ALC Game 13: Mali/Mansa Musa

[Nonobots]

You might recall that posting the start grew out of the first ALC, when I instead started by posting the first few turns and everyone wondered why the heck I didn't found the capital on a very convenient plains hill. To prevent such oversights, I started posting the start.

The discussions about the first turn are very educational to me, and I guess for many inexperienced player too. Those dicussions, and the one around dotmapping make for a very good class of Applied City Placement. I've read the manual and tips, but now I get to see the reasoning applied to a very concrete situation. It sure helped me develop my reading of the maps regarding city placement.

Thanks again and keep arguing!

 

[Torvoni]

Here is my recommended tech build path:

• Agriculture​
• Mysticism​
• Pottery​
• Animal Husbandry​
• Masonry​
• Polytheism​
• Writing​
• Monotheism​
• Monarchy​
• Theology​
• Divine Right​

Financial plus cottages should provide enough beakers to make it first to Divine Right. Since this is the ALC, you should play each leader the way that leader WANTS to be played. For an added touch of realism you should make Islam your state religion and try to convert everyone around you too.​

Everyone in these threads is always talking about various slingshots by careful use of great people and wonders and whatever.​

Is Bronze Working really that massively overpowered that it must be super early in the tech path?​

Dare to be different!​

(Now all the skillful players are convinced that I'm a total noob. What fun is it when every game follows a similar tech path?)​

 

[CivMarco]

Here is my recommended tech build path:

• Agriculture​
• Mysticism​
• Pottery​
• Animal Husbandry​
• Masonry​
• Polytheism​
• Writing​
• Monotheism​
• Monarchy​
• Theology​
• Divine Right​

Financial plus cottages should provide enough beakers to make it first to Divine Right. Since this is the ALC, you should play each leader the way that leader WANTS to be played. For an added touch of realism you should make Islam your state religion and try to convert everyone around you too.​

Everyone in these threads is always talking about various slingshots by careful use of great people and wonders and whatever.​

Is Bronze Working really that massively overpowered that it must be super early in the tech path?​

Dare to be different!​

(Now all the skillful players are convinced that I'm a total noob. What fun is it when every game follows a similar tech path?)​

Long time lurker, first time poster!

I'm sure that Mansa wouldn't have shied away from a little slavery every now and then. I would suggest that Bronze Working is too good a tech to miss out on.

Sisutil, I find that these ALC games (along with the EMC games) has drastically improved my own somewhat mediocre game. KUTGW!

 

[LosBlack]

Since this is the ALC, you should play each leader the way that leader WANTS to be played.

Is Bronze Working really that massively overpowered that it must be super early in the tech path?​

Dare to be different!​

(Now all the skillful players are convinced that I'm a total noob. What fun is it when every game follows a similar tech path?)​

what a great post! best post i've seen in a while, as a matter of fact. seems so obvious, but i'll bet that nobody else would put it out there to that extent. i certainly wouldn't. why not? because we have to win. the map dictates all, the map made me do it! it even changes our "decided" vicitory conditions 1/2 the time. with Torvoni's idea, you not only use the traits to their max, but role-play the character a bit. nice change of pace. you still need to utilize the map of course, you just don't bow down to it like we always do in all of our games. "I'm in charge here!"

only 2 things i would change: missing here is somewhat-early Archery. slide that in there somewhere, make it work, and then win. financial will fund research, if you like/can peaceful expansion. second, instead of researching Monarchy, research Priesthood earlier and take Monarchy from the Oracle and grow your cities under HR.

if it all falls to pieces by 1AD, drop it like it's hot, and i'll bet you still tech like a race horse and beat every AI to space with that rabbit you keep in your hat.

fly in the face of convention. the last ALC was set up like a bowling pin and knocked down with a ball the size of Texas..and by Texas i mean the moon. you want an added degree of difficulty, here it is. and it's brilliant!

*** EDIT *** : stupid long post..welcome to the Sound-Off Club, CivMarco! i agree BW is good, but i don't think anything is "too good" to pass up for a while. certainly not a game breaker. we can always convince Sisiutil to find out for us.

