HUGE mistake to use the artist for a great work. NEVER use a great work to expand your cultural boundaries unless the opposing cities have no culture whatsoever. I don't understand the mechanics, but a settled artist is vastly more effective. A great work will at most flip a few tiles, which will then flip back quickly unless you are matching culture production. A settled artist will flip tiles to you for centuries; sometimes to the end of the game. If the opposing city doesn't produce much culture, just a settled artist can take away first-ring squares eventually. Settling is also better for a culture win unless you're within 100 turns or so. Plus, a settled artist produces some money too.
ALC Game 13: Mali/Mansa Musa
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
Well I'm happy about the music beeline anyway.
As others have mentioned (and with a buillder set coming), now would be a good time to decide whether you're going to win by culture or space.
If it's culture, get spreading religions and use Karakorum to farm GAs while teching to liberalism. If it's space, get building libraries and monasteries while farming GS in Karakorum and teching the rest of the tree. Cottage-spam plus multiple academies will really benefit you when free speech becomes available. The most important thing with either approach is that you spread Buddhism to Karakorum (if you haven't already) so that you can take advantage of pacifism. Alternating between slavery/orgrel for infrastructure builds and caste/pacifism for GPP can be very powerful.
Either victory condition (even diplo come to think of it) is very doable from this position and neither requires another war. You've already got more than enough land.
As others have mentioned (and with a buillder set coming), now would be a good time to decide whether you're going to win by culture or space.
If it's culture, get spreading religions and use Karakorum to farm GAs while teching to liberalism. If it's space, get building libraries and monasteries while farming GS in Karakorum and teching the rest of the tree. Cottage-spam plus multiple academies will really benefit you when free speech becomes available. The most important thing with either approach is that you spread Buddhism to Karakorum (if you haven't already) so that you can take advantage of pacifism. Alternating between slavery/orgrel for infrastructure builds and caste/pacifism for GPP can be very powerful.
Either victory condition (even diplo come to think of it) is very doable from this position and neither requires another war. You've already got more than enough land.
willpax
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2006
- Messages
- 209
Thanks for the detailed description of the campaign, Sisutil. I see that the tech advantage let you dispense with the "twice the attackers as defenders" guideline.
I understand that one bad outcome would have probably convinced you to delay the rest of the attack until the next turn; what I wondered was whether or not you have a floor threshold for win%--what are the lowest odds you tolerate attacking with? Especially in this case--given Mansa's need for infrastructure, this being the early stage of a campaign, and your weaker production levels, you didn't want to engage in a war of attrition. What are the worst odds you are willing to tolerate? And did you approach those issues differently in the last game with Tokugawa?
I'm a builder through and through, but I think I get too irrational when I conduct a military campaign--once I have the defenders weakened and have (perhaps) lost a few suicide cats, I feel like I need to grab whatever decent chance I can to finish the seige (even down to 50.1% sometimes, which is probably a mistake).
One additional consideration for teching down the road--getting optics and trading it quickly to your neighbors so that they will meet furriners with strange religions around the time their UUs kick in. You need for them to find another enemy in a timely manner (although that can come after a liberalism push, perhaps).
I understand that one bad outcome would have probably convinced you to delay the rest of the attack until the next turn; what I wondered was whether or not you have a floor threshold for win%--what are the lowest odds you tolerate attacking with? Especially in this case--given Mansa's need for infrastructure, this being the early stage of a campaign, and your weaker production levels, you didn't want to engage in a war of attrition. What are the worst odds you are willing to tolerate? And did you approach those issues differently in the last game with Tokugawa?
I'm a builder through and through, but I think I get too irrational when I conduct a military campaign--once I have the defenders weakened and have (perhaps) lost a few suicide cats, I feel like I need to grab whatever decent chance I can to finish the seige (even down to 50.1% sometimes, which is probably a mistake).
One additional consideration for teching down the road--getting optics and trading it quickly to your neighbors so that they will meet furriners with strange religions around the time their UUs kick in. You need for them to find another enemy in a timely manner (although that can come after a liberalism push, perhaps).
Katsin
Chieftain
Sisiutil,
I've been following your threads for quite a while. I'm anxiously awaiting the next few posts and getting a look at those islands.
Just one question. Have you ever played a space race on epic before? The last few hours are like watching paint dry. Even so, I would advise against a cultural victory. I usually plan those from the start, and you haven't exactly been doing so. It's still an option for you but on epic speed the threshold for cultural victory is 75k, I believe?
Great job so far, I'm looking forward to the next installment.
I've been following your threads for quite a while. I'm anxiously awaiting the next few posts and getting a look at those islands.
Just one question. Have you ever played a space race on epic before? The last few hours are like watching paint dry. Even so, I would advise against a cultural victory. I usually plan those from the start, and you haven't exactly been doing so. It's still an option for you but on epic speed the threshold for cultural victory is 75k, I believe?
Great job so far, I'm looking forward to the next installment.
Hi Sisiutil,
Nice round. Just some random thoughts:
I liked how you beelined for Music. I sometimes find myself playing by the same formula over and over. It's much more fun to try out new things, even if it's probably suboptimal. I think people are right when they say you should have settled the GA though.
When you were taking Old Sarai, did you consider attacking with a CR2 Sword first? This would go up against the one defender with the city garrison promotion (with decent odds of winning) so your next attack with a catapult wouldn't have to face him, and have better chances of surviving. This tactic would make it more likely that you will lose zero units, though of course it makes it more likely that you'd lose a promoted sword.
