AI not expanding?

[pipeora]

I've been a fan of C2C for years and had just come back to the new version a while ago, after being away from c2c for 1.5 years. I opened a space map, hoping to set my empire through the universe.
During my first plays these time I found the AI seems to have problem expanding their empires. I know there's usually a lag for AIs in building new Tribes/Settlers, but as I remember it won't be as late as well in the Ancient Age.
In my first play the AI did not expand at all. I downloaded the most recent SVN (10264 then), and had a second run. This time one of the AIs did settled a second city. I updated my SVN to 10267 and got back to game. After I loaded the saves, in about 100 turns, all AIs stopped expanding again, including the one who was right building a Tribe the moment I saved previously.
Does anyone got an idea what was happening and how to solve it?
Thanks a lot to the C2C team and members of the forum!

 

[raxo2222]

On what handicap are you playing?
Even kid could outrun Noble/Prince AI, if he played Civilization before.
Monarch/Emperor/Immortal are good for semicausal players.
Deity/Nightmare is good for those, who love to abuse things,

This may be cache issue too, delete it.
Its here: C:\Users\<USERNAME>\AppData\Local\My Games\Beyond the Sword

AI is very reluctant of building tribes and building/utilizing gatherers.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Make sure not to use the Aggressive AI setting.

 

[raxo2222]

Make sure not to use the Aggressive AI setting.

Wasn't Agressive/Ruthless AI setting disabled?
Minor civs game option has similar damaging impact.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Wasn't Agressive/Ruthless AI setting disabled?
Minor civs game option has similar damaging impact.

Was it? Cool.

I'm not sure what would be causing this reluctance to expand. It only happens on some games/maps. Haven't figured out when and why and it's a nightmare to look into.

 

[raxo2222]

Was it? Cool.

Yep, they are disabled.

I marked Revolutions, Barbarian World and Raging Barbarian options as bad for AI too.

 

[pipeora]

On what handicap are you playing?
Even kid could outrun Noble/Prince AI, if he played Civilization before.
Monarch/Emperor/Immortal are good for semicausal players.
Deity/Nightmare is good for those, who love to abuse things,

This may be cache issue too, delete it.
Its here: C:\Users\<USERNAME>\AppData\Local\My Games\Beyond the Sword

AI is very reluctant of building tribes and building/utilizing gatherers.

Will try deleting the cache right away. Should I delete the cache every time I play?
I'm using flexible difficulty, started from Prince. I think my it has now increased to Emporer.
And I think the Aggressive AI option is not there any more.
Thanks a lot you guys!

Update: after 30 mins of playing with cache deleted, there's still no trace of AI founding new cities or building new settlers.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Will try deleting the cache right away. Should I delete the cache every time I play?
I'm using flexible difficulty, started from Prince. I think my it has now increased to Emporer.
And I think the Aggressive AI option is not there any more.
Thanks a lot you guys!

Update: after 30 mins of playing with cache deleted, there's still no trace of AI founding new cities or building new settlers.

1st things 1st, What Game Speed and Difficulty are you playing?
2nd Did you start the Game in Prehistoric Era?
3rd Tribalism is the 1st tech in Prehistoric Era that allows the build of the 1st settler type units the Tribe. Most players can build at least 3 Cities by the Time they reach Ancient Era/Sedentary Lifestyle Tech. This Tech gives the 1st Settler unit and 1st non perishable worker.
4th The AI expands properly with the current SVN. But you seem to be expecting them to expand way too early. And this can be tied into the question of The Game Speed selected for the game. Unless you are playing Ultra the Test Game speed you will Not see any AI building their 2nd city in Prehistoric era after 30 minutes of gameplay. Just does not happen and is Game design.

So until you answer some of these questions, so we can give the proper answers, we wait on your reply.