 

[Todd Roy]

Here is my recommended tech build path:

• Agriculture​
• Mysticism​
• Pottery​
• Animal Husbandry​
• Masonry​
• Polytheism​
• Writing​
• Monotheism​
• Monarchy​
• Theology​
• Divine Right​

So, completely ignore Skirmishers and Mints? I'm not sure Mansa "wants" to be played without his unique unit AND building.

 

[Sisiutil]

how many times did you regenerate for such a start???

Honestly? Once. The initial start was smack-dab in the middle of a long one-tile isthmus. Granted, it had 3 seafood resources and corn, but no hills or forests. If I'd been playing as Alexander I probably would have taken it. For Mansa, though, it looked like it would have been a start totally at odds with Mansa's characteristics--good for any challenge other than the ALC, where we seek to optimize them.

On the regen I saw gems, food, and grassland and knew I'd found our start. I didn't think much more about the other details until I wrote the first post.

I usually don't regenerate the map for the ALC unless, as I said, the start seems totally at odds with making the leader's characteristics work.

settling in place gives you an option on poly and monotheism. A far away option, but not null. I may try it in a shadow game, but it's not failsafe enough to be tried here.
You want to show the power of mint, so I would go
- agri, hunting, AH, archery, BW, pottery
- worker, scout, settler, skirmisher, skirmisher, worker, settler

This is very similar to vormuir's plan (in fact it goes a couple of steps further) and I like it a lot.

Torvini's unusual suggestion is intriguing, but my main problem with it, as Todd Roy pointed out, is that it neglects both the UU and the UB, and in the ALCs we make those priorities. It sounds like a cool strat to try with Egypt, for example, especially if you put AH earlier.

 

[Todd Roy]

Ahem. "Todd Roy". =)

 

[Sisiutil]

Ahem. "Todd Roy". =)

Fixed in true Soviet revisionist fashion. "Glorious leader does not to be making mistakes, comrade."

 

[carl corey]

Hehe, I see a clash between using the UU and the - for me - most obvious path. Honestly, no other leader starts with Mining and the Wheel! If there's just ONE leader who should aim for early BW, it's this one. Axes as first troops means you can promoted them against both Barb Warriors and Barb Archers without needing to build Barracks. A few shock Axes can easily deal even with incoming Barb Axes, and if you find a neighbor nearby he's dead meat. Two capitals that early is not something that should easily be neglected.

Edit: Think of this as the Quechua rush you never got to do.

 

[Seipheroth]

If you are not chasing a religion right out of the gate, I don’t see much harm in moving the settler 1S to check out the lay of the land. If it looks good you can settle next turn, if it doesn’t look good then you move back to the original spot. The jungle to the south is not a major issue, as there are enough good tiles to be worked for quite sometime, and I would imagine we will have iron working long before running out of good tiles becomes an issue.

Regardless, warrior should go 1NE first, see if there is another food resource that would be in the second city’s BFC as piglets. If there is not, moving the settler is moot point.

oops....i meant NW not NE, definitely NW. Where's my compass?

I agree with Cabert’s suggested tech and build path, only I would build another skirmisher. If you discover ponies after AH, then normally I would not research Arch, but we want to emphasize the UU so the tech path should probably stand even if ponies were found.

Lastly, I enjoy the blank slate discussion.

 

[Torvoni]

Very interesting.

I'm campaigning for the concept of playing toward a sort of pseudo realistic historical scenario, as expressed by this article: http://www.history.com/classroom/unesco/timbuktu/mansamoussa.html and many others out there on the web. The main thing that jumped out at me was that Mansa Musa made King Midas look like an amateur, and that he was really into spreading the Muslim influence everywhere.

In trying to create some kind of tech path which grants Skirmishers, and Mints, and still gives a good shot at being first to discover Divine Right ... well it is really hard to do without taking almost the entire tree.

