ALC Game #10: India/Asoka

[drkodos]

Sisiutil: Great playing. Nice recovery from what I openly and dismissively called a bleak position. At this point, without giving away any spoilers I believe, I tell you my shadow game did not go so well at these stages. When I first made contact with the other continent civ's, the leader of that landmass had me out-teched by 8 or 9 techs and nearly 2X score. Apparently I missed the point where I could have done something to change this from being an outcome, but I'm not sure what because I made first contact about 10 or so turns earlier than you did!

Regardless, its been a pleasure watching you herd this one this one into the welcoming pincers of yet another victory

 

[thefais]

On a totally minor issue: I went back through the thread and came across our old on-top-of-stone city site SW of Delhi that I never founded. That city would now have an ocean-based oil resource to work come Plastics, as well as that wheat tile and a handful of other tiles that aren't being used. Is it worth bothering to plunk that city down at this point?

Well, if it's close to Delhi, the only maintenance you'll have to pay is the # of cities one. If it can negate that, then I don't see any reason not to. Is there Oil elsewhere?

 

[Sisiutil]

Well, if it's close to Delhi, the only maintenance you'll have to pay is the # of cities one. If it can negate that, then I don't see any reason not to. Is there Oil elsewhere?

Yes, there's oil NE of Delhi in the desert just outside its fat cross. There's also some S of Cuman, but that tile is owned by Ragnar currently. I can't remember if there's some anywhere else. I should also mention that the ocean oil tile is already within my cultural borders, so I don't need a city to work it. I'm just thinking that it's another viable city in a relatively safe location that could produce science, commerce, and units.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Yes, there's oil NE of Delhi in the desert just outside its fat cross. There's also some S of Cuman, but that tile is owned by Ragnar currently. I can't remember if there's some anywhere else. I should also mention that the ocean oil tile is already within my cultural borders, so I don't need a city to work it. I'm just thinking that it's another viable city in a relatively safe location that could produce science, commerce, and units.

I agree, especially if you're not going to war with Ragnar and/or are going for a diplo victory. A city with a wheat tile will have decent pop, and the ocean-based oil is meh, but it's worth founding, if only for additional pop and commerce...

 

[LosBlack]

here's to being cheezy and staying true to the ALC theme "take advantage of leaders' traits": the only real advantage you have now is use of the spiritual trait for no anarchy. what's the biggest gain you currently get from this? switching b/n guns (+xp) and butter in 0 turns. i would vote for a warmonger win based on this idea if only to prove a point that the ALC is a thread with a purpose stated purpose (aside from being fun), and we (you) should hold the thread to task. you've done a great job of using Spirtual to it's full advantage so far, now close it out.

i am, however, willing to sellout on my principles if you think another victory condition will be a good bit (rather a lot really) faster..

 

[Sisiutil]

LosBlack makes a good point. Besides, I'm not a big believer in pursuing a particular victory condition just because it might be faster or easier. More than any other game I've played with the possible exception of Monopoly, Civilization is as much about the journey as it is about the end goal of victory. I tend to find that events within the game are pushing me towards a particular victory condition "organically", if you will, and to try to impose my own preferred condition can be frustrating. In this game, as I mentioned, circumstances are, I believe, leading me to a domination win, as much as I was resisting it recently.

On the traits: Spiritual and Organized, I'm finding in this game, have a definite synergy because not only can you change civics on a dime, you can run more expensive ones at a reduced price. More than any other trait combination, Asoka's allow me to civic-hop worry-free. I'm pretty much switching to whatever civic I think will be most beneficial whenever I want, without much concern about its cost. The downside to this, as TheArchDuke was warning me several posts back, is that I have to remember to not be so cavalier about civics and civics changes when I play as a leader without these traits.

And let's not overlook the cheap buildings. In the current round (which, yes, I will try to finish and post tonight), besides units, I've built more of spirituality's cheap temples to take advantage of the recently-captured Angkor Wat to run priest specialists (as well as help with war weariness and cultural borders). And I just finished researching Industrialism, so it's time to get those newly-cheap factories built (though dealing with the health issue is a bit of a problem).

(But please don't get on my back about not building temples earlier. Remember that thanks to the early religion and luck with resources, we didn't need them for happiness, and had other build priorities.)

Drkodos--and anyone else running a parallel game--should keep in mind that the AI may make very different decisions from the parallel game, the more so as time goes on. I played a shadow game of aelf's first EMC while it was going on and found this was the case, with Kublai and Napoleon pursuing different research goals, choosing war or peace at different times, founding cities in different locations and orders, and so on.

 

[Sisiutil]

Okay, I didn't have time to play the game last night, sorry. Real life again.

