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AI attitude

Discussion in 'Civ3 Strategy Articles' started by Bamspeedy, Feb 19, 2003.

  1. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    Sir Pleb, I did some more tests on multiple declarations of war.

    Target civ, +4 for the first war, then after declaring war the second time (after waiting 20 turns), I was at +8, so that was +4 for each war. For the 3rd war if I waited another 20 turns after the 2nd war, I was now at +12.

    Nuetral civ: +1 for the first war, +2 for the second war, and the third war had no effect. However if I declared war on someone else, I would now be at +3, so it seems there is a cap of +2 that nuetral civs will add on for each civ you had declared war on two or more times.

    But in one test I did, I waited ~40-50 turns in between the second and third wars, and it looked like I recovered a point from the nuetral civ and 4 points from the target civ. So it might possibly be that the 2nd war penalty could be forgotten if you stay at peace with everyone for 40-50 turns as some sort of 'peacenik' bonus.
     
  2. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    Culture flips: +1 if you accept the city that wants to flip (it will take into effect one full turn after gaining control of the city).

    -1 if you refuse the flip. This is cumulitive. I had a city that wanted to flip on two consecutive turns. Refused both times and got -2, then it wanted to flip about 10 turns later and I was now at -3.

    I don't know if these bonuses/penalties are permanent or temporary.
     
  3. ControlFreak

    ControlFreak Not An Addict, Really

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    This makes sense. I donated some gpt because thats what I had to give. The receipient went frowny face midway through my payoff without any other actions from me.

    I think the issue with 5gpt <> 100g is the "Interest" that the AI charges on gpt. I've noticed that it always cost a bit more to pay with gpt than with lum sum. Similar to the rates they charge in loans which is your gpt for their lump sum.

    New exploit: Culture bomb a town and then keep refusing it for an Attitude bonus. (Not quite as good as the culture bomb, take the free town with defender and then gifting it back to the civ it came from.)
     
  4. SirPleb

    SirPleb Shaken, not stirred.

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    Thanks for all the additions Bamspeedy! You've sure done wonderful research for us. It is good to know that the gift part decays, and good to know the effects of multiple declarations of war. I'm looking forward to the next game where a milked diplo win might be a fun goal :)
     
  5. Moonsinger

    Moonsinger Settler Retired Moderator

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    May be you already answer this question before and I missed it.

    Is the increasement the same if I declare war to a "Gracious" civ verus an "Annoyed" civ? (Assuming that I never declare war to either one of them before)
     
  6. anarres

    anarres anarchist revolutionary

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    Interesting to see that there is no Rep hit for taking out a civ completely. People at CFC have suggested this many times, but I was never convinced.

    Thanks for an amazing article Bamspeedy. :)
     
  7. Darkness

    Darkness Shadow creature

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    Great article Bamspeedy! Maybe this will help me get along better with the AI....
     
  8. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    No attitude adjustments for not accepting an offer they make (unless you accidently click on 'accept this deal or else..' ;) .

    Somewhere (instruction manual, strategy guide, I can't remember) I read that supposedly the AI would get more mad at you if you refuse to talk to them. Like if they call you up wanting to try and make a deal and you ignore them by clicking on 'No, not right now', or you refuse to recognize their envoy when they want to sign peace. I tried this a few times, but did not see any decay in attitude. However, the 'recent trade' bonus would disappear if you haven't traded with a civ lately, so if they want to make an offer, you should talk to them, just to get updated on what they have, and do a small trade (like trading maps).
     
  9. SirPleb

    SirPleb Shaken, not stirred.

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    I've been working on a practice game toward a milked diplomatic win and it looks like there's still more in this area to be explored; my first attempt has resulted in a furious Civ where I thought they'd be polite, sigh.

    I'm now experimenting a bit with the effects of war, using a PTW debug mode scenario - thanks for that tip as well as everything else Bamspeedy! I'm not done exploring yet but thought I'd post some initial observations. (I may be a late starter on GOTM18, I want the info from a bit more exploration before I start that :) )

    Some early observations follow, I'll post more if I work out anything further:

    1) Each enemy unit you destroy during a war seems to cost a few hit points in attitude. So far I've seen them cost from 3 to 5 points. I'm not sure what is making the difference. (Note: the way I'm checking this is to start a war, then wait in a strongly defended position until the enemy will negotiate for peace so that I can see their diplomatic status, then trying various things and seeing how the status changes.)

    2) Enemy units destroyed because they attack me inter-turn result in an attitude hit apparently the same as if I'd attacked them.

    3) The lost in attitude from warfare appears to decay over time. It isn't clear at all what the rate of decay is but it does appear to be non-linear.

    4) There appears to be no attitude loss with other (un-involved) Civs due to destroying enemy units in a war.

    5) The loss of attitude with third-party Civs due to razing or abandoning an enemy city does not appear to be recoverable, i.e. it does not seem to decay over time.

    6) Abandoning a city whose population is 50% or more foreign nationals causes the same attitude hit as razing a city as far as un-involved Civs are concerned. I.e. it seems to cost 1 point with every Civ.
     
  10. SirPleb

    SirPleb Shaken, not stirred.

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    I've taken my war testing as far as I intend to for the moment. Have a few more observations to add to this thread:

    To get someone's vote at the UN it is necessary to have them "polite". Barely polite (at -1) is sufficient. But if they're at zero (cautious) or worse they will abstain rather than vote for you. I'm not sure what the rule is if a Civ is polite to two or more candidates. I think it is a fairly safe bet that they vote for the one they have the best relations with.