I typically play on Monarch too, I find it interesting that you raze a lot more cities than me. My default is keep them unless they're in really boneheaded locations, you seem to raze them unless they're in very good locations. I tend to get Code Of Laws earlier then you did this game though.
Z
Nice round. Just some random thoughts:
I liked how you beelined for Music. I sometimes find myself playing by the same formula over and over. It's much more fun to try out new things, even if it's probably suboptimal. I think people are right when they say you should have settled the GA though.
When you were taking Old Sarai, did you consider attacking with a CR2 Sword first? This would go up against the one defender with the city garrison promotion (with decent odds of winning) so your next attack with a catapult wouldn't have to face him, and have better chances of surviving. This tactic would make it more likely that you will lose zero units, though of course it makes it more likely that you'd lose a promoted sword.
I typically play on Monarch too, I find it interesting that you raze a lot more cities than me. My default is keep them unless they're in really boneheaded locations, you seem to raze them unless they're in very good locations. I tend to get Code Of Laws earlier then you did this game though.
Z
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
For siege weapons such as catapults, any odds are fine; I expect them to die. However, if one of my seige weapons is 1 XP away from a promotion, I usually have it attack last, after its brethren, when its odds will be better.
For the other units, I prefer odds above 85%, preferably well over 95%. If I bring enough siege weapons, that's usually possible, as it was in this case. I forgot to mention that another factor in my advantage was that Old Serai was not on a hill. In fact, none of Kublai's cities were on hills, which is unusual for the AI. And a good thing too, especially when those Longbows appeared in Ning-hsia. I don't know what sort of a chance my Cats and Swords would have had against them in that situation. I might have had to make peace with Kublai, or lose several veteran units taking the last city.
The problem with cultural at this point is exactly that--I haven't planned for it from the start. So I didn't get to Theology first and I will likely be unable to build the Sistine Chapel. A diversion to Theo now does not make sense; I have more important tasks.
Mind you, a cultural win is still possible without the SC. And if Isabella builds it, well, I could always take it. Frankly, though, if I end up warring again, that also puts a cultural win in doubt. Still possible, though, as the Victoria game showed. The logical candidates for the 3 cities would be Timbuktu, Karakorum (since it will likely get the National Epic and the Globe Theatre), and Kumbi Saleh (since I'd be loading up its culture to keep the piggies, and besides, it already got a big culture boost from the GA).
Now on to other things.
Yes, Buddhism has to spread, and I'll have Djenne build missionaries until it's everywhere.
I forgot I could build culture thanks to Music.
Hey, I'm not used to having it this early. I'll change the un-popped cities' builds immediately. Irrigating 1 of Karakorum's silk tiles is an excellent idea, since I have some extra silk and neither Mehmed nor Isabella need it.
curtadams, I dithered over using the artist for a culture bomb or settling. I wanted the pigs ASAP so I could grow the city. If I lose them later, I should have Civil Service and irrigated tiles around that city to feed it. As for the other Music nay-sayers, remember I did get some important techs and diplomatic bonuses from it, and because of the latter I would therefore include the free CoL from Mehmed as one of its benefits. Besides, I do like experimenting in these games now rather than just doing the same ol', same ol'.
Now, let's talk about a tech path for the next round, shall we? What should I be pursuing once Metal Casting is done? Some are recommending Optics, which means Machinery after MC. On the other hand, there's the Liberalism race--or should I largely rely on a combination of Caste System, Pacifism (eventually) and lightbulbing Great Scientists for those techs while researching towards Caravels? That sounds like an interesting approach. Is it do-able? I think I need someone to double-check the GS lightbulb preferences...
ratrangerm
Prince
One thing I'd keep in mind is this: I've read your other challenge threads and there was more than one occassion in which a civ who was pleased with you decided to forget that and come try to grab your land. There's a chance could Mehmed could do that if he becomes too powerful and you aren't able to get him up to Friendly with you.
Izzy is Friendly with you, and as long as you keep it that way, she won't backstab you. But considering that she founded so many religions, she could end up switching to another if one becomes more dominant than the others... it will be one she founded herself, so she won't have a problem switching, and she can switch easily given her Spiritual trait.
So while you should be aiming for building at this point and working to spread your religion and such (particularly if you decided to go for a Cultural win), keep the units coming out as well and keep them patrolling your borders. That way, you will be ready to go if either Mehmed backstabs you or Izzy suddenly switches religions.
Of course, it's also possible Mehmed could switch. If he does, don't wait for him to backstab you, you do it first. Izzy won't mind as she'll quickly become unhappy if Mehmed switches from Buddhism.
Izzy is Friendly with you, and as long as you keep it that way, she won't backstab you. But considering that she founded so many religions, she could end up switching to another if one becomes more dominant than the others... it will be one she founded herself, so she won't have a problem switching, and she can switch easily given her Spiritual trait.
So while you should be aiming for building at this point and working to spread your religion and such (particularly if you decided to go for a Cultural win), keep the units coming out as well and keep them patrolling your borders. That way, you will be ready to go if either Mehmed backstabs you or Izzy suddenly switches religions.
Of course, it's also possible Mehmed could switch. If he does, don't wait for him to backstab you, you do it first. Izzy won't mind as she'll quickly become unhappy if Mehmed switches from Buddhism.
ratrangerm
Prince
Oh, one thing to add (and for some reason, I can't edit my posts when using my work computer)...
If you are thinking about taking on Mehmed, you could always drive a wedge yourself by spreading religion other than Buddhism to him. That way, Izzy will no longer be on good terms with him and she won't mind if you attack him.
And, of course, keep the miltary built up in between your infrastructure builds.
