Alarming silence of Firaxis

Wow - that was constructive. :rolleyes:

The only reality that we all need to rememeber is that Firaxis has NO legal/contractual obligation to even patch the game once. Once you fork over your hard earned cash for the game - that ends the official relationship you have with them. Period.

Although I was active in the late, great and closed previous thread Alexman started, I've stayed out of this one except to thank our Firaxian friend for the information he shared. However, in this debate of opinions, there are occasionally statements regarding facts which need to be addressed.

Your statement regarding Firaxis' post-sale legal obligations is, quite simply, wrong. The law gives purchasers certain rights over and above any contractual commitments and, importantly, even in the face of attempted disclaimers of those rights in a contract of sale or, in this case, a EULA. In some jurisdictions, such rights are codified by statute (e.g., the Uniform Commercial Code) and in others the rights are a matter of common law. Those rights include the implied warranty of fitness and the implied warranty of merchantability. The former is a warranty implied by law that if a seller knows or has reason to know of a particular purpose for which some item is being purchased by the buyer, the seller is guaranteeing that the item is fit for that particular purpose. In the latter, a merchant is guaranteeing that the goods are reasonably fit for the general purpose for which they are sold. So, in the case of software, if it doesn't work on a computer, the purchaser has grounds to claim against the seller/manufacturer. Although it's doubtful that minor bugs would rise to the level of a breach of either such warranty, too many such bugs, or one or more major bugs (e.g., the OOS problem) could certainly rise to that level. To put things into perspective, Merck was in no position to say -- despite conspicuous warnings and documented problems with the product -- that once they sold Vioxx to someone that the buyers who had heart attacks and strokes had no recourse. Suffice to say, dealing adequately with a defective product is not simply good business. It's the law.
 
I have no way of knowing but I bet you the majority of those who bought civ4 or BTS has already shelf the game by now and playing something else. (only a few are hardcore civ-fanatics) This is one reason consoles are so popular, play the game and forget just like a movie. But in cases where someone watchs a movie or play even a console game over and over will more likely to find serious flaws in the movie or game. For example my son found some serious flaws/bugs in Socom 2 after play it for months (now years) while the average gamer would be playing something else after finishing the single player.
Thus in most cases only a small minority plays the game long enough to find all the bugs in the game. So there comes a point where the company is making a patch for this small minority in which some you will never satisfy anyways.

You didn't exactly have to plat BtS, prepatched and patched, very long to disvover that it was buggy. Furthermore, news of the behaviour of a computer game manufacturer spreads, regardless of how many stll play the game regularly. And actually, I think the number of people who still play Civ may be quite considerable.
 
Yep I read stuff that I don't agree with, (LOL), as it tends to keep the grey cells working.

It's fascinating to see people's thought processes at work, and I am open minded enough to be swayed by a persuasive constructive argument, but there isn't much evidence of that in this thread.

No one forces you to buy CIV4. No one forces you to use the free patches that follow. No one forces you to buy the expansion BTS and no one forces you to use any of the free patches that relate to it.

So what's the problem?

Well, apparently the problem is that out of the tens and tens of thousands of people who bought the game, a truly insignificant / fractional number of people don't like the game and/or the patch. This is hardly surprising given the numbers of people who bought the game.

What is interesting about all this, is how those people then go about throwing their toys out of the pram. They could have crafted a reasoned constructive argument to support their views so as to elicit the sympathy of fellow gamers, and from that platform entered into a meaningful dialogue with the developers about their grievances. Or they could have created a movement within the MOD community to fix the perceived problem via a bit of DIY.

I have seen both methods used successfully on many, many occasions.

However, the aggrieved minority in this instance throw a massive temper tantrum that can be summarised as follows - "Life is unfair, and it's all your fault".

For the guys with the problem, life is unfair, because they didn't get what they wanted in the game/patch, but let's face if they had, then there would now be a completely different bunch of guys posting an exact same thread claiming that they didn't get what they wanted either.

What's interesting about all this is trying to fathom the mindset of the insignificant minority who stubbornly think life owes them something, and who don't understand that it doesn't. The rest of us understand we have to get what we want for ourselves, and we also know how to do it. They don't, but why don't they?

A simplistic explanation could be that the developer is seen as a sort of father / teacher figure in their eyes, and if the child screams and shouts and stamps their foot long enough, then the all powerful developer will magically make everything right and fair.

The trouble is that explanation is far to simplistic, so I read the destructive posts in this thread that will achieve nothing whatsoever and try and work out what makes these people tick. It passes the time - LOL.

The reason I intervened, is that the thread is now going around and around in circles, and has become very sterile. The content of the thread won't piss off the developer, because they live in the real world that these guys seem pretty clueless about, but you have to admit that this thread is as dead as the proverbial parrot.