However, I had a brief look at the save after the few turns I'd played and a thought occurred to me: what if we leave Tokugawa for now and go after Ragnar?

The Viking is still teching and building units like crazy. His cities started stealing tiles from mine. I could see myself conquering the much-weakened Tokugawa only to find myself sharing the continent with an 800 lb. gorilla.

When I looked at the tech tree, I realized that I could skip Rifling (like I said, I expect to be able to trade with Churchill for it) and research Steam Power and then Assembly Line for Infantry, Organized's cheap factories, and the Pentagon. After that, I just need Electricity and then I can research Industrialism for Marines and Tanks. If Ragnar follows the AI's usual pattern, he'll be heading towards Artillery and Rocketry.

I could build Cannons, get to Assembly Line, hold the cannons in the queue, build Infantry (can you draft them with Nationalism?) switch to Vassalage/Theocracy and pump them out. I'm flush with cash for upgrades, and I could always lower the science slider for a few turns if I need more. The reason I mention this is that I would anticipate having a very long front, so the more Infantry I have along it, the better.

An added complication would be Tokugawa joining in. He's now quite far behind in techs, so I don't think he'd be too much of a problem, though he could pillage me a lot and even weaken my city defenders for Ragnar to finish off.

I don't know, it's just a thought. Ragnar and I are roughly equal in power, so it would be quite a battle royal. I could see some cities changing hands a few times. I'm just concerned that a war with him is inevitable, and the best time to do it is now when I can snag a military tech lead on him.

Thoughts?

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Thoughts?

The only problem I see with that is you're pretty much committing to a domination victory then. If you're OK with that, then I think it's not only an OK decision, it's absolutely the correct decision. If you want to win by domination, you better get working on Ragnar before it's too late. On the other hand, if you're still toying with the idea of a diplomatic win, then you really ought to leave Ragnar alone a little longer.

 

[LosBlack]

The only problem I see with that is you're pretty much committing to a domination victory then. If you're OK with that, then I think it's not only an OK decision, it's absolutely the correct decision.

correct decision! the further you get into the tech tree, the more you get military parity. if you have tanks and your neighbor doesn't, somebody's in trouble. finishing off two 400lb monkeys is easier than one 800lb pain..especially when you're the 1 ton bull..and they get the horns.

just don't leave Toku sitting around for too long.

 

[johnny_rico]

correct decision! the further you get into the tech tree, the more you get military parity. if you have tanks and your neighbor doesn't, somebody's in trouble. finishing off two 400lb monkeys is easier than one 800lb pain..especially when you're the 1 ton bull..and they get the horns.

just don't leave Toku sitting around for too long.

As long as sisiutil can achieve the military tech dominance, I agree with this decision. Tanks against no tanks yields a plummeting power meter for the deprived. Plus, I wouldn't let Toku get back on his feet. That protective trait sucks to war against. CG 2 or 3 rifles/Infantry are a big hassle.

I like the idea of finishing Toku while acquiring the ability to build tanks. If you war with Ragnar later, he'll make a big showing when you declare. Beat down his stacks in your territory to reduce WW, and then move in and eliminate him. Just be mindful of rivers and upgraded berserkers. Don't give his units that 25% advantage.

 

[pigswill]

I think its something I suggested a few posts back.

 

[patagonia]

When I looked at the tech tree, I realized that I could skip Rifling (like I said, I expect to be able to trade with Churchill for it) and research Steam Power and then Assembly Line for Infantry, Organized's cheap factories, and the Pentagon. After that, I just need Electricity and then I can research Industrialism for Marines and Tanks. If Ragnar follows the AI's usual pattern, he'll be heading towards Artillery and Rocketry.

I could build Cannons, get to Assembly Line, hold the cannons in the queue, build Infantry (can you draft them with Nationalism?) switch to Vassalage/Theocracy and pump them out.

That tech order's fine provided Churchill manages to come up with Rifling by himself, otherwise you'll need to backtrack for it before you can start building infantry. It'd be well worth including railroad and combustion in there if you're planning on a domination win, and railroad at least should come before electricity (with combustion before industrialism - you'll want a navy before pumping out tanks to accompany your veterans across the pond).

You can draft infantry with Nationalism, but they cost 2-pop rather than 1 and you really don't want to be sapping your cities at this point (maintaining your massive tech lead is the key to rollling up the other continent quickly and easily) so I wouldn't bother. Not unless WW starts to get UGLY, but you've already got Mausoleums and a quick detour to fascism would be preferable (don't forget the first to research it in Warlords gets a free GG - attach him to a tank from your HE city and you can have a CR3 barrage 3 monster to crack open enemy cities with).