If you are thinking about taking on Mehmed, you could always drive a wedge yourself by spreading religion other than Buddhism to him. That way, Izzy will no longer be on good terms with him and she won't mind if you attack him.
And, of course, keep the miltary built up in between your infrastructure builds.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Oooh, Machiavellian! I like it.Oh, one thing to add (and for some reason, I can't edit my posts when using my work computer)...
If you are thinking about taking on Mehmed, you could always drive a wedge yourself by spreading religion other than Buddhism to him. That way, Izzy will no longer be on good terms with him and she won't mind if you attack him.
And, of course, keep the miltary built up in between your infrastructure builds.
I think it would be an interesting variation in this game, as KMad said, to keep Izzy alive and pleased-to-friendly. This also fits in with going after The University of Sankore and the Spiral Minaret (both still possibilities), since they'd mean we'd avoid Free Religion until quite late. Besides, Izzy's land sucks, so she won't be much of a threat later in the game, especially with how she lags in tech. Since almost all of Isabella's religions have spread to my cities and I'm Spiritual as well, I could easily switch to whatever religion she chooses.
Mehmed, as you point out, is quite another matter. He has some good land and has built some nice wonders. I could certainly engineer a split between him and Isabella and then reap the benefits. I would only want to take him on with at least a mix of Trebuchets and Macemen, so that could be a while, if ever.
You're right about military. That's why I want to get my HE city going soon. I think I should shift my Settler and Skirmisher over to the production site on the eastern peninsula rather than the commerce site, since it's the most likely candidate for that role. And as has been pointed out, it would cut off Mehmed from that peninsula, if that's what he's trying to do.
Syndrome Zed
Wanna see my quad laser?
Issy already has philo - how confident are you that you can beat her to liberalism? Don't forget the possible Confucian tech mania across the waters, too. You may beat Issy to it, but our whole continent could be far enough behind the other that no one on our continent will get it. I'd say go the MC->Machinery->Optics route and lightbulb what you can when you can. If it turns out the other continent is a small backwater, you could potentially still win the race by lightbulbing like mad. If they're somewhat ahead, you'll have that tech trading potential in hand.
I'd definitely go into builder mode, and think it's a good idea to build culture not only to pop the borders, but maybe even in Kumbi Saleh for a few turns to shore up the pigs. It depends on how fast you're losing your cultural advantage there. I disagree with the people who thought not settling the GA was a mistake, though. Getting a few culture/turn would have helped in the long run, but by the time you'd gotten done waiting for the tile to turn the game would probably be mostly over.
Off-topic-ish: I was thinking, there should be a special diplomatic move added to the game: Royal Marriage![[pimp]](/images/smilies/pimp.gif "Pimp [pimp]")
. If relations are good enough between two civs, and after a certain tech like maybe Divine Right, or only for Civs who are in Hereditary Rule (or whose fave civic is HR, something like that), an option should come up that rather than vassalizes one civ to the other, merges the two civs by merging the Royal bloodlines. This was done throughout history, especially in Europe, so it would be an interesting way to achieve diplomatic victory. Then you could finally melt the Ice Queen's cold heart...
I'd definitely go into builder mode, and think it's a good idea to build culture not only to pop the borders, but maybe even in Kumbi Saleh for a few turns to shore up the pigs. It depends on how fast you're losing your cultural advantage there. I disagree with the people who thought not settling the GA was a mistake, though. Getting a few culture/turn would have helped in the long run, but by the time you'd gotten done waiting for the tile to turn the game would probably be mostly over.
Off-topic-ish: I was thinking, there should be a special diplomatic move added to the game: Royal Marriage
. If relations are good enough between two civs, and after a certain tech like maybe Divine Right, or only for Civs who are in Hereditary Rule (or whose fave civic is HR, something like that), an option should come up that rather than vassalizes one civ to the other, merges the two civs by merging the Royal bloodlines. This was done throughout history, especially in Europe, so it would be an interesting way to achieve diplomatic victory. Then you could finally melt the Ice Queen's cold heart... 
Joxer
Warlord
Im not sure what our victory aim is yet?
Since Izzy has nabbed all the religions but Conf, I would bet that the other continent is prety happy with each other. At least you have denied them the tech guru otherwise I bet they would be long gone in tech. So best to get over there and establish yourself as a "nice guy"
Once you have met the "Others" best to drive a wedge between Mehmed and Izzy and let them weaken each other leaving you the dominant power on your side so you can control both their destinies. Your main source of tech should come from the other island to remain competitive. If you find yourself lagging behind the other island, take some of Mehmed's land with the help of Izzy to bolster your position.
This would put you in a position to go after several victory conditions with a large population and land mass percent.
Space Race
Domination
Cultural (a bit hard w/2nd war)
Time
Since Izzy has nabbed all the religions but Conf, I would bet that the other continent is prety happy with each other. At least you have denied them the tech guru otherwise I bet they would be long gone in tech. So best to get over there and establish yourself as a "nice guy"
Once you have met the "Others" best to drive a wedge between Mehmed and Izzy and let them weaken each other leaving you the dominant power on your side so you can control both their destinies. Your main source of tech should come from the other island to remain competitive. If you find yourself lagging behind the other island, take some of Mehmed's land with the help of Izzy to bolster your position.
This would put you in a position to go after several victory conditions with a large population and land mass percent.
Space Race
Domination
Cultural (a bit hard w/2nd war)
Time
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
The most attractive one at this point seems to be Space Race. It might be interesting to try it with a smaller empire; I usually have a big one at my disposal.
Another thought--which city should eventually host the Ironworks? Maybe Walata? I can't remember if it's on a riverside tile for the TGD (not that the dam is essential for a space race win, but it's nice).
