ALC Game 12: Japan/Tokugawa

[pax]

Also worth considering is whether Vassalizing Fred will provide enough land/pop to win when you take out Izzy.

The bigger worry, as far as I'm concerned, is if Fred vassalizes himself to Brennus. Probably not a huge concern, as the AI sucks at overseas invasions. But! You still don't want a war with one of your best trading partners. Also, Brennus may be one of those leaders who won't offer peace unless you cause him some damage. Ugh. Something to consider.

On another topic: I wouldn't jump up one level yet. You've got Korea coming up next, which might lend itself to a different sort of gameplay. Between their upgraded University and the Financial trait, you might be able to go for a (mostly) peaceful space race victory. One thing you haven't really done in the ALCs is say "This is my victory condition and I will pursue it no matter what!" Korea might be an opportunity to do so.

 

[Syndrome Zed]

The bigger worry, as far as I'm concerned, is if Fred vassalizes himself to Brennus. Probably not a huge concern, as the AI sucks at overseas invasions. But! You still don't want a war with one of your best trading partners. Also, Brennus may be one of those leaders who won't offer peace unless you cause him some damage. Ugh. Something to consider.

I wouldn't worry about it in his place - by the time Freddie vassalizes, Sisiutil will be technologically advanced enough to win outright, so trading won't be as important. He'll lose some economy to it too, but the current lull in fighting is designed to ensure the internal economy will cover the shortfall.

 

[Sisiutil]

The bigger worry, as far as I'm concerned, is if Fred vassalizes himself to Brennus. Probably not a huge concern, as the AI sucks at overseas invasions. But! You still don't want a war with one of your best trading partners. Also, Brennus may be one of those leaders who won't offer peace unless you cause him some damage. Ugh. Something to consider.

On another topic: I wouldn't jump up one level yet. You've got Korea coming up next, which might lend itself to a different sort of gameplay. Between their upgraded University and the Financial trait, you might be able to go for a (mostly) peaceful space race victory. One thing you haven't really done in the ALCs is say "This is my victory condition and I will pursue it no matter what!" Korea might be an opportunity to do so.

Freddy becoming Brennus' vassal would actually be ideal, from my point of view. It would give me the perfect excuse to take whatever cities Brennus has on my continent.

The only complication would be Freddy capitulating to Brennus while we're both still at war, since that would mean an automatic peace treaty. So what I'll probably do is get Brennus to make peace with Frederick once the German has been knocked down a few pegs. Even if Frederick does capitulate to him after that, I can still keep the war going to its logical conclusion.

Syndrome Zed, interesting idea on the two-front war versus Germany and Spain. I'll definitely consider it.

I'm not planning on jumping a level yet. Frankly, devoting yourself to all-out war is, I've found, one of the best ways to guarantee an eventual victory. A more peaceful game (such as the one as Hannibal) usually leads to a more challenging end-game. (I'd argue that this may be the first ALC where I have pretty much decided on my victory condition from the get-go.)

I'm considering postponing the Korea game for now, since aelf recently played an EMC with them and I doubt that my approach with them would be very different, barring a very different map. That would put Mali next, which could also make for a more peaceful game.

 

[Syndrome Zed]

Syndrome Zed, interesting idea on the two-front war versus Germany and Spain. I'll definitely consider it.

Muchas gracias, but I have to give credit where it's due - it was Patagonia's idea IIRC.

I'm considering postponing the Korea game for now, since aelf recently played an EMC with them and I doubt that my approach with them would be very different, barring a very different map. That would put Mali next, which could also make for a more peaceful game.

Your challenge - tech as fast as the AI when it gets Mansa on a peaceful continent.

 

[flamingzaroc121]

my war plan would require two main stacks and a reinforcer stack.

From Konya a main stack that goes north and hits Munich, Frankfurt and Hamburg. there it meets the reinforcer that is built in the north and heads down to help destroy Berlin

From Tokyo and the south another stack attacks Essen and Cologne and then meets up with the other stack and takes Berlin. For the annoying city to the west, send some units to get experience

Now, im not a monarch player, but that is my best take of the situation

 

[jerVL/kg]

In my defense, I simply changed my mind. I was planning on building Wall Street in Istanbul, remember? That was still my plan when I made the trade. But as the war with Rome drew to a close and Frederick kept spreading Confucianism into my cities, I decided that Cologne would be a better location (which is also why it will probably be the 2nd city I'll take, to get it to work on WS ASAP).

