep you posted on those areas. I should be able to come up with some leaders for Milan and Naples from some of my books, but for Science leaders, I might interpret "Science" in a pretty broad sense.

What is your thinking with respect to the issue of Gunpowder research?

Idea about Gunpowder is great. Actually there is good naval units from middle ages Medieval galley which could be build until gunpowder is research. It should be only coastal units like galleass and is not build for ocean voyages.

Arkhangelsk is not on map because I want to create in Russia need for port which was long wanted dream of Peter the Great which come into true by capturing the Azov.
What do you think about that. Should I give Arkhangelsk to Russia or maybe put it on map and give it to some other nation?

 

[timerover51]

Idea about Gunpowder is great. Actually there is good naval units from middle ages Medieval galley which could be build until gunpowder is research. It should be only coastal units like galleass and is not build for ocean voyages.

Arkhangelsk is not on map because I want to create in Russia need for port which was long wanted dream of Peter the Great which come into true by capturing the Azov.
What do you think about that. Should I give Arkhangelsk to Russia or maybe put it on map and give it to some other nation?

The British explorer, Richard Chancellor, reached Arkhangelsk in 1553, when it was already under the control of the Russians. Based on that, I would say put in on the map as owned by the Russians.

 

[Nexxo]

Ok, then I will add that city to Russia.

 

[timerover51]

In going through the naval units, I noticed something that I should have mentioned earlier. All of your units cost 1 population to build. Is that what you intend?

 

[Nexxo]

Yes, I use that in all scenario because cities grow to big until they start loosing population and it make more realistic.

 

[timerover51]

Have you played this all the way through? I was at 1518 AD, playing as the Dutch, when I lost all unit control, had no unit control buttons, and the game would not quit, end when I resigned, or let me start a new game. Finally had to do a hard reboot to get out of it. Have you run into this.

There are some other issues as well, but the loss of control problem is the biggest. I have never had that happen before.

 

[Nexxo]

No that never happened to me and I didn't have time to test for more then few turns but I know that all units work because I put them all on map in testing and if one of them didn't work, the game wouldn't let me play. Some time has happened with some scenarios that I get message windows encounter problems and I must quit but that happened mostly when I have full HD.

 

[timerover51]

No that never happened to me and I didn't have time to test for more then few turns

I thought that might be the case, as the box for the Harbor to allow Water Trade was not checked, so that once you reached the New World, you had no access to any resources still in Europe. This meant no Colonial Capital and severely reduces initial unit builds. Also, no unit upgrades if the upgraded unit needs European resources initially.

As I was tired, I forgot that I needed an unchanged .biq to post for the rest of the community to take a look at and see why the game stopped working. I made some changes that I thought might correct the problem. I will try it again and see what happens.

One other thing, I run a check on the number of cities on the map using Steph's editor, and the map comes with 284 cities. The game has a built in limit of 512, and given that the Americas, Sub-Sahara Africa, and Australia, along with parts of Asia, so that limit is going to be hit, since the victory conditions is 25% of the world under one country's domination. With the Iroquois, Aztecs (somewhat), Inca, and Bantus having pretty much no opposition for a while, the AI is going to run wild building cities for them, and that is going to be a problem. I have worked up some means of slowing down their explosive expansion, but I still need to see if it is going to work.

 

[Nexxo]

Well, water trade was removed because speed of turns. It is big map and it would slow scenario if water trade was on.

 

[timerover51]

Well, water trade was removed because speed of turns. It is big map and it would slow scenario if water trade was on.

You have 31 civilizations, 284 pre-positioned cities, and what looks like a very large number of raging Barbarians. Even without water trade activated, the game turn was running somewhere between 5 and 6 minutes very early in the game. Once the AI nations start warring on each other, and the European colonial powers start warring on the New World and African natives, each other, and the rest of the World's civilizations, it is going to get a LOT slower. You only have trade between harbors to deal with, and not also air travel which can really slow things down.

Without water trade, until the 5 colonial powers get cities established, and a large number of roads built, they are going to be restricted to building in any new settlement in the New World, Sub-Sahara Africa, Australia, and all of the various islands, the following units: Spearman, Longbowman, and Curragh, along with workers and Colonists. That is it. That means building and bringing to the new settlements units from Europe, which takes turn time to build them and ship them. All the while, the Natives are going to be building cities and units to defend them. I do not see how, under those circumstances, a Domination victory is possible for any civilization. It will have to be a Victory Point win only.

Also, without water trade, your Colonial Capital, which requires the Colonial Nations resource to build, is useless, unless you have some additional Colonial Nations resources scattered about the board. If you do have some scattered about the board, there is nothing to prevent any of the other civilizations from building it as well, once they have obtained Colonization by either research or trading for it. I do not think that is your idea, or is it?

