Age of Mythology

The empty IDs sounds like your best bet, you could just change unused/redundant promotions to have the same effects as some of your existing ones, how much space would that clear up? (provided it works)
 
Question: Will you be able to change the promotion cap when the DLL comes out? Also, I heard it should be coming out soon, is this true?
 
Question: Will you be able to change the promotion cap when the DLL comes out?

I just don't know. The problem is that we just don't know why it's breaking. The fact that it caps at 200 implies that it's an artificial cap put in by the programmers (probably just one array in there that's explicitly set to have 200 elements), since any cap tied to something more intrinsic would be a power of 2 (256, 65536, and so on), while anything tied to memory limitations wouldn't be a nice round number.

Also, it's not crashing, it's just giving everything any promotion with an ID greater than 200 automatically. That implies that it's just a function of a loop inside the spawn-unit mechanism that's being asked to go higher than it was designed.

Now, if it IS just a simple thing where we could easily change that 200 to a 400, then sure, it'd be really easy to fix. Of course, if it were that easy, they'd have fixed it themselves, since this is hardly the first mod to run into that issue, but maybe they just haven't paid any attention at all to us modders and our issues. Frankly, that'd be even more worrisome.

Also, I heard it should be coming out soon, is this true?

"Soon", in the context they were using it, would still be several months away (which was explicitly stated in a later post). My guess is three to six months (probably closer to the long end) before we get the DLL, and another six after that before you start to see mods that really leverage the extra functionality. So by next Christmas you might start to see FfH-type total conversion mods.

What I'm hoping for, honestly, are "black box" mods. That is, someone adds a few new stubs to the DLL, and everyone else just uses those straight, without messing around in the code ourselves. A good example of this in Lua was the Building Resources mod; a LOT of mods, my own included, used that mod and the XML it requires without ever going into the exact logic of how it worked. So if someone figures out how to fix the promotion limit early on, I'll be able to take advantage of that even if I don't end up digging into the DLL myself for a while.
 
Well if thats the case, could you just simply change existing useless promotions to have identical effects to some of your custom ones and use those instead? Since the id numbers would be the same. Another idea, although crude, would be to try to rig up Homefield Advantage and Rookie to show up as 201 and 202 since every unit would have them anyway

I could see having anti myth and anti psi fused together in the base mod, since AoM and AoA are so far spaced apart that the other half of the promotion wouldn't effect the other mods gameplay in any significant way
 
I played with the mod a bit (not too much as it crashes pretty soon, but not through any fault on your side: I'm playing on a mac with Wine which is quite stable under normal conditions, but not so much with mods enabled. I haven't gotten around to enabling mods for regular mac play).

Anyway, apart from the save/load problem which you've allready fixed, I only found some minor elements:
- Any reason there's no 'Random' button for selecting gods (either completely random or random within a Pantheon?). I usually play with everything random, and as we don't know the surroundings before picking a god, I might as well pick that randomly as well. Now I had to resort to the oldfashioned way of using my dice.

- I think I'd prefer the tooltips on the tech-screen to be less numerical ie. Instead of "The maximum level of your primary level in your capital is now +1" it'd be easier if it just gave the name of the building ("You can now aqcuire a Church through favor in your capital", or something like that).
 
- Any reason there's no 'Random' button for selecting gods (either completely random or random within a Pantheon?).

Random is the default. Hit the selection button without selecting a god, and it'll ask "Do you want to pick a random major god?". If you've already clicked a god, just click the selection button and choose "No" on the popup dialog; it'll reset everything, and you can try again. I know, it's not really as clear as it could be, but it's there. I didn't really want a separate "pick random god" button, although I could be convinced otherwise.

Now, for quite a while I was working on a pantheon-random option (pick a random god within the Greek pantheon) by clicking on the pantheon instead of clicking on a specific god. There were a few technical issues at the time that I hadn't quite fixed, so then I considered adding a fifth god button to each pantheon for this sort of random choice. But it just seemed a bit pointless; the major gods within each pantheon would be so different from each other that it felt like people who wanted randomness just wouldn't care about which pantheon that randomness was in. But I could add this back in fairly easily now that I've got a functional baseline.

- I think I'd prefer the tooltips on the tech-screen to be less numerical ie. Instead of "The maximum level of your primary level in your capital is now +1" it'd be easier if it just gave the name of the building ("You can now aqcuire a Church through favor in your capital", or something like that).

It was theoretically possible, depending on exactly which techs you take, to reach a later +1 before getting the earlier one. (It might not be possible with the current tech layout, I haven't checked it lately. I did a lot of rearranging in the last version to reduce this sort of thing.) If that can happen, then what do I do? If it's at all possible to do this, then I basically have three options:
1> Allow you to jump straight from Shrine to Cathedral by getting the later tech (which'd list as "can acquire a Cathedral" in the tech tree), instead of forcing you to take the Shrine -> Church one first.
2> Have the tooltips not match reality, to where it might say Cathedral for the later tech but you only get the Shrine -> Church upgrade, and when you take the one that says Church you get the Church -> Cathedral upgrade.
3> Have the tech tree list all three techs that boost a level to say Church, and then once you pick one of the three it lists them as Cathedral, and so on.

None of those are desirable, so I went with the current setup. Now, if I can guarantee that it's utterly impossible to ever beeline past the early increase to get the later one, then yes, I could do what you say. It'd be a little more work to insert the appropriate text keys, but not much.

If you're objecting to using numbers for the levels, then I'd assume you'd also prefer not to see numbers for the growth rates as well. Once upon a time I had a few techs that added or subtracted 2 growth, so the numbers were necessary. Those are gone and now it's always +1 or -1, so it'd be trivial to just drop the numbers entirely for that.
 
Random is the default. Hit the selection button without selecting a god, and it'll ask "Do you want to pick a random major god?". If you've already clicked a god, just click the selection button and choose "No" on the popup dialog; it'll reset everything, and you can try again. I know, it's not really as clear as it could be, but it's there. I didn't really want a separate "pick random god" button, although I could be convinced otherwise.
Ah, that was indeed not clear. If you don't want to place a button, maybe a text to explain that if you don't pick a god, you get a random one?

