AI Knows Where Your Units Are

[spa]

Well I kind of suspected this, but now I have proof. The AI knows when you have units on top of a resource. I don't know if that means they know where all your units are or not, but they do definitely know when they're sitting on a resource. How do I know this for certain? I ran a test.

In my game the Arabs have declared war on me. It's an age of sail battle since I slowed tech down and it's an archipegalo map (I have my own island continent). The Arabs have a fleet of three frigates and three galleons that landed an invasion force in Setia, a city on an isolated island, that I then had to retake. Having unloaded the troops the Arab fleet then started to pillage my coast. To make them work for it, I moved three galleons down to sit on top of a fish resource off of Satricum. The Arabs don't want to fight my galleons so they ran away. The second my galleons move though they come back. I have verified this by sitting on the resource and not having the Arab fleet return and moving one square off of it and having the Arab fleet come back. It seems possible to tie up the Arab fleet forever by doing this (the AI's cheating becomes a bit of an exploit really when you know about it).

Now just for all you apologists, the Arabs are a different religion, they're the worst civ going and they're all the way across the world so no religious line of sight is possible and, even if they have the tech to build Scotland Yard and have actually built the wonder, they would still have to get a spy to my island continent. Also, they can't be doubling back to see if I'm near the resource because their fleet moves well out of range. So the AI shouldn't be able to see if I'm on the resource or not, but yet it knows.

Now I don't think it's too big a deal as I accept that the AI needs some help to compete, but this seems a bit much. I don't mind the AI getting bonuses, but I do kind of find one set of rules for it and one set for me a little annoying. Civ4 is a great game and this has been my first moment of disappointment in it.

Unfortunately, I can't share my sav file because it is 539 KB while these forums will only allow a 500 KB file. When zipped or in winrar format, my save still comes in at about 505 so it's just barely too big. I do have the save though. If anyone wants to see it for themselves, I'll happily e-mail it.

 

[spa]

I managed to upload my save file on Apolyton. I think you need to be a member of the site to get it, but if anyone is interested in seeing the file for themselves just go to the first page of this apolyton thread

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=4142616#post4142616

The file is availabe in the second post. Again I think you need to be an apolyton member to get it, but don't worry it's free. If you download it, to see what I'm talking about move the fleet of three galleons by Satricum off of the fish or leave them where they are. The Arab fleet will either appear or stay away depending on which you decide to do. Reverse your decision next turn and watch the Arabs respond accordingly. I think I could probably keep their fleet in transition indefinitely.

 

[Junuxx]

I thought the devs assured that the AI was blind this time

 

[MrCynical]

The AI is blind as far as the map goes, which is a BIG improvement over Civ 3 and was supposed to be blind to units out of it's visual range as well. Unfortunately there is growing evidence that the latter is not the case, though the AI doesn't seem to be showing it's old habit of marching all across your empire to your most weakly defended city.

 

[Meffy]

The AI appears to be blind to settlements. In my first (and so far only) Civ IV game, Cyrus sent a galleon around exploring the many islands on the other side of the world from our starting continents. My colonization effort was already begun when I first saw his ship. By the time he'd made a settler and loaded it onto a ship to carry 'round I'd thoroughly colonized all the islands and there were no tiles left where he could plant a city. Still his settlement ship kept coming, landed its charges in the spot where he'd apparently expected to found a city, and departed. The Persian settler and its defending unit moved a few squares, then just sat there for the rest of the game. I suppose they did odd jobs for local farmers to earn their sandwiches and beer.

Civ III's AI players clearly "saw" things far remote from any observer under their control. I could tie up a ship with settlers for decades by moving a ground unit onto the square they wanted to settle, then off, then on... cat and mouse. (But which of us was really the mouse? Was I perhaps playing the AI's game? *ponder* Naaaah.)

 

[karadoc]

To me it looks like the AI cheats in this way.
Today the AI declared war on me, and showed up with the bulk of their army at one of my cities with almost no defenders. I'm ashamed to say it, but I loaded an autosave so that I could send some troups to that city before the AI got there. But the next time, the AI shows up at a different town, the one I moved the troups away from.
This suggests that the AI is cheating.
(but I don't hold it against them, in this case I was cheating as well! reloading to avoid losing a city is pretty cheep. Don't do it.)

 

[onedreamer]

[...]Still his settlement ship kept coming, landed its charges in the spot where he'd apparently expected to found a city, and departed. The Persian settler and its defending unit moved a few squares, then just sat there for the rest of the game. I suppose they did odd jobs for local farmers to earn their sandwiches and beer.

