Al Gore: Hero or Hypocrite?

[Cheezy the Wiz]

He's obviously a hero, he gave us teh internets!

 

[RedWolf]

You can live a pretty green life if you try.

Someone showed me the below today. I was stunned - had never realized such a thing existed that worked that well (and with no detrement to the vehichle). Why hasn't this become more popular? Am I missing something or is this not the solution to all the problems derived from North America's "car culture"?

http://www.greasecar.com

 

[Scuffer]

The amount of acreage needed would be huge unfortunately, but it's a good start. Diesel engines were orginally designed to run on allsorts, I believe.

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

Turns out not only is it a hitpiece, but the Ten. Policy Center or whatever is a Swift-Boat-like astroturf group.

Classy.

 

[FriendlyFire]

You cant honestly believe this can you? Are you trying to tell me that his $30k a year bill is justified since he takes steps to keep the footprint down from what could be a $45k a year bill?

Please, I dont care HOW many solar panels or light bulbs he puts in - the MAN IS STILL CONSUMING MORE THAN 20 AVG FAMILIES COMBINED. So WHAT if he saved x a year with cost efficient light bulbs?

Its not like Bush is using the very same maths on the economy debt ?
(By saying he halved it compared to a "pojected" debt)

I agree call a spade a spade.
If only you applied the same standards to Bush, Gay preachers, corrupt republican cronies and utterly competent sec of defence

 

[carlosMM]

Solar cells, under our current technology, consume more fossil fuels to produce than they save during their lifetime.

FALSE, this is a lie promoted by the oil industries, nothing more.

FACT: payback time for polycryatalline cells: 2.5 years, monocrystalline cells 5 years. And that was in 1997!

Source:
J. Nijs et al. (1997): Energy Payback Time of Crystalline Silicon Solar Modules - Advances in Solar Energy, Boulder, CO USA; vol. 11, 1997

and more sources:

Adam, T.; Schieferdecker, B.: Methodik im Rahmen produktorientuerter Betrachtungen. Energiewirtschaftliche Tagesfragen 47.Jg. (1997) Heft 11, S. 678-682
Adler, U.: Energetische Amortisation. Sonnenenergie 6/93, S. 10-12
Alsema, E.A.; Frankl, P.; Kato, K.: Energy pay-back Time of Photovoltaic Energy Systems: Present Status and Prospects. 2nd Word Conference and Exhibition on Photovoltaic Solar Energy Conversion. Vienna, 6-10 July 1998, S. 2125-2130.
Hagedorn, G.: Kumulierter Energieverbrauch und Erntefaktoren von Photovoltaik-Systemen. Energiewirtschaftliche Tagesfragen 39.Jg. (1989) Heft 11, S. 712-718

interesting, but in German (you can read the tables, though):
http://www.volker-quaschning.de/datserv/kev/index.html


what a quick google search can do!

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

Its not like Bush is using the very same maths on the economy debt ?
(By saying he halved it compared to a "pojected" debt)

I agree call a spade a spade.
If only you applied the same standards to Bush, Gay preachers, corrupt republican cronies and utterly competent sec of defence

Please, MobBoss already reminded us once to stay on topic.

The topic being, natch: how a phony Swift-Boat-type group decieved MobBoss into posting an incorrect hitpiece about a subject he doesn't actually understand.

 

[carlosMM]

By the way, I do know a family that's covered their roof with solar panels. Over the period of each year, they actually have a net income from selling electricity back to the grid. They also have an electric car. And some fancy thermal thing where they pump water to the roof to be sunheated to warm their house at night.

It was a VERY expensive investment but in 7 years they made it back and now they're making money from it. Obviously not for everyone - they live in the Silicon Valley where it's sunny (more power) and urban (less driving) - but it does prove MobBoss wrong. You can live a pretty green life if you try.

I live in rather rainy Germany. Here, I know at least 10 people who have a solar module / warm water heat exchange unit on the roof. I see about 20 of them every day...... cities, towns, villages are full of them. They cost around 4.200 € apiece today and pay off energetically after about 3 years with today's modern cells and financially after about 5.

 

[Irish Caesar]

FALSE, this is a lie promoted by the oil industries, nothing more.

My mistake, and an ironic one considering that I'm one of the most vocal supporters of not-carbon-based energy sources on these boards...

 

[carlosMM]

My mistake, and an ironic one considering that I'm one of the most vocal supporters of not-carbon-based energy sources on these boards...

no worries - while they have been spending tons of money with their lobbyists to spread this lie, the press has caught on (at least in Germany) and is full of news about how good solar cells have become. It is a bit like Big Tobacco's lies - running dry!

 

[Xenocrates]

Carlos are you sure about those payback times?


I have figures of (UK):

80 years financial for PV (crystal not amorphous)

14-15 years for carbon. I think this assumes made in China.

Life expectancy of around 20 years (they slowly degrade so this is rough)



Are they including all of the carbon from mining the silicon ore upwards? If you're right I'll have to change my view on it (obviously). I've always been a 'thermal man'.

 

[carlosMM]

Carlos are you sure about those payback times?