I have run into some other bugs, like the English building the Temple of the Sun after getting Ritual Sacrifice and Blood Cult from presumably the Aztecs, which is really odd, along with the Dutch, who I am playing not being able to build the Navigation School or Luther's 95 Theses. The Golden Age for the Portuguese has them building every Wonder possible, and succeeding in getting them first, to include Magellan's Voyage, to go with Dias' Voyage. There is one other thing that I have to check on by asking about it in the main forum.

 

[eric_A]

Nexxo:
I gave it a try as Britain:

Game ended too soon, 1587 when Persia hit 100,000 vps.

The endless foreign advisor pop-ups make it almost unplayable, it would
be nice if someone could make a patch to get rid of those so you could
hit enter, walk away and come back later and all the AIs would be done
their turns

I was really surprised when Austria was eliminated by the "rampaging Chinese"!
You might want to make the overland route across Asia a bit slower.

I think the Maya were a shadow of their former selves by 1490, their civ started
to fall apart after 1000 AD so you could eliminate them.

Could not build a colonial capital in any of my colonies, it would only let
me build it in England.

Of the AI civs, only the Dutch built a lot of colonies in the new world.
By the end Portugual and Spain each had only 1 colony and France
had none. You might want to give the barbarians war canoes instead of
pirate ships, I think a lot of caravels got sunk early in the game.

New world resources should only be found in the new world, but I
was able to grow Tobacco in Wales. Old world resources such as horses
should be removed from the new world.


Check out my "Years of Rice and Salt" scenario, feel free to steal any
ideas, such as tech tree. In it the Islamic civs have a different path than
the Christians or the Far East.

 

[timerover51]

Nexxo:
I gave it a try as Britain:

I am working on tweaking the scenario to Eric, so thank you for your feedback.

Game ended too soon, 1587 when Persia hit 100,000 vps.

I will look at that, as Persia should not be able to get that many vps. I suspect that they were building the various mines for treasure, which in theory, they should not be able to do. The Victory Point win does not surprise me. A Domination win is going to be very difficult.

The endless foreign advisor pop-ups make it almost unplayable, it would be nice if someone could make a patch to get rid of those so you could hit enter, walk away and come back later and all the AIs would be done their turns

I agree that they are a headache. I think that it is partly because everyone is in contact with everyone else. In the game I was playing as Dutch, the Japanese signed a mutual protection pact with the Duchy of Milan, no less. I am working on that. I suspect that severing a few road links will cut that down drastically.

I was really surprised when Austria was eliminated by the "rampaging Chinese"! You might want to make the overland route across Asia a bit slower.

Hmm, that is a surprise. I will look at it, but again, I suspect cutting some road links will slow things down a bit in that respect.

I think the Maya were a shadow of their former selves by 1490, their civ startedcto fall apart after 1000 AD so you could eliminate them.

The problem if you take out the Mayans is that the Aztecs are going to run wild expanding. I hate to think what the Bantu are doing in Africa with no opposition.

Could not build a colonial capital in any of my colonies, it would only let me build it in England.

There is no provision for water trade, so you cannot build the colonial capital in any other area except something connected by road to your primary capital. Nexxo was having problems with the game running slow with water trade, so eliminated it. I am working on solving that problem, as where his computer ran slow with water trade, mine basically stopped.

Of the AI civs, only the Dutch built a lot of colonies in the new world. By the end Portugual and Spain each had only 1 colony and France had none. You might want to give the barbarians war canoes instead of pirate ships, I think a lot of caravels got sunk early in the game.

The Pirate ships in the game have a +2 hit point bonus, which is the cause of the problem. I took that away and things have improved a bit. Also, I have boosted the caravel a bit as well.

New world resources should only be found in the new world, but I was able to grow Tobacco in Wales. Old world resources such as horses should be removed from the new world.

You have a point there, but with respect to horses, that is part of another issue. The Tobacco in Wales needs to go.

Check out my "Years of Rice and Salt" scenario, feel free to steal any ideas, such as tech tree. In it the Islamic civs have a different path than the Christians or the Far East.

I will look at it, but any major changes need to be made by Nexxo, I am mainly working on tweaking the game.

 

[Nexxo]

You have 31 civilizations, 284 pre-positioned cities, and what looks like a very large number of raging Barbarians. Even without water trade activated, the game turn was running somewhere between 5 and 6 minutes very early in the game. Once the AI nations start warring on each other, and the European colonial powers start warring on the New World and African natives, each other, and the rest of the World's civilizations, it is going to get a LOT slower. You only have trade between harbors to deal with, and not also air travel which can really slow things down.

