Al mvp?
- Thread starter .Shane.
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I think you right.
The triple crown is an amazing feat... and he did lead/help his team to the playoffs.
Like my dad used to tell me when I complained about losing in youth sports- "If you had hit 5 HRs (or scored 4 TDs/etc) yall probably would have won"
Trout has an excellent chance of winning one... and soon. I go Cabrera now that I think about it more.
The triple crown is an amazing feat... and he did lead/help his team to the playoffs.
Like my dad used to tell me when I complained about losing in youth sports- "If you had hit 5 HRs (or scored 4 TDs/etc) yall probably would have won"
Trout has an excellent chance of winning one... and soon. I go Cabrera now that I think about it more.
El Justo
Deity
can not ignore the triple crown. what an incredible feat in today's day and age, specialist relievers etc. just a real testament to cabrera and his ability to smash baseballs.
i do really like Trout though. he is receiving a ton of press here, locally. he grew up about a half hour from where i live and he's heralded. seems like a real cool kid, too. humble, down to earth, and gritty, just the way we like'em here
addit : dg, heard on the radio yesterday that Trout's dad played minor league ball and one of his managers was charlie manuel.
i do really like Trout though. he is receiving a ton of press here, locally. he grew up about a half hour from where i live and he's heralded. seems like a real cool kid, too. humble, down to earth, and gritty, just the way we like'em here
addit : dg, heard on the radio yesterday that Trout's dad played minor league ball and one of his managers was charlie manuel.
The SABRmetrics arguments are pretty clear, but it can be broken down even more simply:
In terms of "at the plate", slight edge to Cabrera
Base-running: Huge edge to Trout
Defense: Huge edge to Trout
The idea that being on a 1st place team matters: negated by the fact that Trout's team had more wins and played in a tougher division.
Should be Trout, will be Cabrera.
Triple Crown is very cool, but I could just as easily come up w/ an equally impressive trifecta for Trout that has happened maybe 2 or 3 times in history....
In terms of "at the plate", slight edge to Cabrera
Base-running: Huge edge to Trout
Defense: Huge edge to Trout
The idea that being on a 1st place team matters: negated by the fact that Trout's team had more wins and played in a tougher division.
Should be Trout, will be Cabrera.
Triple Crown is very cool, but I could just as easily come up w/ an equally impressive trifecta for Trout that has happened maybe 2 or 3 times in history....
Lambert Simnel
One across
Yeah, but it's not any old "impressive trifecta" that Cabrera won - it was the single trifecta which people use above all else as the face-value benchmark of a great season.
Can't say I think it's terribly important at all, to be honest, thus I'm fine about them going with the face value thing of the Triple Crown winner
Can't say I think it's terribly important at all, to be honest, thus I'm fine about them going with the face value thing of the Triple Crown winner
Darkness
Shadow creature
A great season batting, you mean. There is so much more to baseball than just batting. Batting is just the easiest one to quantify...
I'd vote for Trout. His trifecta of leading the league in WAR, runs and stolen bases is even rarer than Cabrera's.
Lambert Simnel
One across
Yep, one to tell your grandchildren about, eh?
Darkness
Shadow creature
My daughter isn't even two years old yet and you want me to consider talking to my grandchildren already?
Please let me stay in the "young parent" category for a while, OK? 
My point was merely that Cabrera's achievement is very rare, but Trout's is even rarer. And although Cabrera's trifecta is better known (although IMHO RBI's are more of a team stat than an individual stat), Trout's achievement is more (IMHO!) difficult.
Especially his 10.7 WAR is amazing. Only Cal Ripken and Joe Morgan have had better WAR seasons since 1970 than Mike Trout did this year (I am intentionally omitting Barry Bonds juiced 2001 and 2002 numbers). I think that's an amazing achievement, worthy of an MVP vote, IMHO...
El Justo
Deity
the triple crown is THE Holy Grail for batters. no way it is diminished. it is next to impossible to achieve. plus, his team went to post season. the age old question they ask re MVP is : where would his team be without him? we can almost certainly say no postseason, right? more middle of the pack.
don't get me wrong. i love trout. he's a sensation and a local hero. but triple crown is a triple crown imo. no getting around it. super-rare feat, worth an MVP imho.
trout will have his chances.
don't get me wrong. i love trout. he's a sensation and a local hero. but triple crown is a triple crown imo. no getting around it. super-rare feat, worth an MVP imho.
trout will have his chances.
Angels had a better record. Its chance that the Tigers were in a weaker division. If the Angels were 60-102, you might have a point.