Now, for quite a while I was working on a pantheon-random option (pick a random god within the Greek pantheon) by clicking on the pantheon instead of clicking on a specific god. There were a few technical issues at the time that I hadn't quite fixed, so then I considered adding a fifth god button to each pantheon for this sort of random choice. But it just seemed a bit pointless; the major gods within each pantheon would be so different from each other that it felt like people who wanted randomness just wouldn't care about which pantheon that randomness was in. But I could add this back in fairly easily now that I've got a functional baseline.
I don't think I'd use a random within pantheon button, not if there's an option for completely random. I can think of a few use-cases, but they feel very contrived (`I really want to have building favor x3 and priest favor x2, but I can't make up my mind about which Shinto diety I should pick`)

It was theoretically possible, depending on exactly which techs you take, to reach a later +1 before getting the earlier one. (It might not be possible with the current tech layout, I haven't checked it lately. I did a lot of rearranging in the last version to reduce this sort of thing.) If that can happen, then what do I do? If it's at all possible to do this, then I basically have three options:
1> Allow you to jump straight from Shrine to Cathedral by getting the later tech (which'd list as "can acquire a Cathedral" in the tech tree), instead of forcing you to take the Shrine -> Church one first.
2> Have the tooltips not match reality, to where it might say Cathedral for the later tech but you only get the Shrine -> Church upgrade, and when you take the one that says Church you get the Church -> Cathedral upgrade.
3> Have the tech tree list all three techs that boost a level to say Church, and then once you pick one of the three it lists them as Cathedral, and so on.

None of those are desirable, so I went with the current setup. Now, if I can guarantee that it's utterly impossible to ever beeline past the early increase to get the later one, then yes, I could do what you say. It'd be a little more work to insert the appropriate text keys, but not much.
Yeah, I can see these three options not working out.
As far as I can tell, there's only one problem at this point, being Conversion & Monotheism, with both giving an extra level to Primary - Cap and Seconday - NonCap, and Conversion not being a requirement for Monotheism.
Also, I get a bit confused by 'maximum level' and 'minimum level', at least, I get what maximum level means, but does a minimum level of 1 for Primary focus (at Mythology) mean that every city that doesn't have a shrine yet, gets one for free?

If you're objecting to using numbers for the levels, then I'd assume you'd also prefer not to see numbers for the growth rates as well. Once upon a time I had a few techs that added or subtracted 2 growth, so the numbers were necessary. Those are gone and now it's always +1 or -1, so it'd be trivial to just drop the numbers entirely for that.
That'd be a lot nicer for my eyes, even though I'm mathematically inclined, but without reference (ie, what's the current favor growth rate), these numbers don't mean an awful lot.

Which brings me to another point: I can't seem to find how much favor a city is going to generate this turn (without factoring in battle favor of course, as you can't calculate that beforehand). Another thing I can't find (in game), is how much favor I need for reaching the next level.
 
Ah, that was indeed not clear. If you don't want to place a button, maybe a text to explain that if you don't pick a god, you get a random one?

That whole window's getting a makeover fairly soon. What you see now is just a placeholder until I can rearrange everything to fit into the standard art deco-style borders in a 1024x768 frame. So yes, I can improve this with a message. I could also have it be where if you've got a god selected the button says "Select", but if you don't, the button says "Random", or something like that. The alternative is just to add a new button for Random, so that you an click on a god to see his effects without having to go through the Select/No step just to get back to the random option.

I don't think I'd use a random within pantheon button, not if there's an option for completely random. I can think of a few use-cases, but they feel very contrived (`I really want to have building favor x3 and priest favor x2, but I can't make up my mind about which Shinto diety I should pick`)

That was my general feeling at the time, since initially the only differences between the seven were the Favor multipliers and the banned Foci. Now, the other difference which I have yet to put on that page (doing so tonight) is to list the three Pantheon-specific Myth units as well. And a page or two back we talked about how the High Events and general anti-Myth bonuses would differ by pantheon, so it's getting to the point where it might be useful to have pantheon-specific random options.

The anti-Myth part is especially important. The Greek Pantheon would rely on its eight Major Heroes to be your main countermeasure to high-end Myth units, while the Norse don't get any Major Heroes but instead get a level 1.5 anti-Myth Hersir and an inherent +1 damage against all Myth units. (Possibly only +1 when you ATTACK, still working out the balance for that one.) So in that sort of situation, I could easily see someone who really wants those Norse inherent advantages and a combat-heavy Favor system, but who doesn't really care if they get Odin, Thor, Loki, or Frigg (each of whom is combat-oriented in a very different way from the others). Those anti-Myth bits won't be in the version I release tonight, with the exception of replacing the Ravens with the Hersir.

I'm still trying to figure out whether I want god-specific units like the Ravens to replace an existing Pantheon unit, or whether they'd be in addition to it. Basically, there are three options:
A> The three Pantheon units for the Norse would be Hersir (1.5), Valkyrie (2.5), and Nidhogg (3.5). In addition, Odin gets the Ravens, Thor gets the Jarl, Loki gets the Giant, and Frigg gets some sort of nature creature. Each god, therefore, has four Pantheon units, sharing three with its friends but having one truly unique option as well; all four unique units are balanced as level 2.5ish units, and would be placed at the Rituals tech.
B> Same as above, except each god's custom unit REPLACES one of the existing three Pantheon units. So Odin and Frigg's custom units would replace the Hersir and would be level 1.5ish in effect, while Thor and Loki's ones replace the Valkyrie as 2.5s. I'd still need to make 28 custom units, and you wouldn't encounter most of them in most games, but it'd reduce the balance issues.
C> The Norse would now have 5 Pantheon units: the Hersir and Ravens at 1.5, the Valkyrie and Giant at 2.5, and the Nidhogg at 3.5. Each god would be assigned one of the two at each early tier in the four different combinations, so Odin woud be Ravens/Valkyrie, Thor Hersir/Valkyrie, Loki Hersir/Giants, and Frigg Ravens/Giants (which sounds like a football game).

Yeah, I can see these three options not working out.
As far as I can tell, there's only one problem at this point, being Conversion & Monotheism, with both giving an extra level to Primary - Cap and Seconday - NonCap, and Conversion not being a requirement for Monotheism.