I don't think this is the case. In my last game, the AI unloaded his settler and his archer on a small island before any city was founded there, there was nothing stopping the AI from settling, however the 2 units were still and not doing anything, so much that I had all the time to build a settler and send it there and found my city instead. Incidentally, the AI was the Persians too. There might be some problems with Persians ? Because I've seen other Civs colonizing islands with no problem.

 

[e_a_olson]

Do they have a line of sight on your units? If so, is it not reasonable to expect that if the AI can see you sitting on a resource, that he should see you when you move off it as well?

 

[Mazruk]

I don't think this is the case. In my last game, the AI unloaded his settler and his archer on a small island before any city was founded there, there was nothing stopping the AI from settling, however the 2 units were still and not doing anything, so much that I had all the time to build a settler and send it there and found my city instead. Incidentally, the AI was the Persians too. There might be some problems with Persians ? Because I've seen other Civs colonizing islands with no problem.

I've seen Catherine sat on a 2 square island with a settler and an archer for thousands of years doing nothing. Maybe they were waiting for the economy to be able to afford to place the city? :shrug:

 

[player1 fanatic]

I think AI does not know this.
Othwesie he would with his hordes of dozen stacks of units attack my weaker cities with just unit or two, not the one with dozen of my units stacked inside.

 

[Meffy]

In my last game, the AI unloaded his settler and his archer on a small island before any city was founded there, there was nothing stopping the AI from settling, however the 2 units were still and not doing anything, so much that I had all the time to build a settler and send it there and found my city instead.

Weirder still. I'm mystified. As is Cyrus, apparently.

 

[Pentium]

I think AI does not know this.
Othwesie he would with his hordes of dozen stacks of units attack my weaker cities with just unit or two, not the one with dozen of my units stacked inside.

Maybe it just pretends it doesn't. Like in Civ3, when it bought maps from you, even though they knew everything about it before.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

To me it looks like the AI cheats in this way.
Today the AI declared war on me, and showed up with the bulk of their army at one of my cities with almost no defenders. I'm ashamed to say it, but I loaded an autosave so that I could send some troups to that city before the AI got there. But the next time, the AI shows up at a different town, the one I moved the troups away from.
This suggests that the AI is cheating.
(but I don't hold it against them, in this case I was cheating as well! reloading to avoid losing a city is pretty cheep. Don't do it.)

Well was that city next to the border between the two of you... because they could possibly see units in the city if it was close to your border.

 

[spa]

Just to quickly cover things (I thought I did but seems not). Saladin shouldn't know that my galleons are on the resource because:

A. He's budhist and I'm Hindu and the only Indian city that's also in the area is also Hindu and even if it were Budhist it's a fair chunk away.
B. He's moving his maximum distance from two squares away to well out of range so he doesn't have a line of sight.
C. It can't be spies because Saladin is the weakest civ and even if he has the tech and used his resources to build Scotland Yard he would still have to sail a spy all the way over the my ocean continent. Unlikely to say the least.
D. It's not line of sight promotions on the naval unit because when the fleet comes near, you can see what promotions he has by hovering the cursor over the units. Saladin just has the old AI stapple, +10% strength.
E. I haven't traded a map to anyone in some while so no one should be able to see from that. Even if it were a map trade, those are temporary so he shouldn't be able to see the galleons for every turn there after.
F. Finally, it can't be subs as Saladin is backwards. His top naval unit are frigates. I don't think anyone has subs yet except maybe India.

I don't know what else I can say. Go download the save file from Apolyton and move the three fleet galleon and workboat one square off and watch them come or stay away. Try it for yourself if you don't believe me or doubt. Once you get a look at the game file it'll be crystal clear that the AI knows when the galleons are on top of the resource and when they're not and that their is no other explanation.

EDIT: Just confirmed that the same goes for workboats. If I leave my lone little workboat on the resource Saladin's fleet won't come near but if I move the workboat he will. So not only does the AI know when there are units on sea resources but it's dumb as a post and can't tell the difference between a galleon and a workboat. Based on my finding here, it might prove possible to defend your coastal resources with workboats! More testing is needed to determine that.

 

[Eyemaze]

can't you open the game in the world editor and set the ai to human controlled so you can see whether or not he can see you by some means or other; otherwise it is just speculation no?

 

[karadoc]

Well was that city next to the border between the two of you... because they could possibly see units in the city if it was close to your border.

No, but I've just thought of something else that would explain my situation. I don't have the save-game anymore, but I suspect that my cities may have had a religion whos holy city belonged to the AI. I was just reading the manual for the first time. Apparently if a player has a holy city, then they can see all other cities with that religion. So the AI probably wasn't cheating in my case afterall.