Regards - Mr P
 
Umm, my point was that people (programmers) have not become perfect in the last 15 years. And they certainly don't think faster!

If anything has changed in the last 15 years, it's teh complexity of the Civilization product. So the most reasonable expectation is that, despite their best efforts, it would be HARDER to test & debug Civ, and take longer, not easier & quicker!

I couldnt do much than agree with you on this one. But my "whining" was more along the lack of information and their prioritizings. If you are satisfied with your current game, then you might be happy with future installments. But for my case Im far from content with my purchase, hence the "whining". People (read Firaxis) should know when they ...<Snip>... up...
 
I invariably find it interesting when a poster enters the discussion with what he or she believes to be the overarching truth not only about the discussion specifically, but life in general. As is often the case he/they hold themselves above the fray (after all, you must be above others in order to look down upon them), state opinion as fact, view dissimilar opinions with a bemused contempt and generally hold themselves out as the final arbiter of both the dispute itself and those engaged in it.

As a very recent example, Mr. P cites the freedom to choose whether to buy and play the game, but does so in a way which suggests that, once someone has made the choice to buy and play the game, he/she forfeits the right to comment upon its quality, or lack thereof. In three sentences he thereby dismisses all humanity's voice in commenting upon any discretionary product or service they've chosen to buy, from a meal at a pricey restaurant (one could hear him say: "no one forced you to choose that restaurant") to your home ("there were plenty of other houses in the neighborhood"); from the clothes you wear ("try another brand") to your entertainment choices ("if you're dissatisfied with CIV, watch a movie").

Without having done any research himself, nor citing any source (reputable or otherwise), he decides that those who are less then totally satisfied represent not only a "fraction" of all purchasers, but an "insignificant" fraction at that. He makes no allowance for those who have either not discovered fora such as CFC or have chosen not to participate in them. Nor does he allow for those purchasers who, being so dissatisfied with the product, have had the epiphany to which he refers and not only chosen to play the game no more (perhaps they're watching a movie right now), but have also chosen to waste no more time trying futilely to get the manufacturer to acknowledge their complaints, let alone address such complaints adequately.

He goes on to infantilize all those with complaints as "throwing their toys out of the pram" and "throwing temper tantrums," insisting (in his supercilious way) that they all have an unrealistic view of life and chiding them with the fatherly advice that "life is unfair." Not content with dismissing the complaints of one childish group with the back of one hand, he uses the other to dismiss yet another yet-unheard group whom he is certain would take the place of the first group if the first group were somehow to be satisfied.

He then elevates himself into a superior group of humans who "understand we have to get what we want for ourselves, and we also know how to do it," once again dismissing others "an insignificant minority" of untermenschen who "stubbornly think life owes them something, and who don't understand that it doesn't." He then brings his psychoanalytic prowess to bear concluding that this poor, wretched, "insignificant minority" of humanity is somehow searching for Daddy to make all things right. One can only imagine him standing up at a meeting America's Founding Fathers or in South Africa at a meeting of those fighting Apartheid and reminding them: "Life is unfair, you clueless, insignificant minority. Every other human being who has not raised his or her voice in protest is obviously perfectly satisfied with their lot, why aren't you? We understand that life owes us nothing, why don't you? You need to live in the real world and accept whatever you're given by the almighty powers that be! You should all go home and choose which defective toy to play with -- and be happy about it!"

Why would someone make such a post? One can only speculate that anyone who would do so has a need to feel superior both morally and intellectually and decides that the best way to achieve that end is to denigrate and dismiss others. Rather than truly rising above the situation, he/she takes the more expedient route of casting him or herself as what is, ironically enough, a truly insignificant -- and mythical -- minority of those who have such low expectations of themselves and others that there is nothing in this "unfair" "real world" which can disappoint them nor cause them to stand up for themselves and strive to make things better. Ironically, by holding him or herself above such plebeian concerns while steadfastly refusing even the attempt at righting any wrong they become the proverbial arrogant doormat.

More's the pity.

P.S. Yes, I'm quite aware of the irony of choosing to make this post and its content.
 
Your statement regarding Firaxis' post-sale legal obligations is, quite simply, wrong. The law gives purchasers certain rights over and above any contractual commitments and, importantly, even in the face of attempted disclaimers of those rights in a contract of sale or, in this case, a EULA...

Go ahead and sue Firaxis then &#8211; see how far you get.

Aside from game breaking issues (the OSS problems are the closest we have today, and that is only for a subset of the gaming community) all of the other bugs are subjective in nature. They don&#8217;t prevent you from playing the game. What may be &#8220;unplayable&#8221; for one person would be perfectly fine for another. Take the missing culture display on the build queue for example. Some just &#8220;can&#8217;t bring themselves to play&#8221; the game because of this, but many can. Is it a bug? Yes. Should it be fixed? Yes. But is it preventing you from getting entertainment from the game? Likely not, and therefore not something that has to be fixed.