I can shuffle things around a bit if need be. The Classical era is kind of bottlenecked at present; you'll enter it with level 2 only in your primary and level 1 in everything else, and by the end of it you're almost to level 4, so I'm trying to cram an awful lot of bonuses into a small number of techs. I tried to use enough cross-compatibilities that you couldn't gain things TOO quickly, but it's still unfortunately cramped.
One possibility would be to move some of the upgrades a bit sooner in the tech tree; right now, you're only getting your first +level at the end of the Ancient, at Mythology, but I could easily move that earlier. If you get your first +level at Mysticism or Spirituality, then I could spread things out enough to ensure it doesn't cause problems like this. The problem is that I'd have to rebalance units yet again; if you're getting level 2 units in the early Ancient, then they can't be nearly as strong as they are now.

Also, I get a bit confused by 'maximum level' and 'minimum level', at least, I get what maximum level means, but does a minimum level of 1 for Primary focus (at Mythology) mean that every city that doesn't have a shrine yet, gets one for free?

Yes, exactly. If you found a new city, it gets the Shrine automatically. If you have a city that hasn't reached Shrine level yet, it immediately bumps up. And for the Minor minimum level at Apostasy, adding a new god automatically adds the appropriate Shrines in all cities (which is pretty huge, so I've been thinking hard about whether I should ditch that).

This was necessary because it became too important to build up early Favor, and too hard to jump-start new cities in the eras with steeper penalties. It's still not much, but it's something.

That'd be a lot nice for my eyes, even though I'm mathematically inclined, but without reference (ie, what's the current favor growth rate), these numbers don't mean an awful lot.

The question then becomes whether I SHOULD tell you the current growth rates, so that those numbers mean something.

Now, if you click on a Focus icon on the Mandala, when it lists the effects it'll color-code the four lines based on what you've unlocked at your current technology. Red means no city can reach that level (yet), Blue means your capital can but non-capitals can't, Green means any city can reach it, and Gray means it's a banned Focus and you'll never unlock it. So if the Focus is Green/Blue/Red/Red for the four lines, then your capital can reach the Church level while other cities are limited to Shrines.
This color-coding was just added in the last version, so it's not well-documented yet. It doesn't help much with long-term planning, but ironically (given your previous statements) I wanted something LESS number-oriented than yet another straight data table.

So maybe the best solution is to put the Growth rate in the Focus information, to where it'll just have one extra line like "Base Favor growth rate: +3 (+4 in capital)" when you click on a Focus. Or I could go with something graphical; it's not hard to make a color-coded bar to show this, sort of like how a unit's HP is shown in the unit panel.

Which brings me to another point: I can't seem to find how much favor a city is going to generate this turn

Top of the screen, the popup tooltip for the Favor readout shows all cities' totals (across all Foci) and how much they are gaining each turn from Buildings and Priests. I don't think it includes the Base rate, though, which starts at 1.

Another thing I can't find (in game), is how much favor I need for reaching the next level.

I'm assuming by "next level" you mean the buildings, and not adding a minor god. If you mouse over any Shrine/Church/Cathedral buildings in your cities, its tooltip should give the amount of Favor in that particular building, and how much is needed to upgrade. Unfortunately this doesn't help with the initial Shrine-creating upgrade (at 100 Favor, adjusted for game speed), but that one shouldn't be too hard to keep track of. The amounts are just 100/300/600/1000, assuming Standard game speed (multiplying by 0.7 for Quick, and 1.5 and 3.0 for the slower speeds).

There's also a "City Favor" tab on the Mandala that'll give the current amounts (so it might say "Washington: Crafts(405), Fire(295), Beauty(150), War(50)"), although not the amounts needed. There's just too much information to easily fit onto the Mandala, so I had to make compromises. Now, maybe I could just add a simple tooltip to that data tab to give the 100/300/600/1000 thresholds and leave it up to the player to work out the rest, but given the unpredictability of Battle Favor and the variable impact of Priests, it's not really that useful to be told a culture-like "X turns until border expands".
 
encountered a small bug today.

Got an event that gives your 3 of your soldiers a promotion, choose chaotic, which should of given my only spearman the critical hit promotion, instead he was given "heal instantly" the promotion that uses a promotion and heals the unit.

Edit: just got my first crash from an event.

The "New luxury" event (medium ephemeral), I choose the material option which spawns a deposit of a luxury resource near you capital, it crashed my game.
 
Got an event that gives your 3 of your soldiers a promotion, choose chaotic, which should of given my only spearman the critical hit promotion, instead he was given "heal instantly" the promotion that uses a promotion and heals the unit.

Okay, that means the ID was unset, since everything defaults to 0 and promotion #0 is Heal Instantly. So looking at the Lua, it was "GameInfoTypes.CRITICAL_STRIKE" when it should have been GameInfoTypes.PROMOTION_CRITICAL_STRIKE. Same for the other three options; they should all be fixed now.

The "New luxury" event (medium ephemeral), I choose the material option which spawns a deposit of a luxury resource near you capital, it crashed my game.

Dang it, I tested that one at least twice. It's very similar to the Deep Mine logic, so it shouldn't be TOO broken. But to be safe, I rewrote the logic to be a bit less breakable.

Okay, I'm pushing off the next update for a day. That gives me a chance to use my handy override that forces an Event to happen right away, and I'll check all 44 options by hand, one at a time. Granted, about half of them are really trivial things like giving every unit some XP, but this'll let me test the rest.

That'll also help me finish up the eight High events; for the next version, I'll just have everyone use the Greek set, and then try to add the diversification (including the other anti-Myth bonuses) in the next version. I've got a little over a week until I go on vacation, so I'm hoping to get a version that's fairly stable and has all of the important bits in place before I go.
 
I wasn't able to get through all of the Event testing last night, since I got stuck at work until late, so the next version will have to wait until tonight.

In the meantime, I could really use feedback on the two questions I've posted recently:

1> Should I:
A> Give each major god a unique unit, in addition to the three Pantheon units?
B> Give each major god a unique unit that replaces one of the three Pantheon units?
C> Switch each Pantheon to have five units, with two 1.5s and two 2.5s, with the four gods having the four combinations?
(The main advantage of A and B are that many myth units were clearly identified with a single god. The downside is that with 28 majors, you're unlikely to see most of these units in a given game, which feels like a lot of wasted effort. Option C helps this, since all Pantheon units will be used by 2 or more gods, and it means I only need to add 5 units per pantheon instead of 7, but it means some questionable assignments, like having to give one of the other Greek gods a lightning bolt if I want Zeus to have one.)