Structure
Chieftain
First, thanks for posting these threads. I've lurked through a few, and learned from and enjoyed each.
I can see why so many people dislike Izzy, but I'll add my voice to those that urge making her a close ally (I'd use another term, but you get the idea) and using her against Mehmed. Izzy may be a crazy dame when she doesn't get her way, but if you learn her language (yes, dear), she's as loyal as they come. The +8 shared religion bonus is huge. Being her pimp is also good because she is unlikely to get too powerful (for reasons you mention).
I've played this game several times from different saves, and without giving away any spoilers...I hate that backstabbing Mehmed...
While I'm breaking my vow of silence and posting, I also wanted to thank you for discussing the mechanics of warfare. I often times have difficulty duplicating your play and results, but when I see what you are actually doing it makes it easier to see where I'm going wrong
, or where I've just been unlucky
.
I can see why so many people dislike Izzy, but I'll add my voice to those that urge making her a close ally (I'd use another term, but you get the idea) and using her against Mehmed. Izzy may be a crazy dame when she doesn't get her way, but if you learn her language (yes, dear), she's as loyal as they come. The +8 shared religion bonus is huge. Being her pimp is also good because she is unlikely to get too powerful (for reasons you mention).
I've played this game several times from different saves, and without giving away any spoilers...I hate that backstabbing Mehmed...
While I'm breaking my vow of silence and posting, I also wanted to thank you for discussing the mechanics of warfare. I often times have difficulty duplicating your play and results, but when I see what you are actually doing it makes it easier to see where I'm going wrong
, or where I've just been unlucky .
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
I'm glad the detailed battle post was appreciated, by yourself and others. I will definitely look for an opportunity to do so again. It sounds like you're hinting that it will be, versus Mehmed.First, thanks for posting these threads. I've lurked through a few, and learned from and enjoyed each.
I can see why so many people dislike Izzy, but I'll add my voice to those that urge making her a close ally (I'd use another term, but you get the idea) and using her against Mehmed. Izzy may be a crazy dame when she doesn't get her way, but if you learn her language (yes, dear), she's as loyal as they come. The +8 shared religion bonus is huge. Being her pimp is also good because she is unlikely to get too powerful (for reasons you mention).
I've played this game several times from different saves, and without giving away any spoilers...I hate that backstabbing Mehmed...
While I'm breaking my vow of silence and posting, I also wanted to thank you for discussing the mechanics of warfare. I often times have difficulty duplicating your play and results, but when I see what you are actually doing it makes it easier to see where I'm going wrong
Frankly, I'm not surprised; he's gaining a reputation as an opportunistic back-stabber. Perhaps we should anticipate having to take him out, rather than just taking a "wait and see" approach. After we get Optics, Civil Service will be attractive for Macemen, and I'll have Machinery soon for Crossbows to hold him off if he attacks first. A few more War Elephants might be in order as well. And I like the idea of spreading a non-Buddhist religion to Mehmed to encourage a break between him and Isabella.
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
"The problem with cultural at this point is exactly that--I haven't planned for it from the start. So I didn't get to Theology first and I will likely be unable to build the [edit: Porcine, fixed that for ya ] Chapel. A diversion to Theo now does not make sense; I have more important tasks.
"Mind you, a cultural win is still possible without the SC. And if Isabella builds it, well, I could always take it. Frankly, though, if I end up warring again, that also puts a cultural win in doubt. Still possible, though, as the Victoria game showed. The logical candidates for the 3 cities would be Timbuktu, Karakorum (since it will likely get the National Epic and the Globe Theatre), and Kumbi Saleh (since I'd be loading up its culture to keep the piggies, and besides, it already got a big culture boost from the GA)."
100% agree. we don't want to go get theo now, we have other priorities. i don't really doubt that you could win culturally. i know you've done it in only one ALC so far, altho i read the victoria thread only after the fact, it was played before i joined the ALC cult myself. and maybe i'm biased since i've done so many cultural wins myself, of so many flavors, that by now to me they're like most lategame wars are to you at the end (that "there ain't no way i'm gonna lose this" feeling after a certain point). so i wonder how interesting it would actually be to watch in progress. but nah, that's my own experience there (whereas i'm a noobie in, like, every other condition and strategy/tactics galore). it would be educational and interesting to a lot of folks so ignore those last two sentences.
thoughts about the actual process of winning culturally at this point: katsin's point about epic speed making the endgame feel slow is a good one about cultural as well as space race. epic and marathon turn out to be faster games usually in real-time for cultural wins if you've worked toward that condition early on. but it can feel, and literally be, a lot slower than that if you focus on it only late, due to taking 75k for each of the 3 cities.
"Now on to other things.
"Yes, Buddhism has to spread, and I'll have Djenne build missionaries until it's everywhere."
yay! timbuktu first pretty please. i'll mention, since a lot of people seem to never have thought about it or tried ... organized religion lets you make missionaries of any type that you have in a city, not just your state religion. you're spiritual, so it's not a huge deal, but it's something to keep in mind before switching to pacifism if you want certain cities (perhaps one with piggies?) to have more than one religion in them, and can spare the time/hammers to make missionaries from the particular cities that have other brands of religion in them before the switch.
"I forgot I could build culture thanks to Music. Hey, I'm not used to having it this early. I'll change the un-popped cities' builds immediately."
i did too. i think of drama and how it lets you raise the cultural slider, but always forget about that side benefit of music.
