AI attitude

[Bamspeedy]

Originally posted by Hygro
I found out a bit with degub mode also, but in 1.14f:

Gracious started at -6 or -7, forious at 6 or 7.

After nuking the AI and burning cities and breaking peace treaties, I could not get worse then +30

When I would give them a gift, it might gice around -5 or so (a tech), but when I started giving more right afterwards, I'd get a +1 penalty. Any further gifts made no differance.

Well I tested in 1.14f and I still get civs gracious at -11, and furious at +11, regardless of who has the power lead. Could you give more specifics to what was happening in your game (difficulty level, map conditions, # of opponents, civs that were involved, any attitude changes that had happened, etc.) or send me a save to bamspeedy@msn.com or post the save here so I can take a closer look at it.

Nukes: Civs that were not the victim of the nuke will add +13 (if they don't also declare war on you). I haven't studied yet to see how much of this is temporary or permanent, and how much the victim adds on. I had the Celts go from -3 (polite) to +10 (annoyed) when I nuked the Aztecs.

Gifts are the same as I posted, with a cap at -10 if the AI has a power lead, and -5 if you have the power lead.

I can still get civs at +100 if I continually demand tribute from them. -1 if the amount is small (10 gold) and they are still polite with me, -2 if they are annoyed/furious, or if the demand is a very large amount (10,000 gold).
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Another thing I noticed- For the 'who has the culture lead' point bonus/penalty, it doesn't seem to affect things until you have a few culture points lead (won't take into effect the same turn, or turn after you built your first temple, but will kick in by the time you get 10 culture points, for example).

 

[Paradox]

Great article, but I have one question. If the AI asks me for one of those ridiculous trades, such as 1000 gold, Rocketry, and Fission, just for their world map, do I get a rep hit if I refuse the deal?

 

[SiggyLlama]

I'm guessing the penalty for disbanding slave workers is to discourage us from capturing AI workers and then disbanding them immediately if we know we can't get them safely to our own territory. "If I can't have them, neither can you" = slaughtering them.

If this is the case, then the penalty need only apply to slaves that are disbanded outside of your own borders.

 

[Frimlin]

Yeah well anyhow, all I can say is that I'll be seriously reconsidering some of my tactics when dealing with AI civs. I know *some* human players will actually feel long standing gratitude for the kind of gifts I've given AI players. Maybe I just need to play more multiplayer Civ3, where my more real-world diplomacy style of play is going to actually have some kind of tactical advantage.

*tries to remind self that even in a multiplayer game, a human controlled civ you've gifted too, who appreciated it, may still well betray you at the last minute -- it's just a game*

 

[KindLE]

Wow, thanks Bam. Very insightful.

 

[Hygro]

I'm not going to post a save, because in the map I was testing units. I did not document my findings, so I don't know how accurate I am.

However, I do remember one weird thing I thought you aught to test:

When I wouuld give gifts, I would get the big old jump of attitude. When I gave more, it would add the angry +1. More gifts after that made no differance. And yes, I had the power lead if that matters.

 

[Lorenzarius]

Excellent article!I was wondering about this kind of thing for a long time.

BTW, how eactly does nuking affect the AIs attitude towards you? Any test done about that?

 

[Bamspeedy]

Hygro- Were you giving just money, or were you also giving away some techs. If you gave away a government tech, the AI instantly goes into anarchy to switch to that new government, so then they would be in a different government than you, so you would see a +1 difference there.

Nukes: Victim of the nuke adds +32! Other civs will add on +16, regardless of whether they declared war on you or not. These penalties are permanent (for at least the 30-50+ turns that I pushed 'end turn'). I don't know why I had +13 before for the non-victim, I may have miscalculated or forgot some factor, or the 3rd civ I was using didn't have a power lead over me.

Interesting note: Civs who have not met the victim of the nuke or anyone else, or even explored or have the map of where the nuke hit already knows it was you that used a nuke and will add on the +16 penalty.

 

[Hygro]

I was giving away things like pottery and masonry... I personally found it really weird. I'll have to try it again.

 

[Ronald]

Hi Bamspeedy,

This is a great article. It helped me a lot to keep the AI polite with me at low costs!

Did you also find out how the AI decides to go to war with you? The last game I was playing (emperor level patch 1.29f), 4 times in the game, the AI decided to go to war with me when they were at polite (I was playing Iroquoise, first Japan declared war, then Rome, then Persia and finally Greece).

any ideas welcome

Ronald

 

[Bamspeedy]

Ronald, no I didn't study the likeliness of the AI declaring war. Attitude may play a part of it, but I'm sure it is a formula that takes several factors into account, so attitude will help or hurt a little, but certainly not be an absolute.

Like I explained before when Charis asked about this (because he would have gracious civs attack him, but not furious civs), from what I've seen the odds of a civ declaring war on you seem to be based on power lead, whether or not you are one of the top 2 civs, having resources, techs, and other stuff the AI doesn't have, military size/strength, attitude, reputation, not having a culture lead, being on the same land mass or being their neighbor, and Firaxis did say there is a random factor involved. The more of these that apply would probably increase the chance, but no matter what you do, there is probably still a chance they would declare war, because of the random factor- RNG (just like when tanks lose to spearman).

 

[Sir. Martin]

This is one of the greatest tips ever. I knew alot of it already, but to have numbers at the different things and solvens of some of my wonderings is great. Good job there

BTW just played a diplomatic game, used your numbers, and only once where declared war at me... That i rare

 

[Shabbaman]

Bamspeedy, good job! It's not that it's actually of any real use to me as a player, but this makes it a lot easier to explain how the AI 'reacts'. Most 'seasoned' players will know this from experience, but I love to see it quantified!

