ALC Game #10: India/Asoka

[jerVL/kg]

about cultural victory, it's not too late, but there is nothing done yet in this direction, so it would be really hard.

He's only got two religions, and no way to acquire more except by conquering other (non-Toku) cities. Plus he hasn't exactly gone Wonder-crazy this game (very out of character for Sisutil!!!) so you'd need at least five or six religions at this late stage, plus you'd need to eliminate Ragnar & weaken the other continent before shutting off research & pumping up the culture slider...at which point, you might as well go for Domination instead.

Besides, I never bother with CV unless the game plays itself out that way, and this map isn't very culture-friendly...it's certainly possible, but would be very very hard and probably isn't worth the effort.

 

[Tyrant Roger]

Well executed war v. Toku. As has been suggested, you should attack Toku's northern cities and also capture Versaille once the Golden Age ends.

If Toku is your vassal, then assess your best choice - diplomacy or domination. IMHO given the AI's weakness at warfare domination may be easier. And that means taking down Ragnar since a campaign on the other continent with mighty Ragnar getting stronger behind your back is a dangerous state of affairs.

 

[patagonia]

I'm not at all convinced that diplomacy will be easy. I'll agree with you that domination will be much harder, but the way things stand now, Alexander and Isabella are nowhere near voting for Sisiutil. The handling of Tokugawa is going to be touch and go whether it causes problems with the other civilizations.

One good thing we have going is that if Ragnar does manage to surge ahead of Churchill in population, Churchill probably likes us enough to vote for us. So we might be OK either way on that one. We're up against either Ragnar or Churchill, and whoever it turns out to be, the other guy probably votes for us.

Personally I think a diplomacy win is a non-starter.

If you stay Buddhist, you'll never, ever get Isabella's vote.
If you stop being Buddhist, you'll lose Ragnar's vote (you've just lost the favourite civic bonus by switching out of HR and you'll probably get another -1 when you redeclare on Toku).
I seem to recall reading several times on these forums that Alex will never vote for you for a diplomatic win, no matter how happy he is.
If Churchill wasn't number 2 in pop, he'd be the most reliable on the other continent, but since he is, you need to engineer a situation where all the votes on your own continent get you enough to win the game which is going to be tricky as the AI tends to grow cities large pre-biology anyway.

Domination would be challenging and possibly a slog depending on the rate of military buildup Churchill manages, and conquest a bit pointless (I admit the end movie's probably the best out of all of them, but razing a whole continent just to avoid the domination limit always struck me as a bit odd).

That leaves space as the "easiest" way to win this and the AI, despite being programed to go for that condition, is pretty hopeless at it compared to a human. If you clean up Japan you'll easily have the land and resources to do so, even if aluminium's lacking as Kyoto with the ironworks and state property will make an awesome production city, and tech's normally the limiting factor rather than production power. As far as religion goes in that situation, the 10% research bonus from Free Religion only becomes an issue if your closest rival (in this case Ragnar) is getting it and you're not.

 

[Sisiutil]

Personally I think a diplomacy win is a non-starter.

If you stay Buddhist, you'll never, ever get Isabella's vote.
If you stop being Buddhist, you'll lose Ragnar's vote (you've just lost the favourite civic bonus by switching out of HR and you'll probably get another -1 when you redeclare on Toku).

Yes, it occurred to me that Ragnar may be on the borderline of dropping from Friendly to Pleased, and declaring war on Toku again might push him over that line.

I was looking at the tech tree again and at the happiness rates in my cities just before I made peace with Tokugawa. To finish him off, I will likely be gearing up to handle war weariness: building markets, mausoleums, theatres, and temples, and researching Industrialism (cheap factories with Organized!) and Fascism. Then building the Pentagon and Mt. Rushmore.

Frankly, that sounds a lot like a build-up towards a domination win. If I went for diplomacy or space race, I'd be switching my focus on a dime once Tokugawa was either dead or my vassal. Ragnar might have a head start towards space race at that time, and I'd be playing catch-up. He'd also probably get stingy with his techs as he closes in on a space race win.

So maybe I should suck it up and go after Ragnar after all. If I can get a tech lead on him thanks to the GA infrastructure builds and switching to Free Religion, I might beat him to tanks. Oooo, tanks. Fun. I'll also have a big army of veterans once my war with Toku is over. I can empty my own and former Japanese territory of most of my forces and distribute them along the border cities. If I can get railroads set up by then as well, I should have the strength and the mobility to deal with anything Ragnar throws at me.

The nice thing about the other continent being behind in tech is I doubt they'll interfere on my continent. Churchill will also be quite content to pursue a space race win.

On the civics changes--no, I wouldn't make this many with a non-spiritual leader, of course not! But it makes sense, as others have said, to take full advantage of the trait. And it's fun!