2> I mentioned on a previous page what the seven Pantheon-specific anti-Myth special abilities could be. I don't need feedback on whether those ideas look balanced; that'll work itself out in playtesting. The question is whether I should be adding these Pantheon-specific effects in general. My concern is that doing so will make people less likely to play certain Pantheons; you'll decide you don't like the idea of relying on randomly-awarded Major Heroes and so don't play the Greek gods, or don't care about defensive bonuses and so don't take the Shinto.
 
Sigh.

Okay, here's the deal. I've been going through the Events to make sure each outcome works, and I've confirmed that all Low events work correctly. Most of the Mediums should be functional as well, along with all of the High placeholders.

The problem, like before, is the save/load function. It's loading all the appropriate variables when you load an old savegame... except it's not updating correctly. For whatever reason, the values simply aren't being placed in the database when they're supposed to be. I THOUGHT I'd fixed this, but it apparently isn't set right yet.
The most noticeable culprit here is Player Favor. I'd play 5 turns, get up to 10 Favor, save the game, and reload, and it'd think I was back to only having 2 again. Then I'd go up to 20, save it, load, and it'd say I had 12. The common thread here is that I think those values are what it had when I moused over the top panel, so apparently it's not saving correctly at any other time.

I think I know what's wrong, but I can't try fixing it until tomorrow morning. Regardless of whether I fix it or not, I WILL release this version just so that people can try out the events. You might just have to do without saving old games until I get it fixed.

-----------

On a related note, I mentioned High placeholders? At the moment, the eight Greek events that award Major Heroes are placeholders. Simply put, all four options give you the hero, so you can basically pick which alignment shift you want and you just get the Hero regardless. This was originally intended to be a temporary patch just to get them in the game, but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea in general. If I keep this, then these eight Greek High Events would basically just be a way of gaining named heroes like Achilles, with the less Hero-centric Pantheons having other things. (There are also two High events that will be common to every Pantheon, ones that have nothing to do with Heroes.)
The main reason I like this is that as I've added more and more Myth units, it's become more important to get anti-Myth abilities. I've talked about the various pantheon special effects, but as I was writing those down I realized that the all-Hero setup of the Greeks was just weak, since you'd only get ~4 High Events over the course of a game, and so it was just unlikely an AI (who picks basically randomly) would get ANY of the Heroes. So now, they'll have ~3 over the course of a game.

If I do keep it this way, then I'll clean up the text in the next version.
 
I've confirmed nearly all of the events work as intended (in my version, not yours; I've found and fixed a few bugs), but I found two serious bugs with savegames:

1> When I mentioned that things like Favor weren't being stored correctly, in the last post? Apparently, that only applies to QuickSave games. Games that you save normally seem to work just fine.

2> When I load a non-QuickSave savegame and click on the Favor in the top panel, to pop up the Mandala, it instead pops up the Tech Tree for some reason, and you can't close it. This is serious enough that I'm going to delay posting the mod yet again, because if I can't save the game correctly in either quicksave or not, then it makes it pretty much impossible to get good playtesting in.

So I'll try to get it out tonight. This is really starting to annoy me; I wanted to release this version and still have time for another one before Christmas, and I still might be able to do that, but it only gives me the weekend for working on the next version since I leave next Tuesday.
 
So, if the game calls QuickSave, it performs a different function then a normal Save? That's.... unexpected. I'd thought that QuickSave was just providing a shortcut (ie, no need to pick a name) for the regular Save-function.

Anyway.
About Random buttons:
If you're going to redesign the Pick your Diety screen, I'd personally go for a separate Random button, so the player doesn't need to do the Select/No step, which won't be really clear to new players I'm afraid.
Also, with the Pantheon Units and Pantheon anti-myth, I think you're indeed nearing/crossing the point where adding a Random within Pantheon button would be nice. I personally wouldn't use it I think, but I can see a case of other people wanting something like it.


I can shuffle things around a bit if need be. The Classical era is kind of bottlenecked at present; you'll enter it with level 2 only in your primary and level 1 in everything else, and by the end of it you're almost to level 4, so I'm trying to cram an awful lot of bonuses into a small number of techs. I tried to use enough cross-compatibilities that you couldn't gain things TOO quickly, but it's still unfortunately cramped.
One possibility would be to move some of the upgrades a bit sooner in the tech tree; right now, you're only getting your first +level at the end of the Ancient, at Mythology, but I could easily move that earlier. If you get your first +level at Mysticism or Spirituality, then I could spread things out enough to ensure it doesn't cause problems like this. The problem is that I'd have to rebalance units yet again; if you're getting level 2 units in the early Ancient, then they can't be nearly as strong as they are now.
I think I might like that. Right now, I've been aching to get a Church asap, but that might just be me wanting to try the stuff out. The Ancient age does feel a bit light on the Religion side of things (well actually it's light on pretty much everything, but that's because it's the beginning. Still, early civilizations had a very high religious profile, so starting the content a bit earlier wouldn't be out of place).

Yes, exactly. If you found a new city, it gets the Shrine automatically. If you have a city that hasn't reached Shrine level yet, it immediately bumps up. And for the Minor minimum level at Apostasy, adding a new god automatically adds the appropriate Shrines in all cities (which is pretty huge, so I've been thinking hard about whether I should ditch that).

This was necessary because it became too important to build up early Favor, and too hard to jump-start new cities in the eras with steeper penalties. It's still not much, but it's something.
Ah, I can see the need for that. Haven't gotten that far in a game, so I'll see how it'll play out when I get to it.


The question then becomes whether I SHOULD tell you the current growth rates, so that those numbers mean something.

Now, if you click on a Focus icon on the Mandala, when it lists the effects it'll color-code the four lines based on what you've unlocked at your current technology. Red means no city can reach that level (yet), Blue means your capital can but non-capitals can't, Green means any city can reach it, and Gray means it's a banned Focus and you'll never unlock it. So if the Focus is Green/Blue/Red/Red for the four lines, then your capital can reach the Church level while other cities are limited to Shrines.
This color-coding was just added in the last version, so it's not well-documented yet. It doesn't help much with long-term planning, but ironically (given your previous statements) I wanted something LESS number-oriented than yet another straight data table.

So maybe the best solution is to put the Growth rate in the Focus information, to where it'll just have one extra line like "Base Favor growth rate: +3 (+4 in capital)" when you click on a Focus. Or I could go with something graphical; it's not hard to make a color-coded bar to show this, sort of like how a unit's HP is shown in the unit panel.
I hadn't noticed the color schema yet, that helps a lot. I'd prefer the extra line I think, though a bar would fit as well (depends a bit on what fits best).