"I dithered over using the artist for a culture bomb or settling. I wanted the pigs ASAP so I could grow the city. If I lose them later, I should have Civil Service and irrigated tiles around that city to feed it. As for the other Music nay-sayers, remember I did get some important techs and diplomatic bonuses from it, and because of the latter I would therefore include the free CoL from Mehmed as one of its benefits. Besides, I do like experimenting in these games now rather than just doing the same ol', same ol'."
i am 2000% with you there, both in the logic to get them ASAP and for the ALC point of experimenting. cabert agrees too and he is wise concerning culture (and a few other things *giggle*). we have a lot of options for gaining culture per turn in this game once we set our hivemind to it. great works are the only option for getting major culture and tile gains ASAP. and getting CoL later (for free!!!) was awesome.
"Now, let's talk about a tech path for the next round, shall we? What should I be pursuing once Metal Casting is done? Some are recommending Optics, which means Machinery after MC. On the other hand, there's the Liberalism race--or should I largely rely on a combination of Caste System, Pacifism (eventually) and lightbulbing Great Scientists for those techs while researching towards Caravels? That sounds like an interesting approach. Is it do-able? I think I need someone to double-check the GS lightbulb preferences..."
we do want to set a fairly high priority on optics in this game IMO.
the Liberalism race, i'm totally indecisive there. isa has a head start but does the AI tend to priotize that on monarch? i'm on settler recently so i can't remember. i've been playing (and re-playing) g-minor 15 for the last 2 weeks, a competition to see who can get the earliest diplomatic win on vanilla version/settler/standard/epic setting. my best there so far is 110 AD, current first place is 550 BC (!!! that's no typo). i'm in the bulbing mindset way more than i usually am. i know that i popped philo, education, and paper from scientists there. optics was a roadblock, they pop it before paper and philo, so i had to get that out of the way first. wont't be an issue here since we want optics soon regardless, and also because i imagine you'd be popping astro with lib rather than MM like i did. yes, i actually saved the oracle for radio and liberalism for mass media. aaah the fun of sometimes going back to settler and the slooooooow AIs there. "The problem with cultural at this point is exactly that--I haven't planned for it from the start. So I didn't get to Theology first and I will likely be unable to build the [edit: Porcine, fixed that for ya] Chapel. A diversion to Theo now does not make sense; I have more important tasks.
"Mind you, a cultural win is still possible without the SC. And if Isabella builds it, well, I could always take it. Frankly, though, if I end up warring again, that also puts a cultural win in doubt. Still possible, though, as the Victoria game showed. The logical candidates for the 3 cities would be Timbuktu, Karakorum (since it will likely get the National Epic and the Globe Theatre), and Kumbi Saleh (since I'd be loading up its culture to keep the piggies, and besides, it already got a big culture boost from the GA)."
100% agree. we don't want to go get theo now, we have other priorities. i don't really doubt that you could win culturally. i know you've done it in only one ALC so far, altho i read the victoria thread only after the fact, it was played before i joined the ALC cult myself. and maybe i'm biased since i've done so many cultural wins myself, of so many flavors, that by now to me they're like most lategame wars are to you at the end (that "there ain't no way i'm gonna lose this" feeling after a certain point). so i wonder how interesting it would actually be to watch in progress. but nah, that's my own experience there (whereas i'm a noobie in, like, every other condition and strategy/tactics galore). it would be educational and interesting to a lot of folks so ignore those last two sentences.
thoughts about the actual process of winning culturally at this point: katsin's point about epic speed making the endgame feel slow is a good one applies to cultural as well as space race. epic and marathon turn out to be faster games usually in real-time for cultural wins if you've worked toward that condition early on. but it can be much slower than that if you focus on it only late, due to taking 75k for each of the 3 cities.
"Now on to other things.
"Yes, Buddhism has to spread, and I'll have Djenne build missionaries until it's everywhere."
yay! timbuktu first pretty please. i'll mention, since a lot of people seem to never have thought about it or tried ... organized religion lets you make missionaries of any type that you have in a city, not just your state religion. you're spiritual, so it's not a huge deal, but it's something to keep in mind before switching to pacifism if you want certain cities (perhaps one with piggies?) to have more than one religion in them, and can spare the time/hammers to make missionaries from the particular cities that have other brands of religion in them before the switch.
"I forgot I could build culture thanks to Music. Hey, I'm not used to having it this early. I'll change the un-popped cities' builds immediately."
i did too. i think of drama and how it lets you raise the cultural slider, but always forget about that side benefit of music.
"I dithered over using the artist for a culture bomb or settling. I wanted the pigs ASAP so I could grow the city. If I lose them later, I should have Civil Service and irrigated tiles around that city to feed it. As for the other Music nay-sayers, remember I did get some important techs and diplomatic bonuses from it, and because of the latter I would therefore include the free CoL from Mehmed as one of its benefits. Besides, I do like experimenting in these games now rather than just doing the same ol', same ol'."
i am 2000% with you there, both in the logic to get them ASAP and for the ALC point of experimenting. cabert is too and he is wise concerning culture (and a few other things *giggle*). we have a lot of options for gaining culture per turn in this game once we set our hivemind to it. great works are the only option for getting major culture and tile gains ASAP.