You have an excuse for everything, don't you?

To be honest, I hadn't even considered Cologne for Wall Street -- but it does appear to be the better choice, since it already has a shrine and high production capacity. With any luck, the city will have a BANK when you take it, so you can start building it immediately (and hopefully finish by the time the game ends!)

And if you do revolt Nat/Theo, be sure to stick with HR unless you can add Representation w/o an extra turn of anarchy. HR will aid the incipient "draft anger", so maybe it's the better choice anyway?

and i like hearing about the trades others consider , gives me food for thought sometimes. not suggesting you do them JUST to hear comments of course *giggle*.

Like the old saying goes, we learn more from Sisiutil's mistakes than we do from his victories. Actually, the Corp/Chem trade wasn't that bad, I'm just so used to squeezing every drop of life out of the Great Lighthouse, that I normally don't bother with Corp until I'm ready to research Assembly Line...

I'm considering postponing the Korea game for now, since aelf recently played an EMC with them and I doubt that my approach with them would be very different, barring a very different map. That would put Mali next, which could also make for a more peaceful game.

Whoohoo, a Skirmisher rush!! Sounds like fun!

 

[cabert]

One small suggestion (be ready to mourn your population!),
when you're ready to draft you riflemen, consider doing a 1-2 combo:
- draft the rifle
- whip a cannon (for 2 pop at least).
It seems hard on the happiness front but in fact it's not so bad:
+3 unhappiness from drafting
+1 unhappiness from whipping
-1 unhappiness from 1 lost pop from drafting
-2 unhappiness from 2 lost pop from whipping
-? unhappiness from lower pop = lower WW.

It's much easier to deal with that than with the 3 unhappies from drafting alone, and it's the same 10 turns fade away for both unhappiness cause, which isn't the case when relying on only one (slavery or drafting), where unhappiness stacks with cumulative duration.

 

[kniteowl]

as long as you have a barracks in the city you're drafting. The 1st Unit you Draft Doesn't effect the Happiness of your city.

+2 Happy from Barracks (Nationhood)
-3 Unhappiness
and - 1 Pop from drafting therefore you break even on the Happy and Unhappy department

 

[cabert]

as long as you have a barracks in the city you're drafting. The 1st Unit you Draft Doesn't effect the Happiness of your city.

I'm sure you mean by that what you write right under this, but it is actually untrue.
You have the happy faces from baracks before the draft.

+2 Happy from Barracks (Nationhood)
-3 Unhappiness
and - 1 Pop from drafting therefore you break even on the Happy and Unhappy department

this is right.
But you only have 1 unit
If you want another, it's better to use slavery than another round of drafting.
This was my point, but it seems I was unclear.

 

[curtadams]

Good grief, you've won already. You don't need another shrine or Berlin (which is one heck of a city - #4 with no wonders!) The only aspect of the sequencing should be what snarfs up the cities fastest. One attack stack should go Munich-Frankurt-clockwise. If you have a second it should clear out the backyard before coming back to finish Freddie off. (If you clear the backyard second then 2 stacks will have to cross your original land rather than one, hence slower.)

Trading for Corp was definitely a blunder. You probably came out behind until you built Wall Street and even then it's a small gain. The Christians getting grenadiers, though, means they may have the tech to go Dutch East India company on Isabella and you might actually have to work a smidgen to pick up the 3 or so overseas cities for the win.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 7, Part 1: 1583 AD to 1658 AD

Well, Frederick didn't take nearly as long as Julius.

I started the round by changing techs, as recommended:



This did end up costing me Physics' Great Scientist, which Freddy got instead. Fat lot of good it did him, as you'll see.



My stack out of the former Ottoman city of Konya (now my Heroic Epic and main military city) pounced on Munich post-haste. I had upgraded a couple of my CRIII Samurai to Grenadiers, but left the rest as they were. I anticipated accruing another promotion for them, then upgrading them to Riflemen. So while the Grenadiers took out the toughest defenders and acted as city defenders, my veteran Samurai performed mop-up duties:



I even got my Medic III Warlord/Horse Archer in on the action. I thought that he had earned a Mobility promotion, but I was mistaken, so I let him take out a Trebuchet and capture the city.