A lot of the bugs are this way. I challenge you (or anyone) to name any other game breaking bugs (that are not system dependent &#8211; i.e. you have a crappy computer that can&#8217;t run it for some reason) that currently exist that are not subjective. I am asking because I do not remember seeing anything else in these discussions. I certainly have not experienced any of them in my playing.

Speaking of entertainment, the product that any game developer is selling is in fact entertainment. The vehicle is the game itself. If the end user receives entertainment in a greater or equal equivalent value than the cost of the game, then the developer was successful, and delivered it&#8217;s &#8220;product&#8221;. I started a poll yesterday to get at this very question. You can find it here.

At the time of this post it had 71 voters. 95.77% believe they have received equal or greater value of entertainment than it cost them to purchase the game. Pretty lopsided in favor of Firaxis delivering on it&#8217;s intended goal. (I know that 71 is not statistically significant sample size, and there are potential problems with an internet poll not being a random selection and whatnot, but it does give you a good idea of what the general feeling is).

Don&#8217;t get me wrong here &#8211; I truly feel that Firaxis should fix the game breaking issues (like OSS) in a quick and timely manner. But that is the end of their obligation. They do not need to fix any subjective bugs regardless of the user desire or if it even is the &#8220;right&#8221; thing to do.

One can only imagine him standing up at a meeting America's Founding Fathers or in South Africa at a meeting of those fighting Apartheid and reminding them: "Life is unfair, you clueless, insignificant minority. Every other human being who has not raised his or her voice in protest is obviously perfectly satisfied with their lot, why aren't you? We understand that life owes us nothing, why don't you? You need to live in the real world and accept whatever you're given by the almighty powers that be! You should all go home and choose which defective toy to play with -- and be happy about it!"

Umm... I would argue that the people against apartheid were actually in the majority, as whites were outnumbered by at least 10 to 1. That and not all whites were pro-apartheid. Just a thought.
 
My post was made solely to correct one incorrect statement:

The only reality that we all need to rememeber is that Firaxis has NO legal/contractual obligation to even patch the game once. Once you fork over your hard earned cash for the game - that ends the official relationship you have with them. Period.

Speaking of entertainment, the product that any game developer is selling is in fact entertainment. The vehicle is the game itself. If the end user receives entertainment in a greater or equal equivalent value than the cost of the game, then the developer was successful, and delivered it’s “product”. I started a poll yesterday to get at this very question. You can find it here.

At the time of this post it had 71 voters. 95.77% believe they have received equal or greater value of entertainment than it cost them to purchase the game. Pretty lopsided in favor of Firaxis delivering on it’s intended goal. (I know that 71 is not statistically significant sample size, and there are potential problems with an internet poll not being a random selection and whatnot, but it does give you a good idea of what the general feeling is).

I would vote with the majority, a sentiment which I've already expressed a number of times throughout this debate. Again my post was simply a response to your statement concerning Firaxis' obligations. Please don't read anything more into it.

Umm... I would argue that the people against apartheid were actually in the majority,

You've noted the very irony I intended to express.
 
I would vote with the majority, a sentiment which I've already expressed a number of times throughout this debate. Again my post was simply a response to your statement concerning Firaxis' obligations. Please don't read anything more into it..
I won't. And just to be clear on my side - I was speaking to the wider audience and not just responding to your specific quote that I cited, although that was what prompted me to respond.

You've noted the very irony I intended to express.

My apologies - I did not quite "get it" the first time I read it. This is not an attack (so please don't read it that way) - but you tend to throw in a lot of superfluous details and facts in your posts which in this case obscured the intended irony. I also don't favor posts that are mainly about attacking or degrading another individual, so I tend to have a negative initial reaction to them and am less open to seeing the finer details or underlying point that may be included, even with the disclaimer at the end.
 
Don&#8217;t get me wrong here &#8211; I truly feel that Firaxis should fix the game breaking issues (like OSS) in a quick and timely manner. But that is the end of their obligation. They do not need to fix any subjective bugs regardless of the user desire or if it even is the &#8220;right&#8221; thing to do.

Hmm, from my point of view, something that does not work as described in the Civilopedia or the manual is a malfunction or a bug. If you buy a car that turns left when you turn the steering wheel to the right and vice versa, or that honks the horn now and then without reason, or sometimes shuts down the engine when driving on the highway - you nevertheless basically are able to drive the car. As you put it: &#8220;the end user receives entertainment in a greater or equal equivalent value than the cost of the&#8221; car. Silly me would try to get it fixed. You&#8217;d keep it and think it&#8217;s great? ;)
The entertainment industry PR departments obviously have done a great job if some people are getting used to accept and enjoy faulty DVD-Players, game consoles, computers, MP3-players or software/games that need several updates and even then don&#8217;t work properly. Other industries usually don&#8217;t get away as cheap and easy. Just think about it! Others do &#8211; and maybe don&#8217;t let them get away that easy. I see no sense in insulting and bashing Firaxis, but a short reminder now and then, that if they want to continue selling, they should not completely forget about customer service might help.
Just my two cents.
 