Finally, don't forget - Toku may seem a way behind you in tech now, but if you turn on Ragnar and the two of them start getting stuck into you, I wouldn't be surprised if Japan suddenly has a bunch of shiny new techs courtesy of its Viking buddy.

I'd still hit Japan hard now to render it irrelevant and then lay into Ragnar once I'd upgraded all of the veterans to infantry with canon to back them up.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Attack Ragnar! If you can infantry that soon before Ragnar gets his next mil tech level, you should easily have tanks by the time you finish off Toku, and another domination is done. You will be at war with both eventually anyway, so Toku might actually be done before then.

 

[Sisiutil]

I think its something I suggested a few posts back.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Congratulations Mr. I'm-always-right, go buy yourself a cookie.

So... finish the golden age, beat down Toku a little more so he won't be a problem, tech to Tanks, go after Ragnar? I'm tempted to take Kyoto from Toku, but I think it will be swallowed up by Japanese culture. I might settle for quickly razing Shimanoeski and Matsoyana (sp?) to ease border pressure. I don't think I want to vassalize Japan until I take Kyoto, Nara, and Kagoshima.

Fascism for Police State and a free GG would be handy too. I like the idea of the CRIII/Barrage III tank.

 

[uncarved block]

Pros and cons of attacking Ragnar now, from this keyboard:

Pro side first. Yes, since the other continent is no longer a threat, taking down the two tech leaders on your continent sounds like a good idea. Ragnar also, I think I've mentioned before, really loves the Trebs (at least he has in my games), and getting to him before they all turn into Artillery is a swell notion, especially if you think that's where he's headed. Taking out Ragnar also eliminates your main competition for the space race, as the other continent has two psychos that can be bribed to slow down Churchill if he pulls ahead. Leaves another option for victory open, at least, though I'd ask the regular Monarch players whether this is illusory.

Cons. Divide and conquer is still a good strategy, and creating another enemy before you've fully put away the first should be weighed heavily. Other factors are more game centered. Every time I've left an enemy not entirely crippled after a war, that AI seems to spend the rest of the game building units; as patagonia mentioned, Toku could suddenly turn into a beast if all the Grenadiers he's no doubt building could turn into Infantry in a couple turns. If we're talking five units, that's one thing, but if it's closer to 25, then things could get ugly, fast. From the last map I could find, Toku's got enough cities that 25 might be the closer number, especially since Musketmen can also upgrade to Infantry.

What the heck-- Civ4 seems to reward taking grand chances, so go ahead and take on Ragnar. I wouldn't, and that may be the best recommendation right there.

 

[jerVL/kg]

Fascism gives you a free GG in Warlords now? Coool!!!

I'd still like to see a Diplomatic and/or Space Race victory (after you finish off Toku, of course) but it looks like I'm being outvoted...so, knock yourself out.

 

[patagonia]

Taking out Ragnar also eliminates your main competition for the space race, as the other continent has two psychos that can be bribed to slow down Churchill if he pulls ahead. Leaves another option for victory open, at least, though I'd ask the regular Monarch players whether this is illusory.

Since Churchill's almost got Redcoats and (the last time I checked the save a round or two ago) is the biggest and baddest civ over there, I'd definitely not advise trying to get him in a war with Alex/Isabella. You don't want to risk creating a situation where he rolls one or both of them up pretty quickly and you've suddenly got a bigger, badder enemy to deal with than you did before.

The easiest way to domination (once you've got the small matter of annexing the rest of Japan and Norway finished) would be to dump troops into England and use it as a base to steamroll through Greece and Spain. Then if that doesn't get you the land you need, turn the tanks round and start attacking Churchill with the swarms of highly promoted troops you'll have kicking their heels.

 

[pigswill]

What it comes down to is what victory you're after. If you're going for domination then you need to either take out Ragnar or the other continent while trying to ensure that Ragnar doesn't invade you. If going for diplomacy or space then its probably finish off and vassalise Tok and bulding up a decent defence force. In terms of playing time domination is the longest (lots of stack management) though may be quickest in game time.

 

[uncarved block]

Good point, patagonia, but I was thinking a little further down the road, after everyone has Infantry or even SAM Infantry, and all Sisiutil might need is 10-15 turns of production/research in order to win the space race. If he's far enough ahead, it might not even be necessary-- just another arrow in the quiver, that's all. Not a very good one either, post patch, or else I've just run into a long bad luck streak in bribing the AI into wars.

All beside the point, probably, as it sounds as if Domination is the way this game is headed.

 

[Sisiutil]

I finished the next round last night. I'll post it this evening.