I guess it is somewhat important to get Skirmishers relatively early, because otherwise they become entirely pointless, which is a problem with all the early Unique Units anyway.

I don't think it is important to get Metal Casting particularly early, because you will use Forges (i.e. Mints) for the rest of the game. If happiness becomes an issue then hooking it up becomes more pressing.

Just to be clear: I'm not a skillful player.

The ALC threads are fun and interesting. Thanks to Sisiutil and everyone else for giving me a fun diversion during my tedious workdays.

How about this then:
As a victory condition -- rule out both Domination and Conquest. Any of Space Race, Cultural, Diplomatic, or Time would be more reasonable.

It would be exciting to DELAY (not ignore) the Bronze Working path. Know what I mean?

 

[Syndrome Zed]

If you are not chasing a religion right out of the gate, I don’t see much harm in moving the settler 1S to check out the lay of the land. If it looks good you can settle next turn, if it doesn’t look good then you move back to the original spot. The jungle to the south is not a major issue, as there are enough good tiles to be worked for quite sometime, and I would imagine we will have iron working long before running out of good tiles becomes an issue.

I tend to go with VoA (indirectly) and Seipheroth - move the settler 1S first, since it won't hurt unless you're going for a religion run. I like the idea of being settled on the river and having the gems effectively pre-hooked up for you, so if 1S turns out ok, it'd give you a little extra boost out of the gate. If not, like Seph said, you can always go back.

Oh yeah, @Torvoni: Your victory "conditions" are exactly what he was planning on trying with Manny - peaceful (relatively speaking) victory of some sort.

 

[uncarved block]

OK, so I went ahead and played one turn off the save, just to release the tension.. No comment on settling in place, or anything like that as a result. One bit of trivia, which may or may not come in handy later: each square is .1% of the total map. (After building, the total for land percentage was .91) If you get another rogue's gallery of neighbors like the Hannibal game, a military victory might be in the future.

Along those lines, I'd have to vote for BW as a first tech. Assuming a Worker as first build (no reason not to), it will have plenty to do while you research a second, even third tech, and before then all you'll have is exploring. Chopping/whipping a Skirmisher rush might end up being a good idea if someone like Monty or Shaka is next door, which is something you'll discover in the next 12-15 turns, barring a run in with some Bears. If you end up being alone, you can research Ag or Animal Loving next and still have the most useful early tech in the bag. Just because Skirmishers free you from the rush to find metals doesn't mean BW should take a back burner.

To start with the OT talk early , there's a really geeky joy to talking about Civ (or playing it!) with Eugen Weber's course in world history on the telly. Check and see if your local public access television has a prof using it for a class. Or your local library might have a copy to check out. A peculiar pleasure, perhaps, but I like it.

 

[thefais]

Settle in place, obviously. Gems sometimes come in twos, so you might get lucky with another in the black...

Get pottery quick and get to cottaging. YAY financial!

 

[LosBlack]

the "modified Torvoni" tech path wouldn't ignore your UU, and half or 2/3 of the way through, branch to BW->MC, and mint away if you think your opportunity cost is too great. i have a feeling tech rate will be quick anyways.

either way, i would really like to see you try to slip priesthood in early and take Monarchy with the Oracle for HR/pop growth with your Financial trait. big cities in the BC era will solve any "which tech" next dilemmas..it'll be "oh i guess i don't have Music yet, only 2 turns, might as well.." how fast can we launch that spaceship?

if you're not going to try Torvoni's idea, would one of the other "good" players around here care to play and share a shadow game with us using this approach?

 

[rustydusty10]

I had a look at the save and all i can say is, Hmmm...Interesting!

 

[Sisiutil]

Very interesting.

I'm campaigning for the concept of playing toward a sort of pseudo realistic historical scenario, as expressed by this article: http://www.history.com/classroom/unesco/timbuktu/mansamoussa.html and many others out there on the web. The main thing that jumped out at me was that Mansa Musa made King Midas look like an amateur, and that he was really into spreading the Muslim influence everywhere.