Hmm, from my point of view, something that does not work as described in the Civilopedia or the manual is a malfunction or a bug. If you buy a car that turns left when you turn the steering wheel to the right and vice versa, or that honks the horn now and then without reason, or sometimes shuts down the engine when driving on the highway - you nevertheless basically are able to drive the car. As you put it: &#8220;the end user receives entertainment in a greater or equal equivalent value than the cost of the&#8221; car. Silly me would try to get it fixed. You&#8217;d keep it and think it&#8217;s great? ;)
The entertainment industry PR departments obviously have done a great job if some people are getting used to accept and enjoy faulty DVD-Players, game consoles, computers, MP3-players or software/games that need several updates and even then don&#8217;t work properly. Other industries usually don&#8217;t get away as cheap and easy. Just think about it! Others do &#8211; and maybe don&#8217;t let them get away that easy...


Ok - the car analogy just does not hold up. The primary purpose of a car is safe transportation. If any of the above issues happens, it is a safety issue, and yes - it needs to be fixed. The primary purpose of a game is entertainment. I don't have the possibility of injuring or killing myself or others if the Civilopedia or the manual is wrong.

The same can be said for the medicine analogy listed previously. This and the car example are matters of personal safety, and naturally have a higher degree of needed reliability than a game.

...I see no sense in insulting and bashing Firaxis, but a short reminder now and then, that if they want to continue selling, they should not completely forget about customer service might help.
Just my two cents.

I agree with you totally on this point. My main argument all along has not been that Firaxis is doing well, or doesn't need to improve - because they do. My issues have been with how some people are being irrational in their desires (and how they communicate them) and how that can be counterproductive to what we all want - which is an open and honest flow of communication with the developers that will aid in making a great game even better. We all want a game that is bug free and runs perfectly, we just need to be realistic in what we expect and how we go about communicating that.
 
I believe that there will be one more patch, but like others, have no actual idea as to when that will be.

You've now also spotted my unfortunate tendency to be verbose! :lol:

:beer:
 
Ok - the car analogy just does not hold up. The primary purpose of a car is safe transportation. If any of the above issues happens, it is a safety issue, and yes - it needs to be fixed. The primary purpose of a game is entertainment.

So just because my life does not depend on it, I have to accept any b*llsh*t I am getting sold???
A bug is annoying. That's the opposite of entertaining. So from a certain point of view a bugged game also misses his purpose (depending on the degree of perfection/imperfection you expect/tolerate). But I don't want to argue. I think in general we ar eon the same side. :)
 
So just because my life does not depend on it, I have to accept any b*llsh*t I am getting sold???
A bug is annoying. That's the opposite of entertaining. So from a certain point of view a bugged game also misses his purpose (depending on the degree of perfection/imperfection you expect/tolerate). But I don't want to argue. I think in general we ar eon the same side. :)

Yup I think we are. :hatsoff:
 
I believe that there will be one more patch, but like others, have no actual idea as to when that will be. :beer:
If this is to be the last patch, then all those who feel the game is "broken" should want them to take their time with this, not press for it to come out ASAP!

You can't simultaneously complain that they released the game too soon (which is what you are saying if maintain that it too buggy when it came out) and that they are taking too long to come out with things now, and/or they need to publicize a date and make it theri priority to meet it. that's called having your cake or eating it too.

In the software business there's a well known aphorism: Fast, cheap, and correct? Any combination of two is possible, but not all three.
 
If this is to be the last patch, then all those who feel the game is "broken" should want them to take their time with this, not press for it to come out ASAP!

I haven't seen *anyone* here press for a patch ASAP. The complaints are about the complete silence from Firaxis about a future patch. A simple, *official* statement to the effect that there will be such a patch at some time would suffice.
 
If this is to be the last patch, then all those who feel the game is "broken" should want them to take their time with this, not press for it to come out ASAP!


In the software business there's a well known aphorism: Fast, cheap, and correct? Any combination of two is possible, but not all three.

Unfortunately they didn't manage any of them it wasn't cheap civ IV cost me £100 it wasn't fast and as supplied it doesn't work on either system I have, despite hours of my time and even more time from solver etc it still has a game breaking bug the MP oss, I've given up on firaxis & take 2 as they can't even be bothered to communicate so in future i wont be paying for any product from either of them until i know it works (torrents are your friend) and before anyone says piracy is wrong normally I'd agree with you but they have had my money and supplied nothing in return so they cant morally complain when i get they product for nothing later

Simon

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