 

[flamingzaroc121]

dont forget to use your UB, the Mausoleum (spelling?), which has an added +2 happiness in addition to helping with WW

 

[patagonia]

Personally I think a diplomacy win is a non-starter.

Actually, I just thought of a way to make a diplomacy win very easy, but it's somewhat devious (probably more an interesting way to manipulate the game mechanics than something to pursue, but I thought I'd share it anyway).

Research up to Mass Media and while you're doing so, generate a GE (or two) in your ironworks city (you haven't had many great people yet this game so that shouldn't be too hard with the ability to hire 6 engineers there). Then give mass media to one of the small, backward yokels across the water (whoever out of Alex and Isabella you can give a few techs to without annoying Churchill/Ragnar). The RB24 - Big Brother SG featured the revelation that you can use your GE to hurry production in another faction's city, so use spies to find out where that AI's building the UN and then rush it with your engineer. Bingo - a small pop rival in all the elections allowing you to cultivate Ragnar and Churchill as your allies in the big vote.

The only drawback to this approach is that you'll be relying on your chosen AI to actually start the UN, but I reckon they're unlikely to avoid a wonder for too long. If you quickly build Hollywood yourself, that'll avoid any unneccessary distractions for the AI too.

 

[jerVL/kg]

Research up to Mass Media and while you're doing so, generate a GE (or two) in your ironworks city (you haven't had many great people yet this game so that shouldn't be too hard with the ability to hire 6 engineers there). Then give mass media to one of the small, backward yokels across the water (whoever out of Alex and Isabella you can give a few techs to without annoying Churchill/Ragnar). The RB24 - Big Brother SG featured the revelation that you can use your GE to hurry production in another faction's city, so use spies to find out where that AI's building the UN and then rush it with your engineer. Bingo - a small pop rival in all the elections allowing you to cultivate Ragnar and Churchill as your allies in the big vote.

Wow, that's a hell of a trick...in fact, I'd almost call it an exploit. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Here's a question. If Tokugawa (after you vassalize him) builds the UN, will he vote for himself? Or will he be forced to vote for the masterl?

 

[Syndrome Zed]

Nara has crabs,

There's an ointment for that, I believe.

Here's an idea for a possible way to diplo vic, not sure if it'll work or not. But use your advantages to give The Bulldog a boost on his continent. Isabella looks to be smallest over there. Could you give Churchill a boost by trading a military tech or two if he needs it, then bribing him into attacking She of the Heaving Bosom? Maybe even gift him a few strong cav or something to go with his Redcoats? If you can make Churchill bigger at Isabella's expense, assuming he stays friendly with you, you'll essentially get some of Isabella's votes for yourself. As a voting bloc, you, Ragnar, and Churchill might command enough alone for your diplo vic, if The Bulldog can be made bigger at the expense of someone who wouldn't vote for you.

And if you do plan to go for a diplo vic, it's probably better to exterminate Toku than to vassal him. You'd get a small boost in votes by vassaling him , but the negative diplo modifier could cause abstention by one of the big guns in your corner right now.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

The RB24 - Big Brother SG featured the revelation that you can use your GE to hurry production in another faction's city, so use spies to find out where that AI's building the UN and then rush it with your engineer.

In that case they not only had an OB but were friendly with that faction. I wonder if the same applies if you are not friendly with that civ? Or is it just a matter of having an OB?

 

[patagonia]

In that case they not only had an OB but were friendly with that faction. I wonder if the same applies if you are not friendly with that civ? Or is it just a matter of having an OB?

You don't even need OB for great people and spies to enter rival territory (AFAIK).

I think the fact that one of your great people can hurry production in any city (I wonder if you need a spy there to reveal the build first?) is possibly an oversight by the game designers because they didn't envisage a situation in which a player would want to do that and so didn't restrict great person activity to your own cities. Then again, with permanent alliances an option in custom games and the ability to gift great people to other factions, maybe it isn't an oversight and simply a highly situational feature.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

You don't even need OB for great people and spies to enter rival territory (AFAIK).

I just checked the XML unit definitions. That's only true for great merchants. The other great people work normally like other units. The only units that can travel in rival territory are great merchants, caravels, spies, and submarines.

 

[patagonia]

I just checked the XML unit definitions. That's only true for great merchants. The other great people work normally like other units. The only units that can travel in rival territory are great merchants, caravels, spies, and submarines.

It makes a lot of sense that merchants have that ability rather than great people in general. Thanks for checking.

 

[johnny_rico]

I'd give a vote for an attempt at a diplomatic victory. The ALC's are a challenge and I've found diplomatic victories tough to engineer in warlords 2.08 on monarch. It's my guess by the time you'd finish the UN, Ragnar would be too close to rocketry and may abstain from voting. I've found this to be the case in multiple games recently if the AI in question is only 'pleased' with you. The 'friendly' status may yield a vote in your favor, I'm not sure. It's only a matter of time before Raggy converts to Islam, and when he does, relations will take a hit.