The question then becomes whether I SHOULD tell you the current growth rates, so that those numbers mean something.
Top of the screen, the popup tooltip for the Favor readout shows all cities' totals (across all Foci) and how much they are gaining each turn from Buildings and Priests. I don't think it includes the Base rate, though, which starts at 1.

I'm assuming by "next level" you mean the buildings, and not adding a minor god. If you mouse over any Shrine/Church/Cathedral buildings in your cities, its tooltip should give the amount of Favor in that particular building, and how much is needed to upgrade. Unfortunately this doesn't help with the initial Shrine-creating upgrade (at 100 Favor, adjusted for game speed), but that one shouldn't be too hard to keep track of. The amounts are just 100/300/600/1000, assuming Standard game speed (multiplying by 0.7 for Quick, and 1.5 and 3.0 for the slower speeds).

There's also a "City Favor" tab on the Mandala that'll give the current amounts (so it might say "Washington: Crafts(405), Fire(295), Beauty(150), War(50)"), although not the amounts needed. There's just too much information to easily fit onto the Mandala, so I had to make compromises. Now, maybe I could just add a simple tooltip to that data tab to give the 100/300/600/1000 thresholds and leave it up to the player to work out the rest, but given the unpredictability of Battle Favor and the variable impact of Priests, it's not really that useful to be told a culture-like "X turns until border expands".
Thanks, that helps a lot. The initial shrine isn't much of a problem, that's something I can remember. X until upgrade would be silly given all the variables.



Answers to questions:
1) I'd go for A or B (probably A). I don't mind not seeing every unit in the game every time I play the game (in fact I haven't seen a bunch of late game UU's in vanilla yet). The fact that I still see something new every time I play adds to the feeling that I'm playing a different game then the previous one, and makes me wonder what I'll be up against next. It'll also make the permutations/different gods feel more unique, adding to the replayability of the mod in general, and to the Pantheons in specific.

2) I think it is a nice way to diversify the Pantheons a bit. With only the favor generation different for the Pantheons (apart from the different Foci for the gods), the differences feel a bit artificial. If the Pantheons are more unique, I think there's more of a choice to be made, which would be a good thing in my book.


On a related note, I mentioned High placeholders? At the moment, the eight Greek events that award Major Heroes are placeholders. Simply put, all four options give you the hero, so you can basically pick which alignment shift you want and you just get the Hero regardless. This was originally intended to be a temporary patch just to get them in the game, but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea in general. If I keep this, then these eight Greek High Events would basically just be a way of gaining named heroes like Achilles, with the less Hero-centric Pantheons having other things. (There are also two High events that will be common to every Pantheon, ones that have nothing to do with Heroes.)
The main reason I like this is that as I've added more and more Myth units, it's become more important to get anti-Myth abilities. I've talked about the various pantheon special effects, but as I was writing those down I realized that the all-Hero setup of the Greeks was just weak, since you'd only get ~4 High Events over the course of a game, and so it was just unlikely an AI (who picks basically randomly) would get ANY of the Heroes. So now, they'll have ~3 over the course of a game.
While I agree with the Hero-High-events in this setup giving a hero regardless of choice, I think you'll have to make it clear in the text of the event that the Hero is the event, not an award for picking one of the four choices, as the player will get him anyway. (If the player thinks the hero is an award for one of the four choices, and finds out that he'll get the hero no matter what he choses, he feels cheated, as the choice he made was nonsubstantial (at least, less substantial then he thought it would be, as there's still the alignment shift) aka, he feels like it was a Bioware-quest, with the exact same outcome, no matter which way you go.)
 
I'd thought that QuickSave was just providing a shortcut (ie, no need to pick a name) for the regular Save-function.

So did I, although I'd known that the quicksave wouldn't unload and reload the entire database, whereas a normal save would. I realized the missing piece: the values that are being restored when I load the Quicksave are the values from the most recent autosaved turn. That is, I've got my preferences set to autosave every 5 turns, so when I restore a game on turn 3, it's using the turn 0 autosave's values, restoring on turn 8 gives me turn 5's autosave, and so on. It's way too coincidental that this was happening, so it looks like the ScriptData (which is what I'm using for data storage) cheats on quicksaves by going to the last autosave.

For now, I'll just put a disclaimer not to use quicksaves too much. In the long term, I'll either change the data storage from ScriptData to the replacement system the devs provided, or find some more persistent way to store the information.

If you're going to redesign the Pick your Diety screen, I'd personally go for a separate Random button, so the player doesn't need to do the Select/No step, which won't be really clear to new players I'm afraid.

I get that. It's just that I still need to decide whether I should add a pantheon-specific Random, a global Random, both, or neither. It's looking like I'll absolutely need a global Random, and may or may not need the pantheon-specific one. The problem is that I never use a random option personally, because I'd get fifty turns in and think "you know, I really wish I had picked X instead." So I'm just not the ideal person to decide whether it's a needed function, and I've been trying to get feedback.

I've been aching to get a Church asap, but that might just be me wanting to try the stuff out.

No, it's not just you. You see, once upon a time, back in v0.01ish, cities started at level 0 with no religious buildings and no way to gain any. Shrines in your Primary unlocked at Mysticism, Shrines in your Secondary at Spirituality, and Shrines in your Minor at Mythology. You wouldn't get to Churches until the Classical. The reason was that in my original concept, religion was something you transitioned into; the start would play basically like in standard Civ5, and you'd only really get started with religion by taking Mysticism.

I realized I didn't like that, that it spent too much time with no religion at all, and so changed every cap to start at 1 and your capital starting with two Shrines. But while I've moved the level 2 transition up slightly (to where your Primary in the capital reaches 2 at Mythology), it's still pretty late in the era; it might be 50-100 turns before you hit that point. So my new plan is to move the Church transition to Spirituality for your Primary (capital only) and the Secondary at Mythology, which'll allow me to spread things out a bit more in the Classical.

The initial shrine isn't much of a problem, that's something I can remember. X until upgrade would be silly given all the variables.