"Now, let's talk about a tech path for the next round, shall we? What should I be pursuing once Metal Casting is done? Some are recommending Optics, which means Machinery after MC. On the other hand, there's the Liberalism race--or should I largely rely on a combination of Caste System, Pacifism (eventually) and lightbulbing Great Scientists for those techs while researching towards Caravels? That sounds like an interesting approach. Is it do-able? I think I need someone to double-check the GS lightbulb preferences..."
we do want to set a fairly high priority on optics in this game IMO.
the Liberalism race, i'm totally indecisive there. isa has a head start but does the AI tend to priotize that on monarch? i've on settler recently so i can't remember. i've been playing g-minor 15 for the last 2 weeks, a competition to see who can get the earliest diplomatic win vanilla version/settler/standard/epic setting. my best there so far is 110 AD, current first place is 550 BC (!!! that's no typo). i'm in the bulbing mindset way more than i usually am. i know that i popped philo, education, and paper from scientists there. optics was a roadblock, they wanted to pop it rather than paper and philo, so i had to get that out of the way first. wont't be an issue here since we want optics soon regardless, and also because i imagine you'd be popping astro with it rather than MM like i did. yes, i actually saved the oracle for radio and liberalism for mass media, aaah the fun sometimes of going back to settler and the slooooooow AIs there). they also wanted to pop education before philo, if that's true for vanilla as well, pop philo before you pop paper (which they rank lower than edu) if you can (i forget if i could). doubly so since pacifism will be key for this strat, you're not philo. again, recheck for warlords.
doing this would impact the cultural option by increasing the GPPs needed for GAs later on, something to keep in mind.
if we do lean to the warring side, ratrangem said "If you are thinking about taking on Mehmed, you could always drive a wedge yourself by spreading religion other than Buddhism to him. That way, Izzy will no longer be on good terms with him and she won't mind if you attack him." i've done that before, it can really work wonders diplomatically and be hellacious evil fun if you're prepared for the consequences. might also help if confuscionland looks like a threat, breeding dissent over there to distract them.
blah blah i shall shut up now.
] Chapel. A diversion to Theo now does not make sense; I have more important tasks."Mind you, a cultural win is still possible without the SC. And if Isabella builds it, well, I could always take it. Frankly, though, if I end up warring again, that also puts a cultural win in doubt. Still possible, though, as the Victoria game showed. The logical candidates for the 3 cities would be Timbuktu, Karakorum (since it will likely get the National Epic and the Globe Theatre), and Kumbi Saleh (since I'd be loading up its culture to keep the piggies, and besides, it already got a big culture boost from the GA)."
100% agree. we don't want to go get theo now, we have other priorities. i don't really doubt that you could win culturally. i know you've done it in only one ALC so far, altho i read the victoria thread only after the fact, it was played before i joined the ALC cult myself. and maybe i'm biased since i've done so many cultural wins myself, of so many flavors, that by now to me they're like most lategame wars are to you at the end (that "there ain't no way i'm gonna lose this" feeling after a certain point). so i wonder how interesting it would actually be to watch in progress. but nah, that's my own experience there (whereas i'm a noobie in, like, every other condition and strategy/tactics galore). it would be educational and interesting to a lot of folks so ignore those last two sentences.
thoughts about the actual process of winning culturally at this point: katsin's point about epic speed making the endgame feel slow is a good one about cultural as well as space race. epic and marathon turn out to be faster games usually in real-time for cultural wins if you've worked toward that condition early on. but it can feel, and literally be, a lot slower than that if you focus on it only late, due to taking 75k for each of the 3 cities.
"Now on to other things.
"Yes, Buddhism has to spread, and I'll have Djenne build missionaries until it's everywhere."
yay! timbuktu first pretty please. i'll mention, since a lot of people seem to never have thought about it or tried ... organized religion lets you make missionaries of any type that you have in a city, not just your state religion. you're spiritual, so it's not a huge deal, but it's something to keep in mind before switching to pacifism if you want certain cities (perhaps one with piggies?) to have more than one religion in them, and can spare the time/hammers to make missionaries from the particular cities that have other brands of religion in them before the switch.
"I forgot I could build culture thanks to Music.
Hey, I'm not used to having it this early. I'll change the un-popped cities' builds immediately."i did too. i think of drama and how it lets you raise the cultural slider, but always forget about that side benefit of music.
"I dithered over using the artist for a culture bomb or settling. I wanted the pigs ASAP so I could grow the city. If I lose them later, I should have Civil Service and irrigated tiles around that city to feed it. As for the other Music nay-sayers, remember I did get some important techs and diplomatic bonuses from it, and because of the latter I would therefore include the free CoL from Mehmed as one of its benefits. Besides, I do like experimenting in these games now rather than just doing the same ol', same ol'."
i am 2000% with you there, both in the logic to get them ASAP and for the ALC point of experimenting. cabert agrees too and he is wise concerning culture (and a few other things *giggle*). we have a lot of options for gaining culture per turn in this game once we set our hivemind to it. great works are the only option for getting major culture and tile gains ASAP. and getting CoL later (for free!!!) was awesome.
"Now, let's talk about a tech path for the next round, shall we? What should I be pursuing once Metal Casting is done? Some are recommending Optics, which means Machinery after MC. On the other hand, there's the Liberalism race--or should I largely rely on a combination of Caste System, Pacifism (eventually) and lightbulbing Great Scientists for those techs while researching towards Caravels? That sounds like an interesting approach. Is it do-able? I think I need someone to double-check the GS lightbulb preferences..."
we do want to set a fairly high priority on optics in this game IMO.