Thanks!

 

[billindenver]

Sometimes, I wish the game itself would give you more information. Why isn't there a foreign advisor screen that shows this information? E.g., I should be able to see a summary list of every civs 'transgressions'. If Persia has ROP'ed 5 times, destroyed 4 cities, and broken 8 trade agreements, wouldn't my foreign advisor tell me this? Why not show every civ and the number of transgression from for foreign advisor summary screen? I'd like to see a list of my own transgressions too. Sometimes, I'm sure I have no idea that I've broken a trade agreement since that civ declared war on me.

 

[alpha wolf 64]

A few nights ago, I had some time on my hand and decided to play out an old game just to nuc someone and see the results. I'd been at war with Germany for awhile and it was very slow going as they were heavily defended. I dropped a nuc on a heavy concentration of German forces and every other civ declared war on me. Since I was bored, I reloaded the game, and setup alliances against the Germans with some. When I dropped the nuc this time, none of those nations declared war on me. Since I was playing a mass regicide game, I decided to use my entire arsenal to take out the Germans. Even after the Germans were wipe out, those nations I had alliances with did not declare war on me. This seems to me that being in an alliance also affects the negative influence of using nucs. Just my 2 cents for a great cause.

 

[hbdragon88]

Great work, Bamspeedy!

I only have Civ3, but I'll try some of the tips. No longer will I have to bankrupt myself by giving other civs 200 gold to win diplomatic votes; I can just do 50 and get the same effect.

First, would Civ3 1.29 be much different from PTW 1.01? If so this may not apply to me as well as it could be.

That's good: generous giving does not decay over time. I'll make a point of giving little to make a long way.

Ahh so this is why other civs would be so angry with me when nuking. I wouldn't care about nuking the victim because I intended to destroy them neverthelss (with heavy AI help) but didn't know that it could be so damaging in reputation to the other civs. But is this every nuke used or a one-time? Tactical nukes count too? My God...I used at least ten tacticals and an ICBM against the Babylons, and about four ICBMs against the Japanese in a single game...Egytians are absolutely furious at me.

I can't even concieve how - all I did against them was to break an alliance by destroying the Zulu - oh, about 150 years ago in my game. They have been breaking alliances - made peace with Babylon and again with the Japanese. At least that's how much I remember. With the breaking against Japan, they wouldn't go back in unless I gave them 16,000 gold. Nuking may have a factor, though, now that I have read about it.

By carefully reading and re-reading the article I really must have ticked off Egypt, because I have both an MPP/ROP with them. I broke that accidentally though; but they were furious even before that.

By the numbering on the aggression level of the AI, are you meaning the aggression levels that are placed in the scenario editor? With this, so that Egypt would fall in the six civs of level 3 so it would be neutral?

Breaking an alliance when a civ is destroyed still tacks on +2? Being a real diplomat is hard - ahh, but what the hell: in this current Egypt wrangle, the UN vote has long passed.

For the maximum a civ can get mad with you, would it be if the AI does not have a culture lead? Doesn't a culture lead more placate the civ, because they're all suprerior and they're not?

I've sold workers and tried to buy them back, but then I lose about ten gold during the exchange, which is a real turn-off for buying or even selling my workers in the first place!

With the destruction of the civ ensured when deciding to nuke, it matters not what the +32 penality does. Only the +16 penality matters - I don't like the other civs being so pissed at me.

Can you elaborate more on the 'culture groups'? Persia belongs to what culture block? Having looked over Kal-el's map and Marla Singer's, I can come up with this:

Iroquois, America, Aztecs
Zulu, Egypt
Rome, France, England, Germany, Greece
Russia, China, Japan, India
Babylon, Persia (?)

...Although this may be very wrong.

 

[Karasu]

Let me add my humble voice to all those who congratulated you for your article, Bam. It is really illuminating! :worshp:

I think this is even more useful in "relative terms": I mean, those factors will also apply between each individual AI, so not only is it clear now what to do to improve the AI's attitute towards you, but also what to do to make them furious with one another.

That is, if I ever am a good diplomat, I will not be desperate if the other civs don't love me, I'll just make sure that the majority of them hates all the other AIs more than they hat me...

 

[Grey Fox]

Originally posted by hbdragon88
Can you elaborate more on the 'culture groups'? Persia belongs to what culture block?

These are the cultural groups:

Mediterranean
- Rome
- Egypt
- Greece
- Cartage

Mid East
- Babylon
- Persia
- Zululand
- Ottomans
- Arabia

European
- Germany
- Russia
- France
- England
- Spain
- Scandinavia
- Celts

Asian
- China
- Japan
- India
- Mongols
- Korea

American
- America
- Aztecs
- Iroquois

Hope this helps

 

[Nagash]

Really great work ...

But ..., how long does it take to get this whole stuff ..., nearly unbeliveabel!

 

[Arrian]

Illuminating. Fantastic work, Bamspeedy.

A lot of my assumptions about how this works were correct, but several were not:

I thought having slaves of another civ made them mad. Not so. Hmm... so when I sold that slave of mine to another AI, I wonder what that did (I was trying to get two AIs pissed at each other), if anything?

I had no idea that there were limitations on gifts (100 bucks that's it). Not that I'm in the habit of giving the AI gifts.

I didn't know about the hit for selling your workers. Makes sense to close a potential exploit, I guess.

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The temporary boost from alliance/war vs. common enemy makes sense (the temporary nature of the bonus, I mean). What I'm not sure makes sense is the hit you take after the war for razing the common enemy's cities, etc.

Ah, whatever. The way I play, they're gonna hate me anyway.

-Arrian