Once I finished researching Rifling, I changed civics:



This was, of course, to implement the drafting strategy some of you recommended. I set about drafting a Rifleman in three of cities every turn, starting with the capital:



This provided me with a huge number of Rifles, of course. Some simply replaced the ages-old City Garrison Archer in their home cities, but most headed to Germany to join the fray. I gave most of them a combination of Combat II and Pinch promotions. Frederick didn't have many Grenadiers for me to contend with, and never did finish researching Military Tradition or Rifling. So I kept taking cities:





Cologne cost him big time, depriving him of his holy city and its shrine income. Unfortunately, it didn't have a bank, or the building didn't survive, so it's going to take a while to get Wall Street built there.

Once I'd drafted a Rifleman out of every city, I changed civics again:



That's one down-side of Epic speed: lengthy anarchy turns from civics changes. Free Speech helped my economy and cultural borders, but I lost the +2 happy from barracks. Some of my cities became unhappy as a result, especially as the war went on, making me lower the science slider and raise the cultural one to deal with it. I probably should have waited until the drafting unhappiness had dissipated before changing civics from Nationhood. Lesson learned.

In 1628, Brennus and Freddy made peace. Just as well; it meant the scenario of Freddy capitulating to Brennus, forcing me into a peace treaty, wouldn't happen. Like Julius, Freddy stubbornly refused to capitulate. Or maybe he tried and was rebuffed. I was quite far ahead on power by this point.

Disappointingly, the change to Free Religion did not elevate either Kublai or Brennus from "Pleased" to "Friendly" with me. However, both had improved views of Isabella, having apparently come to regard Freddy as their worst enemy, so this allowed me to start trading with Spain for a few GPT.

I wanted the end the war quickly so I could get on with an overseas invasion to end the game. My main stack made a diversion to Essen; Freddy had been causing trouble from there, sending units to pillage and threaten both Osaka and Tokyo. That would remove the irritation, but delay the attack into the German heartland. To move things along, I gathered together two additional stacks, made up mostly of units I'd initially used for city defense along my long, extended border. One gathered in Istanbul and attacked Frankfurt:



The other gathered in Magyar and set out for Dortmund:



I kept Dortmund. You can see that Kublai re-settled on the horse tile in the continent's southwest corner, so I couldn't found a city on the plains hill 3S of Dortmund as we'd specified earlier. Besides, Dortmund is a good-sized city, and you just know the AI would settle the location if I'd razed it. I left that stack to heal in Dortmund before they marched on Cimmerian.

My main stack captured the German capital, with my Frigates assisting by stripping the cultural defenses:



I meant for the stack in Frankfurt to have captured Hamburg shortly thereafter, but Frederick sent a hail-Mary stack towards Frankfurt, making me hunker down to defend it. The stack wound up not attacking; it just hung out, threateningly, on a hill east of that city and within reach of Kyoto, Munich, and Cologne. I sent a few defensive Cannons (with Barrage I promotions) on suicide attacks to weaken the stack, then picked off units with Cavalry and my drafted Riflemen. I didn't kill the stack completely, but I weakened it and Freddy left it on that hill to heal.

Now, I had planned on researching Physics after Rifling, just to finish it off, but realized I had bigger fish to fry. I switched to Biology. In the meantime, Frederick managed to get both Physics and Democracy on me. I considered swapping 10 turns of Peace for them, but Freddy wouldn't let either one go. Fortunately, Kublai researched Democracy (I had to finish Physics on my own), and was willing to trade it:



I've noticed that you have to act fast to get Democracy from the AI. Within a turn or two, they start building the Statue of Liberty and won't trade it for anything. I started building the SoL in Ankara. What the heck. I didn't change civics, even though Kublai changed to Emancipation and produced more unhappiness in my war-weary cities.

On a minor note, that resource-free island in the ocean east of Rome was settled by the AI, as I anticipated. Brennus founded a city there:



Yeah, okay... the less said about that name, the better.

Meanwhile, my secondary stack sortied out of Dortmund to Cimmerian:



Freddy's dead.

So I'm now churning Galleons out of Konya and Apache (where I settled my most recent Great General as a Military Instructor, for the additional XPs; a previous ones went to Antium to bolster the Military Academy that Caesar built there. I also moved my units to Konya in anticipation of an invasion of Spain. I'm very close to the numbers needed for a domination win. You'll see how close in the next, "state of the world" post.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 7, Part 2: The State of the World, 1658 AD

So let's start with a look at the map:



Aside from a Celtic and a Mongol city, the continent is mine. I suppose I should build some cultural buildings in Apache and Dortmund; I'm building some missionaries to spread faiths, at least. Apache, though, has a military instructor (and if I get the free GG from Fascism, he'll go there too), so building anything non-military is a bit of a waste in that city.