I should note that I realized last night that I'd accidentally broken that Favor readout in the last version. It was implemented a couple versions ago, but when I was transitioning from having 1 Mythology policy to having 5 progressive penalties, I hadn't fixed that particular one to trigger correctly.
Another side effect of this bug is that no Favor-generating buildings were showing the Favor they'd generate in their tooltips inside the city screen. Obviously there aren't many of these, though.

he fact that I still see something new every time I play adds to the feeling that I'm playing a different game then the previous one, and makes me wonder what I'll be up against next.

Right. There's no question it makes a better experience for the player, in terms of content diversity. But that's not really good for ME, because I now have to do a lot of extra work. More unit icons, models, etc. is bad enough, but think about the balance involved; take option A for instance. If I give Zeus a lightning bolt, and Poseidon gets something seen as less powerful, then I've created a serious balance issue. This is especially a problem if I need to put these at different techs. And if half of the units are never appearing in a typical game, it just becomes a lot harder to evaluate whether things are balanced poorly or not.

Option B helps this a bit, because replacing the appropriately leveled Pantheon unit means everyone's still getting one level 1.5, one level 2.5, and one level 3.5. So it's okay if Odin's UU replaces the 1.5 while Thor's replaces the 2.5. Option C is even better for this.

The pain, though, is exactly how I can implement any of this. The current Pantheon units work because you have the right Project and the right technology, so it's automatically added to the build list. I'm just not sure if I CAN do these options without adding a whole other layer of buildings/projects and the new CityCanBuild Lua GameEvent. That's why I haven't put them in yet.

If the Pantheons are more unique, I think there's more of a choice to be made, which would be a good thing in my book.

It's definitely a good thing to have more meaningful choices. The only issue, as I mentioned before, is that it could lead to one pantheon being seen as just weak all around. I'm already concerned that this'll be the case with the Shinto and maybe Sumerians, as they're a bit strange on what Foci are available, but I could easily see the Greek pantheon being seen as weak if they rely primarily on these rare Major Heroes to provide the bulk of their anti-Myth ability while the Norse and such get more accessible anti-Myth bonuses to mundane units.

While I agree with the Hero-High-events in this setup giving a hero regardless of choice, I think you'll have to make it clear in the text of the event that the Hero is the event, not an award for picking one of the four choices, as the player will get him anyway.

Not a problem. At the moment it just says something like "Hercules Event", with all four choices saying "Add Hercules". (When I say "placeholder" I mean it.) In the long term, I'd change this to just be an introduction event, where the description tells you all about Hercules and it's clear that all four options gain him. Another possibility would be to add some token secondary effect; get Hercules AND 25 Food, or get Hercules AND a weak Myth unit, and so on. It could even be better than that, like "Get Hercules AND he starts with the Shock I promotion" vs. "Get Hercules AND he starts with the Drill I promotion", to where the event spawns the unit and then adds something extra to it based on your choice.

This is something that could really be Pantheon-specific. For the Sumerians, for instance, I'm only planning to use four heroes, and THEIR events might be structured differently. So the "Bull of Heaven" event lets you pick either Gilgamesh OR Enkidu, the Flood event lets you pick Gilgamesh OR Utnapishtim (or whatever his name was), and so on; 4 heroes means six combinations of 2, which means I'd need to come up with at least two more non-Hero high events. (Several of the heroes had no contact with each other, though; Gilgamesh was really the central hero.) It's easy enough to disable overlapping outcomes, like disabling any choice that awards Gilgamesh if you already have him.

One thing I was thinking of doing, though, was making at least the Greek high events give +2 to an alignment instead of +1, to make up for the lack of choice in other effects. Besides just being nice in general, this'd give the AI a much better tool for avoiding areas of the Mandala that have fewer minor choices. So while your choice might seem inconsequential if all four outcomes basically give Hercules, you'd at least get that extra effect.

Another possibility is to change it to be more like that Sumerian design; maybe all four outcomes still award Major Heroes, but each might offer a DIFFERENT Major Hero. Something like this:
The Lawful Material high event has four choices:
L: Get Hercules (he's LM)
M: Get Hercules (again, LM)
C: Get Ajax (he's M, which is the next hero you get to if you go in the direction of chaos)
E: Get Perseus (he's L, which is the next one you get to if you go in the direction of ephemeral)
and like the Sumerian ones above, it'd simply disable each option if you'd already gained that hero from a previous Event. Possibly even have all four choices be unique, since you can't easily do the 1/2/1 thing for an axial Event.

Now, I could easily frame this in a way that reflected mythology. A "Trojan War" event aligned with the Chaos axis might let you pick between Achilles (C), Odysseus (CE), the Argos (CM), or Ajax (M). A "Fearsome Monster" event might let you pick between Hercules (LM), Perseus (L), Theseus (LE), or Bellerophon (E). This sort of thing would still give you some flexibility, as the eight Greek heroes included three swordsmen, two spearmen, one archer, one mounted, and a boat. But it'd give you a hero regardless, which'd help with the balance.

As you can see, I've gone through a ton of iterations on the design. Since there aren't many people giving feedback, it's just not easy to decide.
 
I'm about to head home from work, and in the spare time while my code was compiling, I redesigned the Mythology tech tree. I won't try to fit this into the version I'm going to upload tonight (assuming I can fix the Mandala breakage), but I'll work on the mod over the weekend to get this in before my vacation. The upshot is that your capital will now reach level 2 (Church) in all three Focus types before the end of the Ancient; to do this, I'm moving Shamanism down from the Classical to the late Ancient. (Which makes sense, if you think about it.) That means 4 religious techs in the Ancient, 5 in the Classical, 4 in the Medieval, and 1 in the Renaissance; you should see a bit more of an immediate effect this way.

I've also rearranged the techs to basically eliminate beelining possibilities AND the chance of raising a non-capital bonus before the corresponding capital bonus. But to do this, I'm also going to cheat a bit, and co-opt Philosophy and Theology to have religious effects. It's only fair, since I'd previously pulled some of the Wonders unlocked at those techs over to my new techs. So those two basically offset Iconoclasm and Deism (both of which are my techs, but their religious effects are purely negative now).

The downside to this process is that you'll now be unlocking level 2 units in the mid-Ancient (although just in your capital), which means I may need to rebalance all of the Myth units yet again to make sure they don't completely dominate mundane units. Hence why I'm not doing this tonight.
 