Just as it's chance that Cabrera won the Triple Crown not just because he batted .330/44 bombs/139 RBIs, but also because no one batted .331 or hit 45 HRs or had 140 RBIs.
If Josh Hamilton hadn't tanked and, say, hit 45 bombs? What if Trout had all of 3 more hits, putting his BA at .331? Would either of these magically made Cabrera's season worse?
Of course not, but there are people with whom he'd of lost votes because, all of a sudden, he's not a Triple Crown winner.
That should not disqualify him, any more than there's the perception that some may have voted or supported him because he's the next big thing. (not saying this is your argument, but I've seen it offered).
In the end, I wish they could've split it. que se ra.
I think the most compelling argument in Miggy's favor is how he separated from other players down the stretch while Trout was merely human.
El Justo
Deity
i love your passion. i do i just flat out disagree 
cabrera gets the mvp imo even if he is a homer shy or a few ribbies off. no matter. monster, monster stats. and better than trouts from a run production stand point.
look at the voting. cabrera smoked him. so whatever it is that i'm writing here, the people with the votes must seem to agree.
i just flat out disagree cabrera gets the mvp imo even if he is a homer shy or a few ribbies off. no matter. monster, monster stats. and better than trouts from a run production stand point.look at the voting. cabrera smoked him. so whatever it is that i'm writing here, the people with the votes must seem to agree.
That's exactly why I think it should be trout. If you replaced Miggy with a league average player, given how crappy the AL Central was, there is still a good chance the Tigers make the playoffs. Without Trout, I think the Angles are close to Twins and Indians territory.
El Justo
Deity
saber stats should not determine MVP ballots. criteria for that stuff was set a long, long time ago. so the second i get a whiff of the new-fangled and extremely arbitrary stats, i look the other way. call me old fashioned. but for MVP voting, the criteria does not involve any WAR or and other garbage stat like that. yes, they have some value but not in MVP ballots.
cabrera's stats speak for them self. and obviously, the BBWAA think cabrera's stats were more worthy. i tend to agree. love trout to death. but i'm trying to remain consistent here.
folks can type till they are blue in the fingers and you will not convince me i enjoy the dialogue though, so long as it remains civil...
cabrera's stats speak for them self. and obviously, the BBWAA think cabrera's stats were more worthy. i tend to agree. love trout to death. but i'm trying to remain consistent here.
folks can type till they are blue in the fingers and you will not convince me
i enjoy the dialogue though, so long as it remains civil...
When I voted for Trout I forgot about the Triple Crown. "Oh yeah, that." So I'd agree with Miggy since that is a huge accomplishment. Even if Romo made him look silly in his last at bat of the season...
Lambert Simnel
One across
My daughter isn't even two years old yet and you want me to consider talking to my grandchildren already?
My point was merely that Cabrera's achievement is very rare, but Trout's is even rarer.
Sure for the young parent thing - enjoy it, cos it moves on very quickly!
Cabrera's achievement is against a set of criteria which were recognised as a set of cohesive stats twenty years ago - everyone knows what the Triple Crown is. Any "trifecta" or "alt-triple crown" for Trout is something which has been made up as a set at the end of the season to fit with Trout's stats. Hell of a season, I agree, but Miggy was the MVP because he won the Triple Crown, not some random "triple crown-like set of stats we've cobbled together now".
Lambert Simnel
One across
It wouldn't have made his season worse, but it would have made it less special. And if no-one wins the Triple Crown, then we can get into talking about WAR, or worrying about SBs.
In (proper) football, if someone scores a hat-trick, then he's the man-of-the match. Maybe a little bit tough on the midfield grafter or brilliant winger* who made it possible, but that's how it goes - there are certain things which are more visceral and exciting than others, and the guy who hits the most Home Runs in a season has it over the guy with, say, the highest defensive WAR for his position (without meaning in the least to decry how excellent a season the other had).
* I'm relying on you Yanks not knowing about the Matthews cup final when I make this remark - the exception that proves the rule and all that.
Darkness
Shadow creature
All good points, but my vote would be for Trout for 2 very simple reasons.
1 - the Triple Crown is a batters statistic. Sure, it's a great achievement, but there's so much more to baseball than just batting (defense and running the bases come to mind (in which Trout is so much better than Cabrera)).
2 - Trout led the league in the most important stat (IMHO): WAR. And he not only led the league in WAR, he posted the 3rd best WAR since 1970, with 10.7. Cabrera was only at 6.9. And that would be the clincher for me.
I'm not saying Cabrera didn't deserve the MVP. Sure he did, he had a fantastic season. Just IMHO Trout's was better....
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