At the end of the round, I traded maps with Brennus and Kublai to get up-to-date information on the other continents:



Since I'm planning on invading Spain, let's have a closer look at that territory:





The best plan to me seems to be to take out Madrid, Barcelona, and Toledo, in that order. Madrid has a nice hill east of the city for landing a stack--did everyone notice that? I'm hoping that those cities will give me the land I need for the wind after they come out of revolt. Seville looks like it would be swamped by Mongolian culture. Cordoba and Santiago, however, could add needed territory if I'm a few tiles short. I'll need to make sure, however, that Kublai stays out of things.

Let's have a look at a few other items. The Domestic Advisor is next:



A mix of infrastructure and military, as you can see.

Civics:



I may change civics one more time if I get Communism, going to State Property and Emancipation. Right now, though, I'm researching Steam Power. It's needed for Assembly Line and Railroad, after all, and will reveal coal. These are probably the main discussion points this round: what's a higher priority--Assembly Line for Infantry and the Pentagon, or Railroad for Machine Guns?

Foreign relations:



And how my buddies view my target, Isabella:



So hopefully Kublai will stay out of it, since he's "Pleased" with her, but that's no guarantee. Fortunately, I do have at least one tech with which I could possibly bribe him to make peace:



I have a couple more on Brennus:



And several on poor, backwards Izzy:



If that remains the same, she won't have a single unit in the same era as my Riflemen, Grenadiers, Cavalry, and Cannon. I might also have Machine Guns and Infantry before the war with her is done.

Active trades:



Yeah, I need to pare down the gold-for-resource trades with Kublai. They came about in one of those weird turns where the interface says the AI has 1 GPT available, so I cancel the existing trade only to find the AI is actually offering less GPT for a single trade than it did before. I'm not sure if that's a bug; it's a behaviour I've only seen since the Warlords 2.08 patch.

The power chart:



Poor Isabella. Poor, poor girl. Heh heh heh...

Demographics:



And the victory screen:



Ooooo, I'm sooooooo close! Remember I have three German cities that have yet to come out of revolt: Berlin, Hamburg, and Cimmerian.

By the way, it seems strange that this screen seems to indicate that I have the world's largest population, while the demographics screen says I'm #2. Can anyone explain that to me?

So I expect the next round will be the last. I'll sail my Galleons and Frigates to Spain, declare war, and invade. It seems pretty straightforward from here on in, but as always, I appreciate your comments and advice.

 

[KMadCandy]

"By the way, it seems strange that this screen seems to indicate that I have the world's largest population, while the demographics screen says I'm #2. Can anyone explain that to me?"

as i understand it, F8 adds up the sizes of your cities and gives this as a percentage. that's what counts for the domination win. the demographics screen counts the "number of people" differently. somehow the number of people doesn't scale linearly with city size. something about big cities counting way more than small ones or vice versa, the mechanics are beyond my memory at this point. yeah it's funky but F8 is what we're gunning for.

 

[kniteowl]

There isn't much to say... The game is all but in the bag... except maybe beeline for Marines... all of Isabella' Cities are on the Coast and maybe build a lot for Naval units that can knock down cultural defence. I forgotten who started the Attack all cities from Ships idea... was it the Sirian Doctrine???... *Shrugs* I Don't know lol maybe someone else here can correct me.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

as i understand it, F8 adds up the sizes of your cities and gives this as a percentage. that's what counts for the domination win. the demographics screen counts the "number of people" differently. somehow the number of people doesn't scale linearly with city size. something about big cities counting way more than small ones or vice versa, the mechanics are beyond my memory at this point.

Yup - this was part of the key to the Epic #3 challenge.

CvCity::getRealPopulation

1000 * Pop ^ 2.8

The population in the demographics screen is the sum of the RealPopulations of all of your cities.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

There isn't much to say... The game is all but in the bag... except maybe beeline for Marines...

Is the game going to last that long? Amphibious promotions would probably do just as well, if they are even necessary.

The only comments I have:

It's what, 20 turns from when you claim a tile to the point that you have ownership of it, for victory purposes.