 

[pipeora]

1st things 1st, What Game Speed and Difficulty are you playing?
2nd Did you start the Game in Prehistoric Era?
3rd Tribalism is the 1st tech in Prehistoric Era that allows the build of the 1st settler type units the Tribe. Most players can build at least 3 Cities by the Time they reach Ancient Era/Sedentary Lifestyle Tech. This Tech gives the 1st Settler unit and 1st non perishable worker.
4th The AI expands properly with the current SVN. But you seem to be expecting them to expand way too early. And this can be tied into the question of The Game Speed selected for the game. Unless you are playing Ultra the Test Game speed you will Not see any AI building their 2nd city in Prehistoric era after 30 minutes of gameplay. Just does not happen and is Game design.

So until you answer some of these questions, so we can give the proper answers, we wait on your reply.

I meant 30 mins after I loaded the previous save. I play on Epic with upscaled prod and tech, with flexible difficulty. (Current difficulty is Monarch I guess.)

Well here's one of the game saves. I play as South America in the space map, which starts in a relatively bad location. So my tech is, I think, average, and I have reached Ancient Era. As you can see only the Neandethal expanded for 1 city at around "8000BC", before I updated SVN. And then everyone stopped expanding. I think the Australians built a Tribe that had never been put to use.

 

[JosEPh_II]

When did you start this game? And when was the last game you played before this one?

If this is your 1st game since coming back to C2C, and when you started using the new Official v38.5 release, did you clear the cache folder before you started? I would bet you did not because of the time in between this game and last game over the 1.5 years ago when you stopped playing. I know you have updated to the SVN. And if this is recent another reason to clear the cache folder. Old stored data that the game keeps to speed up the process will bite you every time.

Will try deleting the cache right away. Should I delete the cache every time I play?

If there has been a .DLL change then yes. If not no. But IF you have been away any length of time, then the cache needs deleted Before you start playing with any New version.

Old cache data will corrupt new games. And over the past 1.5 years there have been Major changes to the Mod, Major changes!

I will look at your game. But it may end up that you need to start a new game.

One last item, when you updated to SVN 10267 and started up the game, did the game ask you to do a Re-Calc? And if it did, did you click Yes? Never ignore a Re-Calc pop up!

 

[raxo2222]

I meant 30 mins after I loaded the previous save. I play on Epic with upscaled prod and tech, with flexible difficulty. (Current difficulty is Monarch I guess.)

Well here's one of the game saves. I play as South America in the space map, which starts in a relatively bad location. So my tech is, I think, average, and I have reached Ancient Era. As you can see only the Neandethal expanded for 1 city at around "8000BC", before I updated SVN. And then everyone stopped expanding. I think the Australians built a Tribe that had never been put to use.

I guess you should try to play on Monarch or Emperor from start.

All AIs are in Prehistoric era and you are in Ancient era.

Revolutions is bad for AI and are really only one-dimensional for players - all it does is destroying empires if crime goes too high.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I guess you should try to play on Monarch or Emperor from start.

All AIs are in Prehistoric era and you are in Ancient era.

Revolutions is bad for AI and are really only one-dimensional for players - all it does is destroying empires if crime goes too high.

@pipeora ,
Like Raxxo stated Rev is bad.

Observations:
You have only been in Ancient era for 2 or 3 Techs and since you are using DP must be using a GP for Druidic Traditions to get the Druid religion.
The AI is not into Ancient era tech yet. Your Flex start on Monarch gave you an advantage. Yes you are now at Emperor Diff and will probably go up to Immortal. You out did the AI in animal gathering for one thing. And you set your sights on rapid expansion, something the AI will not always do if conditions are not conducive to do so (a threat or a glaring need, close neighbors, etc.).
Because the Map you are using is Gigantic and thus the AI are generally very spread out (you and the Incas being the exception) they are not getting any help from Tech Diffusion (except your neighbor). Also WFL requires proximity to function as well. You are benefitting more from these 2 than the AIs (for the most part)
Starting with Developing leader and No Positive Traits only allows the AI to start with negative traits, which also slows them down.

Since the Upscaled Research Option was split out from the Upscaled production Option I am not sure it affects Player (Human) only any more.