    The effects of acts of war are very difficult to analyze but I do now have some general results. These are effects on the target Civ, none of this affects relations with Civs not involved in the war.

    Destroying enemy units results in a drop in attitude. The amount of the drop for each destroyed unit seems variable, I haven't worked out what the rule is. One thing which is clear - the more units destroyed, the less the visible change in attitude for each additional one destroyed. There seems to be a "capping" effect though I did not find an absolute limit.

    Starving enemy citizens also results in a drop in attitude, +1 for each citizen starved. Note that this effect occurs whether at war or not.

    The penalty for the above acts decays over time but does not decay linearly. You can recover relations entirely after making peace if you did just a bit of damage. If you do a lot of damage it does not seem possible to ever recover relations. Some examples to quantify this a bit:

    1) I killed 16 enemy units, then made peace. The penalty to relations was +17. After 18 turns of peace the penalty had disappeared entirely, all was forgiven.

    2) I killed 21 enemy units, captured two cities, starved 6 citizens, then made peace. The penalty to relations was +30. For about 30 turns of peace it stayed at +30. Then it went down by one every fifteen turns or so for a while, then dropped rapidly such that after 95 turns relations had fully recovered.

    3) I killed many enemy units (40 at a guess), took six cities, starved about 10 citizens, then made peace. The penalty to relations was +45. After over 100 turns of peace relations had not recovered by even a single point.

    My tentative conclusion from all this is that it is not practical to get a UN vote from a Civ you've essentially conquered. To get their vote it would be necessary to offset a very large attitude penalty (say from +40 to +50 depending on the size of the Civ when you take all their cities but one.) A penalty that large could only be offset by using every good thing available plus multiple alliances against other Civs. And that would mean leaving four, six, or more Civs to the end for the vote which would complicate things a lot - more than one Civ would have to be manipulated into being barely polite to still have a majority.

    For a milked UN win (with a polite one town captive Civ at the end) it seems necessary to use other Civs during the game to wear down the intended "friend". It would be possible to take one or two cities from your "friend" to get them down to a last single city. But other Civs must be maneuvered into doing most of the work. So despite all our new knowledge of AI attitude, milked UN wins are going to remain challenging...

    A few other minor points:

    The "decay" rate of the attitude bonus for gifts appears to be +1 per turn.

    There is another attitude factor which comes into play during war. There seems to be a very short term additional penalty for acts of war (killing enemy units) which adds as much as another +10 to the attitude. But this factor always decays very quickly and I haven't included it in the numbers above.

    There is a +10 attitude penalty from the target Civ when you enter an alliance against it. (This is on top of all other war effects.) This +10 is temporary, disappearing entirely when your alliance ends.
     
  11. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    Yes... Each 10 gold worth of gifts is worth 1 point, and the donation of gifts decays at 10 gold/turn, so that would be +1/turn (once your donations have dropped below 100 gold you'll see the loss, since it's capped at 100 gold). So if you donate 10 gold, it will be completely forgotten the next turn. If you donate 500 gold, then 40 turns later you'll start losing 1 point/turn. If you really want someone at their best for very long, donate 100 gold, then donate a 10 gold/turn deal and renew that every 20 turns. By the time the deal ends, the attitude would start dropping if you don't renew the deal.

    I didn't think to check if starving citizens causes an attitude hit, that interesting to know, Sir Pleb!

    On your point #3 (damage done during war), I wonder if it's just that it takes so much longer because of all the damage you did. Like in my tests, I donated very large sums, so I didn't see the drop in points. I mean if I donated 5000 gold, I wouldn't see the drop until 500 turns later! Perhaps the damage was so great that it takes longer than 100 turns, so it's technically not 'permanent', but you might as well call it permanent because of how long it takes to recover it. And to try for diplomatic, you would probably have to steer away from using starvation (I know that's alot harder because of culture flips on deity).
     
  12. EMan

    EMan HOFer: Milk-Cow?

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    .............don't they have to program this stuff according to specs?

    Just a passing thought! ;)

    BTW, analysis work by Bamspeedy & SirPLeb deserves a :goodjob: :goodjob:
     
  13. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    Does this mean that if you nuke someone, you not only get the +26 (was that the figure for the guy you nuked?) hit but also +1 for every citizen you kill and +? for every soldier?
     
  14. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    How it is possible to get digit information about AI attitude?
    My scrren advisor only says "Polite, gracious, Annoyed ets.) But exact number would be useful.
     
  15. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    yeah get these numbers when playing in Debug mode, a cheat/debug mode for testing PtW scenarios.
     
  16. groove311

    groove311 Chieftain

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    Hey guys is there any cheat program to change AI attitude? If there is it would be nice. I want to make AI's fight each other and I supply them tech, gold etc.
     
  17. groove311

    groove311 Chieftain

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    Hey guys is there any cheat program to change AI attitude? If there is it would be nice. I want to make AI's fight each other and I supply them tech, gold etc.
     
  18. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Deity Retired Moderator

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    Is there any effect on AI attitude toward you if you sink one of their privateers? I did that once to Japan (I knew it was their privateer because it stacked with Japanese naval units) and Tokugawa's attitude dropped from polite to annoyed.
     
  19. ControlFreak

    ControlFreak Not An Addict, Really

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    @bootstoots

    Read through the thread! Someone stated that the privateer attack was the same as killing a unit of a civ you're at war with. Not sure what their testing was.
     
  20. Strider

    Strider In Retrospect

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    Wow!!!

    Good job.... Need to remember this.... I have huge problems with the AI's being mad at me.
     

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