A Great Artist or two would speed that up a bit, by giving Madrid some extra rings and bringing it out of rebellion that much more quickly. Any chance the next GP can be shaped to this end?

Machine guns? I don't see that being very relevent. Is there any chance that your transports will be vulnerable?

 

[NaZdReG]

sisuitil,

the pace of the game is excellent, thank you! I appreciate that you followed my early game strat, and its been fun to watch you warmonger across the continent I think you missed a small window where xbows could have helped your samurai, but you steamrolled the continent regardless. emperor difficulty for ya yet?

looking forward to the end, and the start of the next game

NaZ

 

[Sisiutil]

Is the game going to last that long? Amphibious promotions would probably do just as well, if they are even necessary.

The only comments I have:

It's what, 20 turns from when you claim a tile to the point that you have ownership of it, for victory purposes.

A Great Artist or two would speed that up a bit, by giving Madrid some extra rings and bringing it out of rebellion that much more quickly. Any chance the next GP can be shaped to this end?

Machine guns? I don't see that being very relevent. Is there any chance that your transports will be vulnerable?

I agree; knightowl, I'd be amazed if I get to Industrialization before the game is through, let alone Assembly Line and Infantry. The invasion will be carried out by the existing Rennaissance units.

As for the GA, the next GP is due out of Rome in a handful of turns. The greatest likelihood is that it will be a Great Merchant, however, we all know how perverse the RNG can be, and there is a small chance that it will be a GA. I could change the specialists, but I'm not sure how effective that will be in the short number of turns left. Whenever I've done that in the past, I NEVER get the GP I'm after. But I'll give it a try. Failing that, I could start running artists in the capital right away, where the National Epic might give that GP type a boost, especially with the GL obsolete.

sisuitil,

the pace of the game is excellent, thank you! I appreciate that you followed my early game strat, and its been fun to watch you warmonger across the continent I think you missed a small window where xbows could have helped your samurai, but you steamrolled the continent regardless. emperor difficulty for ya yet?

looking forward to the end, and the start of the next game

NaZ

Crossbows were there; I mainly used them to sally out of my cities and take down melee units like Macemen and Pikemen. I had a couple accompanying my stacks as well. I have a Drill III Grenadier somewhere, IIRC, who started his life carrying a bolt-thrower.

I'd like to play at least one or two more ALCs on Monarch with fractal maps before considering a level jump.

This game, I think, proves something that aelf's been asserting: that there is a greater emphasis on war in this version of Civ than in any other. Granted, I had the leader who I think lends himself most to warmongering. When the main advantage you get is free promotions from both traits, what else are you going to do?

Remember how I said that Tokugawa has no economic advantages? Well, I was wrong. I was able to research at a deficit for at least half the game. Why? Because I had gold rolling in from captured cities and from AIs who were eager-to-please because of my power rating. So this game is going to finish incredibly early (to me, anyway), and it's evidence of the incredible power of warmongering in Civ IV.

That being said, warmongering with other leaders won't necessarily be as powerful or as easy as it was in this game. Mansa is next, and he doesn't exactly have the most powerful UU around, nor traits that lend themselves to warmongering. So I'm hesitant to get cocky after this game. Samurai are a powerful upgrade to one of the best vanilla units in the game. Skirmishers? Hmmm...

 

[kniteowl]

knightowl, I'd be amazed if I get to Industrialization before the game is through, let alone Assembly Line and Infantry. The invasion will be carried out by the existing Rennaissance units.

LOL My bad I didn't realize the Industrilism Required Electricity. Btw you forgot to load a saved game again.

 

[jerVL/kg]

Right now, though, I'm researching Steam Power. It's needed for Assembly Line and Railroad, after all, and will reveal coal. These are probably the main discussion points this round: what's a higher priority--Assembly Line for Infantry and the Pentagon, or Railroad for Machine Guns?

Definitely Assembly Line first, with a pit stop for Communism if you have time. You want to get started on The Pentagon as soon as the Ironworks finishes. At some point you'll want Railroad (to build, well, railroads) but your workers already have enough to do...such as cottaging all those grassland farms around Cologne!

Statue of Liberty in Ankara? Wouldn't Rome make a better choice, with those Merchant wonders you already have there?

I do like the idea of an Industrialism beeline -- invading with fleets of Marines on Galleons is always fun. It all depends on how quickly you want to wrap this up...