Overall you are fretting over really nothing. At this stage of the game on a 6,000 turn GS with the Options you selected, and the Map used, your game is progressing accordingly and properly. It will take you several Eras to make contact with many of the other 5 AI you selected for this game. Of course you also got "lucky" by having the Inca very close to you. Your start position is one of the best for how you set this game up. By the time you meet your other opponents they will be fine.

Conclusion:
Stop looking into the WB and fretting over the AI development and just play. Or start a new game with some different Set Up Options. You Game is Fine.

 

[raxo2222]

Since the Upscaled Research Option was split out from the Upscaled production Option I am not sure it affects Player (Human) only any more.

Small correction:
Upscaled Production Cost always affected AI too.
This and Upscaled Research cost use different set of game speed definitions - those affect everyone.

There is fourth set of game speeds defined for when both Upscaled Research and Production Costs are selected.
Research cost never was upscaled by Upscaled Production option, if it did then someone broke this option back then.

By the way starting positions in scenarios are set by mapmakers - they aren't random.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Research cost never was upscaled by Upscaled Production option,

It was in the beginning when that Option was 1st introduced. And supposedly Only the Human player was affected by the Option. If it was changed in the .dll to affect the AI too, then that was done by a programmer later.

By the way starting positions in scenarios are set by mapmakers - they aren't random.

Understood and known. So by pipeora choosing the South American start, which he thought was bad, he actually selected a good starting Civ for that Map And the Number of AI he picked for it.

 

[raxo2222]

It was in the beginning when that Option was 1st introduced. And supposedly Only the Human player was affected by the Option. If it was changed in the .dll to affect the AI too, then that was done by a programmer later.

Yeah, that was changed long ago I guess - at certain point it was removed from DLL code and it is now purely XML option - it uses different set of gamespeeds if selected.
That could be very well years ago, when expression system was developed.

Understood and known. So by pipeora choosing the South American start, which he thought was bad, he actually selected a good starting Civ for that Map And the Number of AI he picked for it.

Yeah, there was only one AI on this continent - I think playing as Middle Eastern civ would be most challenging - roughly to west there are African/European civs and to east are Asian/Oceanian civs.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Also WFL requires proximity to function as well.

Just to clear this up, it does not require proximity nor even knowledge of the other players that are influencing your tech. It's purely a matter of overall game player to player comparison. However, it's not applicable yet to many AI because it doesn't have any effect until you enter the ancient era.

Starting with Developing leader and No Positive Traits only allows the AI to start with negative traits, which also slows them down.

Again, to clear this up, no players start with negative traits either with this setting. The first negative trait is earned at the 2nd trait selection and both the Human and AI are subject to this. The only reason the option wasn't named, Start with No Traits, is because if you play without Developing Leaders, you can have only Negative Traits by selecting Start with No Positive Traits. In combination, then, with No Negative Traits, you would have No Traits at all.

That said, I tend to agree with your overall assessment. If the AI aren't generally even in Ancient yet, it is not super surprising that they haven't begun spreading yet. Unlike a human player with his eye on spreading as fast as possible, once the AI CAN spread, it then starts building the escorts it will need for that THEN the tribe, THEN spreads if economically healthy enough to manage it. This makes it take a bit more time out the gate and a severely clogged map can both destroy settling attempts and can also hold off settling attempts if the AI feels under threat. Usually, however, once the AI has begun spreading, it can often start doing so quite quickly, astonishingly so in some cases.

 

[pipeora]

Thanks for the resolutions from all of you!
So, if I don't mind being spoiled by opening WorldBuilder, I may continue the recent game happily?
And by a bad start I also mean playing with the new world I'm literally blocked from a number of strategic resources. But it seems Americas on this map has horse? That's interesting.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Thanks for the resolutions from all of you!
So, if I don't mind being spoiled by opening WorldBuilder, I may continue the recent game happily?
And by a bad start I also mean playing with the new world I'm literally blocked from a number of strategic resources. But it seems Americas on this map has horse? That's interesting.

Not sure why you think on this Map scenario that you are "blocked" from strategic resources because you did not start in the "Old" world.

And Yes play away happily.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

Horses did exist in the Americas before.

https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2012/11/29/why-did-horses-die-out-in-north-america/