I get that. It's just that I still need to decide whether I should add a pantheon-specific Random, a global Random, both, or neither. It's looking like I'll absolutely need a global Random, and may or may not need the pantheon-specific one. The problem is that I never use a random option personally, because I'd get fifty turns in and think "you know, I really wish I had picked X instead." So I'm just not the ideal person to decide whether it's a needed function, and I've been trying to get feedback.
In that case you can write my name down as a vote for 'Global Random Buttton'. Pantheon-specific isn't needed yet IMHO, but I reserve the right to change my opinion on this one ;)


Right. There's no question it makes a better experience for the player, in terms of content diversity. But that's not really good for ME, because I now have to do a lot of extra work. More unit icons, models, etc. is bad enough, but think about the balance involved; take option A for instance. If I give Zeus a lightning bolt, and Poseidon gets something seen as less powerful, then I've created a serious balance issue. This is especially a problem if I need to put these at different techs. And if half of the units are never appearing in a typical game, it just becomes a lot harder to evaluate whether things are balanced poorly or not.

Option B helps this a bit, because replacing the appropriately leveled Pantheon unit means everyone's still getting one level 1.5, one level 2.5, and one level 3.5. So it's okay if Odin's UU replaces the 1.5 while Thor's replaces the 2.5. Option C is even better for this.

The pain, though, is exactly how I can implement any of this. The current Pantheon units work because you have the right Project and the right technology, so it's automatically added to the build list. I'm just not sure if I CAN do these options without adding a whole other layer of buildings/projects and the new CityCanBuild Lua GameEvent. That's why I haven't put them in yet.
Ah, yes, I was looking at it from the players perspective, not so much from a developers point of view. I can see how that A would be difficult to balance (B would be less so, given that you'll have a good benchmark as you're replacing something else).



It's definitely a good thing to have more meaningful choices. The only issue, as I mentioned before, is that it could lead to one pantheon being seen as just weak all around. I'm already concerned that this'll be the case with the Shinto and maybe Sumerians, as they're a bit strange on what Foci are available, but I could easily see the Greek pantheon being seen as weak if they rely primarily on these rare Major Heroes to provide the bulk of their anti-Myth ability while the Norse and such get more accessible anti-Myth bonuses to mundane units.
Unless you keep them identical, one Pantheon is going to be stronger then another. But it'll depend very much on play-style, map, civ and neighbours which one will be stronger. That being said, it should be clear beforehand which one is stronger, so I agree with you that is going to be one though balancing act to get it right (disclaimer: you'll never get it right for everybody ;) ). Under different circumstances I'd say, just go with it and rebalance it depending on feedback, but I'm afraid that you're sample base would be too small, with some play-styles being overrepresented.




About the events: I like both the 'You get the same Hero, but you can chose a promotion' and the 'Trojan war'-style event where you can pick a hero, very much. Adds a lot of flavor, I'd think.




I'm about to head home from work, and in the spare time while my code was compiling, I redesigned the Mythology tech tree. I won't try to fit this into the version I'm going to upload tonight (assuming I can fix the Mandala breakage), but I'll work on the mod over the weekend to get this in before my vacation. The upshot is that your capital will now reach level 2 (Church) in all three Focus types before the end of the Ancient; to do this, I'm moving Shamanism down from the Classical to the late Ancient. (Which makes sense, if you think about it.) That means 4 religious techs in the Ancient, 5 in the Classical, 4 in the Medieval, and 1 in the Renaissance; you should see a bit more of an immediate effect this way.

I've also rearranged the techs to basically eliminate beelining possibilities AND the chance of raising a non-capital bonus before the corresponding capital bonus. But to do this, I'm also going to cheat a bit, and co-opt Philosophy and Theology to have religious effects. It's only fair, since I'd previously pulled some of the Wonders unlocked at those techs over to my new techs. So those two basically offset Iconoclasm and Deism (both of which are my techs, but their religious effects are purely negative now).

The downside to this process is that you'll now be unlocking level 2 units in the mid-Ancient (although just in your capital), which means I may need to rebalance all of the Myth units yet again to make sure they don't completely dominate mundane units. Hence why I'm not doing this tonight.
Sounds good to me, I'm not around for the weekend, but I'll try to play some quick games next week. If you get around to another version before Christmas, I should be able to get some real testing/playing done over the holidays.
 
I've posted a new version over in the FILES thread. It's a very short patch, since it basically just fixes all of the broken events, fixes the promotion crash issue, and enables placeholder High events. Only Base and Mythology were altered.

Now, here's the problem: you still can't load old savegames correctly. I don't know why; most times it'll just reset you back to where you were on turn 0, but not always. So you'll lose any Favor accumulated, AND any Minor Gods you'd chosen (Although the shrines already in your city will still be there, which means you could abuse this to get a bunch of free buildings).

So for now, you can't load an old savegame.

This shouldn't be happening. The save functions I'm using are the exact same ones the Building Resources mod used to preserve its info, so it should not be doing this. I AM going to fix this this weekend; if I can't get it to work, I'll scrap those save/load functions and switch to a different storage architecture.

I've also run into another strange one: when I'd reload the savegame, it wouldn't execute the DiploCornerAddIn mechanism. This means that it wouldn't add the Mandala to the pulldown menu, and wouldn't initialize the context (which meant that clicking on the Favor on the top of the screen also wouldn't work). This may or may not be linked to the above problem.
The strange part here is that the logic I'm using is EXACTLY the same as what InfoAddict uses, and obviously that mod doesn't have this issue.

For now I've hard-coded the pulldown table to include the Mandala, but unfortunately, this means that the mod is not fully compatible with InfoAddict. (It IS compatible if my mod loads first, just not the other way around.) This is another thing I WILL fix before I go on vacation.

There WILL be a new version in 3-4 days, on the 19th or 20th. I go on vacation on the evening of the 20th, and come back on the 31st, so there'll be no new versions posted during that period. I'll spend some of my vacation planning out the pantheon-specific events, so after I come back I'll put all of those in; my hope is to have v1.00 (the first version that has all of the planned elements included) by mid-January.
 
I just tried this out for the first time last night, and I really enjoy it. I played monty on tiny prince (just to get a feel for it), and I grabbed war and fire as my major god. I thought it was really fun, and the fact that i not only got culture from kills, but also favor, really made me want to go pick fights with everyone.