If Ragnar does abstain, it would be a while before you'd accrue enough population via biology and found some votes elsewhere. And, of course, if the diplo victory fails, you research fission. BOOM! Conquer/dominate the world, what's left of it.

Given where are you on the tech tree vs. others, a space race is the simplest path to victory. For a domination victory, by 1600, you want control over most of your own continent, and that looks to be a long way off.

By the way, that trick of running pacifism/caste while starving the city for several turns as a spiritual leader is brilliant. Kudos to JJ or Jiggle (it's one of those two who recommended it), I'm looking forward to trying it out.

 

[jerVL/kg]

The ALC's are a challenge and I've found diplomatic victories tough to engineer in warlords 2.08 on monarch. It's my guess by the time you'd finish the UN, Ragnar would be too close to rocketry and may abstain from voting. I've found this to be the case in multiple games recently if the AI in question is only 'pleased' with you. The 'friendly' status may yield a vote in your favor, I'm not sure. It's only a matter of time before Raggy converts to Islam, and when he does, relations will take a hit.

Raggy's unlikely to convert until more of his cities have Islam than Buddhism -- which is why I keep insisting we Buddhafy all of Raggy's cities, ASAP!! I'd also consider spreading Taoism, but that would make him more likely to go Free Religion, which obviously we don't want...as for UN vs. Space Race, I've never had a problem with AI votes, no matter where they are on the spaceship. I've even had Pleased & Friendly AI's vote me a Diplo Victory when they have 1 or 2 parts left!! (Of course, this is on Vanilla -- Warlords may be different.)

Definitely pick up Biology, Industrialism, and possibly Rocketry on the way to Mass Media...depending on which tech path Ragnar takes, you've definitely have enough time to get to the UN first. (I would allow Raggy to build Broadway and/or Rock & Roll, as that makes him less likely to beeline MM for Hollywood.) Electricity/Radio are on the spaceship path, and if Diplomacy becomes a wash, you're that much closer to Robotics & the Space Elevator.

Of course, if you really want to crush & pillage everyone for Domination, go right ahead...I'm just a peacemonger so I have little advice to give about that.

 

[johnny_rico]

Raggy's unlikely to convert until more of his cities have Islam than Buddhism -- which is why I keep insisting we Buddhafy all of Raggy's cities, ASAP!! I'd also consider spreading Taoism, but that would make him more likely to go Free Religion, which obviously we don't want...as for UN vs. Space Race, I've never had a problem with AI votes, no matter where they are on the spaceship. I've even had Pleased & Friendly AI's vote me a Diplo Victory when they have 1 or 2 parts left!! (Of course, this is on Vanilla -- Warlords may be different.)

Don't you think Buddifying his cities is only a short delay on the inevitable. Only from experience I find the AI will usually spread their own religion to their own cities once they found one.

Regarding the AI votes, this is new for me to not receive votes from pleased civs who are close to rocketry or have it (as in warlords 2.08 new). It could be a case of an AI not knowing who to vote for if they have the same positive modifier towards two different cities. Anyway, to not digress too far, in 2.08, I've had civs that are +9 pleased researching rocketry abstain from voting from me. Perhaps it's my combative disposition.

 

[Phrederick]

(I would allow Raggy to build Broadway and/or Rock & Roll, as that makes him less likely to beeline MM for Hollywood.)

Why wouldn't you want Ragnar to research Mass Media?

Also, I vote for whatever possibility allows for the fastest win. I always find the first part of the game the most interesting.

 

[aelf]

For a domination victory, by 1600, you want control over most of your own continent

That wasn't the case in EMC 3. I think domination is highly possible. Heck, even diplomacy might be winnable if you play the shared civic card wisely. It's just a matter of which victory Sisiutil chooses.

 

[cabert]

I don't understand why diplomacy would be any difficult.
You don't need to switch out of buddhism, you just need non buddhists to switch to free religion.
That + HR + common struggle is more than enough.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Go for conquest.

He doesn't have the towns necessary to tech all the way for a space race easily, nor keep a lot of town on the other continent. There aren't enough rivers to benefit from state property later. Given the amount of warring he's doing, by the time he keeps his continent, it'll be one with large numbers of elite CR units, lots of roads (due to giving the AI so much time to build them), and not much towns at all. This means he can bring a lot of units to the front quickly, essential for attacking the other continent and then razing cities rather than trying to keep them.

 

[Sisiutil]

I played part of the round last night--lots of infrastructure now in place, and I'm about to re-open hostilities with Japan. I hope to finish the round and update here tonight.

On a totally minor issue: I went back through the thread and came across our old on-top-of-stone city site SW of Delhi that I never founded. That city would now have an ocean-based oil resource to work come Plastics, as well as that wheat tile and a handful of other tiles that aren't being used. Is it worth bothering to plunk that city down at this point?