In trying to create some kind of tech path which grants Skirmishers, and Mints, and still gives a good shot at being first to discover Divine Right ... well it is really hard to do without taking almost the entire tree.

Some characteristics of Civ make playing in a historically accurate way difficult to accomplish. The real-world spread of Islam in particular. Early religions tend to have a huge advantage because they spread sooner, and therefore wider. In most games, either Buddhism or Hinduism tend to dominate the map.

One innovation that might help in this regard is a "crusader" promotion (though I know that an "Islamic crusader" would be something of a contradiction, I hope you catch my drift). The unit with the crusader promotion would be both a military unit and a missionary. If the last unit to attack and capture a foreign city is one with this promotion, your State Religion is automatically spread to that city. Or something like that. This reflects the historical tendency of Christian and Muslim campaigners to forcibly convert peoples that they conquered. Because of their religious fervor, units with this promotion should also get some sort of additional upgrade to strength or something. And maybe the promotion can only be granted when running Theocracy? Or maybe there is no promotion, but this is an added effect of capturing a city while running the Theocracy civic?

Anyway, that's an idea for a mod, expansion pack, or next version. Since all religions are treated equally in Civ, the "historically accurate" approach to take, I think, would be to have Mansa spread his state religion fervently, no matter what it is.

Will I do that in this game? It really depends. Obviously if I'm successful at pursuing my Spiral Minaret/U. of Sankore strat (wonders which, as I pointed out, have some definite historical relevance to Mansa, the first indirectly, the second very directly), I'll need to spread my SR to all my cities, and build the SR's religious buildings to maximize the effects of the wonder.

 

[manu-fan]

Just move your warrior north, settle in place, and get on with it

Cheers.

 

[ratrangerm]

I'd favor settling in place as well. You've got plenty of ideal spots for cottages.

Only reason I'd move is if you want to save the Pigs for City No. 2. Moving the Warrior first will help you decide. If you can find another way to work City No. 2, then go with it. If not, then move the Settler 1S and settle there next turn.

 

[Sisiutil]

Just move your warrior north, settle in place, and get on with it

Cheers.

Short, blunt, and to the point. I love it. Stick around!

I may just follow this advice and play the first round and post it tonight. I'm thinking if the warrior goes to the NE hill and reveals seafood for a northern city, I settle in place; if he shows nothing but water, I move 1S and if it's an acceptable location (i.e not a bunch of unworkable deserts or peaks to the south), settle there and leave the piggies for the northern city.

On a different, big-picture note while we wait, this is ALC #13. There are 36 leaders in the game. Sheesh! Here I thought I was making good progress. Mind you, I have played several off-line games as both Caesars, Elizabeth, and Ramesses, who collectively are my favourites. I've also played at least one game as Roosevelt, Washington, Catherine, and Gandhi. So I've played just over half of the various leaders. I would have played as more, but I prefer to wait to have my first experience with each untried leader here in the ALC threads.

I don't know if I'll manage ALCs with all 36. That's a lot of games to play and post. Then again, there are enough leaders remaining to possibly take us all the way up to Deity level! At any rate, here's a plan to go through the rest of the leaders:

14 Mongolia/Kublai Khan
15 Ottoman/Mehmed
16 Persia/Cyrus
17 Russia/Peter
18 Spain/Isabella
19 Viking/Ragnar
20 Zulu/Shaka
21 America/Roosevelt
22 Arab/Saladin
23 Celts/Brennus
24 England/Churchill
25 France/Napoleon
26 Germany/Bismarck
27 Korea/Wang Kon
28 India/Mahatma Gandhi
29 Mongolia/Genghis Khan
30 Rome/Julius Caesar
31 Russia/Stalin
32 America/George Washington
33 Egypt/Rammeses
34 England/Elizabeth
35 Rome/Augustus Caesar
36 Russia/Catherine

It seems appropriate to save most of my "favourites" to the end, for the toughest levels. Who knows if we'll get to either all of these leaders or Deity level, but we'll have fun trying!