the Liberalism race, i'm totally indecisive there. isa has a head start but does the AI tend to priotize that on monarch? i'm on settler recently so i can't remember. i've been playing (and re-playing) g-minor 15 for the last 2 weeks, a competition to see who can get the earliest diplomatic win on vanilla version/settler/standard/epic setting. my best there so far is 110 AD, current first place is 550 BC (!!! that's no typo). i'm in the bulbing mindset way more than i usually am. i know that i popped philo, education, and paper from scientists there. optics was a roadblock, they pop it before paper and philo, so i had to get that out of the way first. wont't be an issue here since we want optics soon regardless, and also because i imagine you'd be popping astro with lib rather than MM like i did. yes, i actually saved the oracle for radio and liberalism for mass media. aaah the fun of sometimes going back to settler and the slooooooow AIs there. "The problem with cultural at this point is exactly that--I haven't planned for it from the start. So I didn't get to Theology first and I will likely be unable to build the [edit: Porcine, fixed that for ya
] Chapel. A diversion to Theo now does not make sense; I have more important tasks."Mind you, a cultural win is still possible without the SC. And if Isabella builds it, well, I could always take it. Frankly, though, if I end up warring again, that also puts a cultural win in doubt. Still possible, though, as the Victoria game showed. The logical candidates for the 3 cities would be Timbuktu, Karakorum (since it will likely get the National Epic and the Globe Theatre), and Kumbi Saleh (since I'd be loading up its culture to keep the piggies, and besides, it already got a big culture boost from the GA)."
100% agree. we don't want to go get theo now, we have other priorities. i don't really doubt that you could win culturally. i know you've done it in only one ALC so far, altho i read the victoria thread only after the fact, it was played before i joined the ALC cult myself. and maybe i'm biased since i've done so many cultural wins myself, of so many flavors, that by now to me they're like most lategame wars are to you at the end (that "there ain't no way i'm gonna lose this" feeling after a certain point). so i wonder how interesting it would actually be to watch in progress. but nah, that's my own experience there (whereas i'm a noobie in, like, every other condition and strategy/tactics galore). it would be educational and interesting to a lot of folks so ignore those last two sentences.
thoughts about the actual process of winning culturally at this point: katsin's point about epic speed making the endgame feel slow is a good one applies to cultural as well as space race. epic and marathon turn out to be faster games usually in real-time for cultural wins if you've worked toward that condition early on. but it can be much slower than that if you focus on it only late, due to taking 75k for each of the 3 cities.
"Now on to other things.
"Yes, Buddhism has to spread, and I'll have Djenne build missionaries until it's everywhere."
yay! timbuktu first pretty please. i'll mention, since a lot of people seem to never have thought about it or tried ... organized religion lets you make missionaries of any type that you have in a city, not just your state religion. you're spiritual, so it's not a huge deal, but it's something to keep in mind before switching to pacifism if you want certain cities (perhaps one with piggies?) to have more than one religion in them, and can spare the time/hammers to make missionaries from the particular cities that have other brands of religion in them before the switch.
"I forgot I could build culture thanks to Music.
Hey, I'm not used to having it this early. I'll change the un-popped cities' builds immediately."i did too. i think of drama and how it lets you raise the cultural slider, but always forget about that side benefit of music.
"I dithered over using the artist for a culture bomb or settling. I wanted the pigs ASAP so I could grow the city. If I lose them later, I should have Civil Service and irrigated tiles around that city to feed it. As for the other Music nay-sayers, remember I did get some important techs and diplomatic bonuses from it, and because of the latter I would therefore include the free CoL from Mehmed as one of its benefits. Besides, I do like experimenting in these games now rather than just doing the same ol', same ol'."
i am 2000% with you there, both in the logic to get them ASAP and for the ALC point of experimenting. cabert is too and he is wise concerning culture (and a few other things *giggle*). we have a lot of options for gaining culture per turn in this game once we set our hivemind to it. great works are the only option for getting major culture and tile gains ASAP.
"Now, let's talk about a tech path for the next round, shall we? What should I be pursuing once Metal Casting is done? Some are recommending Optics, which means Machinery after MC. On the other hand, there's the Liberalism race--or should I largely rely on a combination of Caste System, Pacifism (eventually) and lightbulbing Great Scientists for those techs while researching towards Caravels? That sounds like an interesting approach. Is it do-able? I think I need someone to double-check the GS lightbulb preferences..."
we do want to set a fairly high priority on optics in this game IMO.
the Liberalism race, i'm totally indecisive there. isa has a head start but does the AI tend to priotize that on monarch? i've on settler recently so i can't remember. i've been playing g-minor 15 for the last 2 weeks, a competition to see who can get the earliest diplomatic win vanilla version/settler/standard/epic setting. my best there so far is 110 AD, current first place is 550 BC (!!! that's no typo). i'm in the bulbing mindset way more than i usually am. i know that i popped philo, education, and paper from scientists there. optics was a roadblock, they wanted to pop it rather than paper and philo, so i had to get that out of the way first. wont't be an issue here since we want optics soon regardless, and also because i imagine you'd be popping astro with it rather than MM like i did. yes, i actually saved the oracle for radio and liberalism for mass media, aaah the fun sometimes of going back to settler and the slooooooow AIs there). they also wanted to pop education before philo, if that's true for vanilla as well, pop philo before you pop paper (which they rank lower than edu) if you can (i forget if i could). doubly so since pacifism will be key for this strat, you're not philo. again, recheck for warlords.
doing this would impact the cultural option by increasing the GPPs needed for GAs later on, something to keep in mind.
if we do lean to the warring side, ratrangem said "If you are thinking about taking on Mehmed, you could always drive a wedge yourself by spreading religion other than Buddhism to him. That way, Izzy will no longer be on good terms with him and she won't mind if you attack him." i've done that before, it can really work wonders diplomatically and be hellacious evil fun if you're prepared for the consequences. might also help if confuscionland looks like a threat, breeding dissent over there to distract them.
blah blah i shall shut up now.