Two balance issues I'm seeing right now, not sure if they've been mentioned yet. First off, the only option I had for my first minor god was balance, and I didn't really want it. My goal was to be stronger than everyone I faced militarily, and so it seemed kind of worthless/detrimental to pick out something that might "balance" all my units down. I'll admit I was a bit confused by the mandala at first, so it's possible there actually was another option and I just didn't see it, but if not, I really think there should be other choices.

Second, I was broke nearly the entire game. the only thing keeping me alive was the occasional pillage. because it takes so long before currency shows up, I spent 90 turns only building things that costed money. Even with the collosus and my capitol only working gold tiles, I was running a huge debt. the problem was, at some point my cities only options for production were units or builidings with maintenance, and since I couldn't afford the maintenance, I just built units and sold them, over and over. So I think there should either be a much earlier "build wealth" option than currency, or an earlier money making builiding. Perhaps not a multiplier, like the market, but something like a pilgrimage shrine that brought in extra money or extra money from trade routes.
 
First off, the only option I had for my first minor god was balance, and I didn't really want it.

This is one of the things I'm looking at right now. Some gods have a lot of choices for their first minor god, some have very few. Once I get the numbers for these, I might go back and move some of the minor gods around or change the equations for certain Foci. The goal is to have an average of three choices for your first pick; right now there are a few gods with 1, and a few with 5. The goal is to have all choices have between 2 and 4 options for their first choice.

My goal was to be stronger than everyone I faced militarily, and so it seemed kind of worthless/detrimental to pick out something that might "balance" all my units down.

It might be your goal to be stronger, but it's not going to happen that way. Everyone has access to the same units, and you WILL end up on the short side of a swordsman-vs-dragon fight just as often as anyone else. In fact, as a follower of Huitzilopochtli it's even more likely than normal, since War and Fire are Foci that boost your mundane units and have little or no access to powerful Myth units. So when facing off against a follower of Ra, Inari, Anu, Tezcatlipoca, Hades, Shiva, or Loki (the major gods that have Death, Animals, or Darkness as a focus) you'll often be throwing mundane units against Myth units, which is nearly always going to be an uphill battle.

In the long term (by the time you get to Longswords and such), yes, there'll be more times when your unit would be stronger than your enemy's. That's why the Balance 4 effect includes the bit where the promotions no longer adjust downward, only upward; having every unit be able to increase its strength by 30% when facing level 4 myth units is HUGE when you reach the Medieval. The key is that Balance focus' promotions adjust based on the BASE combat values of the units involved, i.e. before counting promotions. No matter how many strength-boosting promotions you give it from Fire and War, your Warriors are still a base value of 6, your swordsmen are still an 11, and so on. So Balance is actually a very good choice for people who intend to use mostly mundane units for their warfare, instead of relying on myth units for everything.

Let's say you're in the mid-Classical. You've got a Swordsman (strength 11) with +100% in promotions. Your enemy has a Griffon (strength 14 myth unit at Animals 3), with +50% in promotions. Normally this'd be a fairly even fight (22-vs-21). With Balance 2, your 11 becomes a 13.2, and now it's 26.4-vs-21.
Now that same swordsman faces a Shade (strength 9, at Darkness 2), again with +50% in promotions. His 11 would go downward, to a 9 (the maximum down shift would be to 8.8, but in this case it'd just set it equal). But he'd still have better promotions, so it'd be 18-vs-13.5. Not that much different than the 22-vs-13.5 you'd have without the Balance.

Basically, Balance is a great promotion for anyone who intends to rely on non-Myth units for their battles. Most of the promotion-giving Foci will ONLY give promotions to non-Myth units, so it goes well with Fire and War. The Balance mechanism is the exact same one I've used for Psi units in the Ascension mod for the past year; it's very good for players who are behind technologically, or who at least want to be able to still use their low-level units once they unlock better ones, and it really favors people who can build up a lot of promotions on their units.

I'll admit I was a bit confused by the mandala at first, so it's possible there actually was another option and I just didn't see it, but if not, I really think there should be other choices.

The valid choices are the ones circled in green. I hadn't reached the Aztec gods in my audit of starting positions, but it's easily possible that there was just one choice for your particular god at that first position. Like I said, I'm currently seeing if anything needs to be changed to make things a bit more even.

In the long term, it's not very important. By the time you get the 1200 Favor needed for your second god, you'll have gone through a half-dozen Events, each of which will have moved you on the Mandala. Who KNOWS where you'll be when the next choice happens.

Second, I was broke nearly the entire game.

I'm not going to say that that's intentional, but it IS supposed to be hard. In vanilla civ, a smart player can basically be good at everything, but in this mod, the penalties in every area are severe enough that no matter how intelligently you play, you'll have shortages in food, production, gold, happiness, etc. if you don't pick minor gods that cover your weaknesses. That is, if you find yourself short on money, pick a gold-boosting god; Wealth is the obvious one, but quite a few other Foci add small amounts of money at various points (Plants, Travel, and so on). It's the downside of picking only warmongering Foci, or overspecializing in any other yield. Balance should help a bit there, though; it's designed to be the Focus that covers any weakness.

I'm not saying the numbers can't be tweaked. Right now the five era-based Mythology penalties to gold production are -10/15/20/25/30%, and I can easily knock that down to 5/10/15/20/25%, and/or add some other bonus (like having Palaces give +1/2/3/4/5 gold in these eras). Also, a major headache with Priests right now is that the AI just doesn't see them as desirable, despite the Happiness they produce; the way to fix this is to boost their yields enough that the AI would want to build them even without the Happiness. Right now they're just +1 Food, and gain +1 Gold at the national epic, but I've been looking at making them have two +1s as the baseline; I want Culture to be one of the two, and so was leaning towards a food/culture thing, but I could easily make it a Culture/Gold boost, with Food at National Epic. I'll look into it.

So I think there should either be a much earlier "build wealth" option than currency, or an earlier money making builiding. Perhaps not a multiplier, like the market, but something like a pilgrimage shrine that brought in extra money or extra money from trade routes.

That's a possibility, too. One of the problems with this mod is that by extending the early eras, it's even longer before you reach the techs that improve yields of plots or unlock money-making buildings. Also, since the entire Mythology block comes before Astronomy, you won't have met many of the other players or other city-states.
So I could move the Wealth and Research processes to earlier techs; my fear is that it'd make production-boosting Foci even more valuable, and I don't want to do that if I can avoid it.
 
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