I am sure. The number you have are probably from the 60s - exactly the stuff the oil and coal firms love to trumpet out, always 'forgetting' to give the year

And hell yes I am sure: Würth corporation is making a fortune from solar cells in a new factory in nearby Marbach. Tell me: if the cell uses more energy in production than it gives, how can it pay to produce them and amortize them by selling the power they produce? Unsubsidized?

btw, the solar cells I will next year put on MY roof are GUARANTEED for a 25 year life time at 80% of nominal effectivity rate, in yearly average. Means that if they fail to reach 80% of the promised rate during their 25th year, I get new ones. Seems the 20 year lifetime is old news, things have changed a bit

Würth makes 1.5 sqm modlues, btw. Also a far cry from what one used to get 10 or even 5 years ago.

 

[Xenocrates]

Hmmm what about mining and milling the silicon from Mongolia? What about purifying it to 6N or to 8N? There's a lot of very thirsty work to do before the cell stage and I'm just not sure whether this has been included. I've spoken to a lot of environmentalists about this and the consensus seems to be that PV isn't environmentally friendly. Not oil barons but environmentalists.

Maybe my numbers are wrong - will do further research!

 

[carlosMM]

Hmmm what about mining and milling the silicon from Mongolia? What about purifying it to 6N or to 8N? There's a lot of very thirsty work to do before the cell stage and I'm just not sure whether this has been included.

It has. And nobody today really builds the cells from thick, solid silicone wafers anymore. Würth solar actually just opened the first factory for mass production of silicium free panels.

I've spoken to a lot of environmentalists about this and the consensus seems to be that PV isn't environmentally friendly. Not oil barons but environmentalists.

funny people. Uninformed, it seems. Well, I have done my homework on the stuff.

http://www.wuerth-solar.de/website/frames,LA,DE,KA,226.php?parLANG=EN

 

[ainwood]

Moderator Action: Alright - cease the trolling. Address people points, not guess at their motives. In fact, don't discuss each other AT ALL.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Disenfrancised]

I am fully aware that he purchases it and still outuses more than 20 avg families.

Lets put it this way, if you say you can eat everything within sight because its all 'healthy' food you will still end up obese. There is a point where you can consume so much lo-cal food as to out-calorie the high-cal stuff you decry.

Thats what we see here. Al Gore effectively consumes SO MUCH energy it utterly removes any offsets he has.

Joke Question: Do you believe Al Gore lives alone in a room full lightbulbs?

Its a twenty room mansion, alot of people live there, he's a famous politian and movie producer who is likly to host lots of guests, parties and movie showings. Comparing his situation with the 'average' household, which is much smaller, is a false comparsion. Breaking news - rich people spend alot of money!

Also he apparently spends $432 a month on a premium that ensures his energy comes from renewable sources

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

I hate people who call him a "leftist." Americans seem to have no real idea what a real leftist is, you get the same neoconservatives recycled over and over again somehow managing to convince them that they're "left" or "right."

 

[JollyRoger]

This is not to bash Cheney, just to make a comparison, to put Al Gore's use in context:

An "innocuous" attempt by Rep. Jay Inslee to block the Navy from paying the full electric bill at Vice President Dick Cheney's official residence ignited a searing debate yesterday on the House floor.

. . .

Cheney is the Bush administration's leading voice on energy matters and architect of an energy plan that relies heavily expanding oil, gas and coal exploration to address energy shortages.

The administration, and Cheney in particular, have been sharply criticized in the West for their refusal to take aggressive steps to reining in electricity costs.

Democrats say shifting responsibility for Cheney's electric bill from the vice president's operating budget to the Navy would insulate him from the realities faced by "regular people" who are coping with sharply higher electricity costs. The administration earmarked $186,000 for those costs for the next fiscal year.

"My constituents can't send their bills for skyrocketing electric bills to the U.S. Navy," Inslee said from the floor, noting that cost of electricity has gone up as much as 60 percent for some people living in his district.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/32695_vp26.shtml

$186,000 > $30,000. Plus, Cheney's use is on the taxpayer dime.

Now consider these points regarding Al and Tipper Gore's (and Cheney's also, to be fair) use that makes them different than the average consumer of energy:

they have a relatively large home

they have two home based offices

they have staff helping in various capacities

they have numerous visitors (family, friends, former and present coworkers, those working with the Gores on global warming and other issues, politicians)

where feesible, they use green energy which costs more than carbon-based energy

They likely have a security staff to maintain

Plus they probably host regular & relatively large gatherings about all sorts of issues




Do you think the average person could run two businesses and host numerous gatherings while using the same amount of energy of a typical household?

 

[GrandAdmiral]

The only valid excuse for using tons of power is having lots of computers in your home. If his usage was because he had tons of computers and servers running in his house then I would say great, but if this is for lighting then he's a hypocrite. He could still be a hero and a hypocrite though. There's more details to consider like how many people live there, if he's hosting others for the cause, etc.

 

[CaptainF]

I don't think he's a hero in the least.

What he says about Global Warming might be true, but he does blow a lot of energy on travel and such.