Without water trade, until the 5 colonial powers get cities established, and a large number of roads built, they are going to be restricted to building in any new settlement in the New World, Sub-Sahara Africa, Australia, and all of the various islands, the following units: Spearman, Longbowman, and Curragh, along with workers and Colonists. That is it. That means building and bringing to the new settlements units from Europe, which takes turn time to build them and ship them. All the while, the Natives are going to be building cities and units to defend them. I do not see how, under those circumstances, a Domination victory is possible for any civilization. It will have to be a Victory Point win only.

Also, without water trade, your Colonial Capital, which requires the Colonial Nations resource to build, is useless, unless you have some additional Colonial Nations resources scattered about the board. If you do have some scattered about the board, there is nothing to prevent any of the other civilizations from building it as well, once they have obtained Colonization by either research or trading for it. I do not think that is your idea, or is it?

I have run into some other bugs, like the English building the Temple of the Sun after getting Ritual Sacrifice and Blood Cult from presumably the Aztecs, which is really odd, along with the Dutch, who I am playing not being able to build the Navigation School or Luther's 95 Theses. The Golden Age for the Portuguese has them building every Wonder possible, and succeeding in getting them first, to include Magellan's Voyage, to go with Dias' Voyage. There is one other thing that I have to check on by asking about it in the main forum.

I could make resource that can see only central American civs to build its own wonders. That will work for all wonders and it be able to do that only Portugal can build Dias voyage to gain gold age. Also I could reduce number of cities from start.
Colonial capital will also work an this idea. Resource in New world only available to those civs who are colonials.

 

[Nexxo]

Nexxo:
I gave it a try as Britain:

Game ended too soon, 1587 when Persia hit 100,000 vps.

The endless foreign advisor pop-ups make it almost unplayable, it would
be nice if someone could make a patch to get rid of those so you could
hit enter, walk away and come back later and all the AIs would be done
their turns

I was really surprised when Austria was eliminated by the "rampaging Chinese"!
You might want to make the overland route across Asia a bit slower.

I think the Maya were a shadow of their former selves by 1490, their civ started
to fall apart after 1000 AD so you could eliminate them.

Could not build a colonial capital in any of my colonies, it would only let
me build it in England.

Of the AI civs, only the Dutch built a lot of colonies in the new world.
By the end Portugual and Spain each had only 1 colony and France
had none. You might want to give the barbarians war canoes instead of
pirate ships, I think a lot of caravels got sunk early in the game.

New world resources should only be found in the new world, but I
was able to grow Tobacco in Wales. Old world resources such as horses
should be removed from the new world.


Check out my "Years of Rice and Salt" scenario, feel free to steal any
ideas, such as tech tree. In it the Islamic civs have a different path than
the Christians or the Far East.

China destroy Austria? Maybe I didn't remove communications trading. If they don't know that you exist they won't attack you.

Yeah, I should remove pirate ships for barbarians because they sure destroying lot of ships travels through Atlantic.

Also some resources which should be in new world will be removed.

I need to make some changes and thank you for report.

 

[timerover51]

I am working on a solution to the water trade issue. I found out what my problem with respect to running the game is. I am using a 1.6 Ghz Dell laptop, with 1.5 Gigs of memory. Loading the game without water trade running took a couple of minutes, and when I checked it with Windows Task Manager, Civ3 was using between 93% to 97% of the CPU. When I checked water trade, game loading essentially stopped, with CPU usage at 98%+. That large map, with that many cities, and all of the barbarian camps, is almost an overload for my Dell laptop. And a few cities and more units, and it overloads.

What I am working on now is a way of getting water trade using a combination of the Navigation School and Commercial Dock, with limits on the number of Commercial Docks being built, and who can build them. You may need to cut back on the number of cities in the game. I have been doing that so that I can get the game to run on my Windows laptop. Problem is, on that computer, I am having problems seeing any of the terrain overlays or buildings, so I am switching back and forth between two computers to do editing.

One question. Why so many Barbarian camps? Those use up CPU space like mad. You had some in the middle of the Sahara with no where to do, and others in the mountains. I took out a bunch of them as well, along with some cities. Most of your Mongol cities in Siberia were built by the Russians during the 1800s and while building the Trans-Siberian Railway. When I get done with cleaning things up so it will run properly on my computer, I will send you the .biq file for you to review.

 

[Nexxo]

Yes, those barbarian camps should be removed because they can't walk across desert or mountains.
And cities are too many in some areas so that too will be reduced.