Structure
Chieftain
I'm glad the detailed battle post was appreciated, by yourself and others. I will definitely look for an opportunity to do so again. It sounds like you're hinting that it will be, versus Mehmed.
To be fair, you are better at diplomacy than I so results may differ. Either way, having Izzy messing with Mehmed is good for you (unless she starts a war and then loses it.)
You have plenty to worry about ahead. I'm looking forward to seeing how you'll deal with it. Mehmed is just one problem
Jezz, it's hard not to spoil the thread!
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
I'm glad the detailed battle post was appreciated, by yourself and others. I will definitely look for an opportunity to do so again. It sounds like you're hinting that it will be, versus Mehmed.
Perhaps we should anticipate having to take him out, rather than just taking a "wait and see" approach. After we get Optics, Civil Service will be attractive for Macemen, and I'll have Machinery soon for Crossbows to hold him off if he attacks first. A few more War Elephants might be in order as well. And I like the idea of spreading a non-Buddhist religion to Mehmed to encourage a break between him and Isabella.
oops so much for me shutting up.
mehmed ranks twice as high as isabella on the "bastard chart" AI-coding wise. she's more likely to declare war at friendly, but she's easy to keep at pleased IME when you want to. he's more likely to train units when deciding what to build than she is. part of why he's higher is his dogpile tendency, that wouldn't come into play here, nobody else would be pounding on ya for him to be cheesy and opportunistic about. but yeah i'd watch him more closely than her, as long as we keep her friendly and obsessed with religious matters and how wise your religious choices are.
ps to S - do you consider checking coding to be spoilerish? i know you consider meta-factors such as favorite civics and such so i'd been assuming that you don't but if i shouldn't post stuff like that let me know.
pigswill
fly (one day)
You seem to be falling behind on tech so far (in my shadow 575ad save I was 2 turns from optics and had philosophy (tho' not music!); I'd also taken out Spain (2 minor cities left) and build Glib and Temple of Solomon) so it'll be interesting to see how you catch up.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
I don't check the XML myself, but I appreciate other people contributing their insights in that regard. These threads are all about learning to play the game better and enjoy it more.
Prepare to be amazed.
Sisiutil,
I don't think the current tech situation should be any concern. Fighting a war always puts you a bit behind. But in short order you can recover and surge ahead. The current update occurred at the worst possible time in that regard, right after the war ended. You're currently first in land and your new cities haven't claimed all their tiles yet and you still have at least 2 more cities to found. This is almost all good land too, with high cottage potential. Playing a leader with the Fin trait it's hard to see how you would not end up # 1 in GNP given this situation.
Also related to the tech situation you haven't generated any GP yet. This means the cheap GPs are still available and with pacifism soon to be available you could generate several GPs in the next round if you choose to go that route. Three GSs would let you lightbulb Philosophy, Paper (after CS is complete) and most of Education. So I don't think losing out on Liberalism is likely.
In thinking about taking on Mehmed you might want to consider the timing of the war, specifically timing it to avoid facing Janissaries. They're not indestructible, but they do have bonuses against all the units you would be using. To attack before Janissaries you would probably want to bee-line Engineering and CS from this point. The alternative would be to wait until grens, rifles, cannons and cavalry are available. If you choose to attack sooner rather than later can you get your economy in order before launching the next war? If not you face the real prospect of falling behind.
I'd personally prefer to see you try to play it out peacefully, but there definitely are benefits to fighting another war. And Mehmed may not give you any choice.
As to victory condition to play for one thought that occurred to me is that it might be interesting to try for cultural. The general thinking on cultural wins is that you have to start off the game planning to play for it, and that it's hard to switch to it mid-game. This might be an opportunity to see how difficult it truly is. You would still have space as an option if cultural doesn't look like it's going to work out.
Any thoughts on what to do with the barb city in the SW?
If you do succeed in flipping Santiago will you keep it or disband it? It's a crappy city location, but it is the Christian holy city.
I don't think the current tech situation should be any concern. Fighting a war always puts you a bit behind. But in short order you can recover and surge ahead. The current update occurred at the worst possible time in that regard, right after the war ended. You're currently first in land and your new cities haven't claimed all their tiles yet and you still have at least 2 more cities to found. This is almost all good land too, with high cottage potential. Playing a leader with the Fin trait it's hard to see how you would not end up # 1 in GNP given this situation.
Also related to the tech situation you haven't generated any GP yet. This means the cheap GPs are still available and with pacifism soon to be available you could generate several GPs in the next round if you choose to go that route. Three GSs would let you lightbulb Philosophy, Paper (after CS is complete) and most of Education. So I don't think losing out on Liberalism is likely.
In thinking about taking on Mehmed you might want to consider the timing of the war, specifically timing it to avoid facing Janissaries. They're not indestructible, but they do have bonuses against all the units you would be using. To attack before Janissaries you would probably want to bee-line Engineering and CS from this point. The alternative would be to wait until grens, rifles, cannons and cavalry are available. If you choose to attack sooner rather than later can you get your economy in order before launching the next war? If not you face the real prospect of falling behind.
I'd personally prefer to see you try to play it out peacefully, but there definitely are benefits to fighting another war. And Mehmed may not give you any choice.
As to victory condition to play for one thought that occurred to me is that it might be interesting to try for cultural. The general thinking on cultural wins is that you have to start off the game planning to play for it, and that it's hard to switch to it mid-game. This might be an opportunity to see how difficult it truly is. You would still have space as an option if cultural doesn't look like it's going to work out.
Any thoughts on what to do with the barb city in the SW?
If you do succeed in flipping Santiago will you keep it or disband it? It's a crappy city location, but it is the Christian holy city.
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