ALC Game 13: Mali/Mansa Musa

[KMadCandy]

On a different, big-picture note while we wait, this is ALC #13. There are 36 leaders in the game. Sheesh! Here I thought I was making good progress. Mind you, I have played several off-line games as both Caesars, Elizabeth, and Ramesses, who collectively are my favourites. I've also played at least one game as Roosevelt, Washington, Catherine, and Gandhi. So I've played just over half of the various leaders. I would have played as more, but I prefer to wait to have my first experience with each untried leader here in the ALC threads.

awww, that's so sweet. you're saving yourself for us! OMG that sounds SO wrong. but reading that makes me feel guilty buster.

Who knows if we'll get to either all of these leaders or Deity level, but we'll have fun trying!

just remember, we have to get through them all by 2050!!!

 

[Melon Head]

Sounds like an excellent plan, Sisiutil. I'd also recommend that if the ALC games begin to drag, don't worry about snagging one of your favorite leaders and playing a quick, victorious ALC (similar to Japan, but perhaps even faster/easier, as you won't be experimenting with new stuff since you have played/like the leader); we all love the ALC, and would rather keep you happy with it than mold every game to our tastes.

 

[PMabey]

With so many leaders left, i say - Get on with it. Settle in place, move the warrior wherever you like and lets get round 1 going. No i'm joking, but seriously settle in place - its too good of a start.

 

[LucyDuke]

Put another down for settle in place. I can't imagine that there's going to be anything terribly compelling one tile south, and if there is, well, you can catch it with another city later. That's an impressive starting location. No need to waste two turns making sure.

The warrior, well, I'd send him NW. Looks like it's water to the east, and I like to find my neighbors quickly. Climb that hill and see what's on the other side.

 

[Harbourboy]

Settle in place.

 

[Seipheroth]

I'm thinking if the warrior goes to the NE hill and reveals seafood for a northern city, I settle in place; if he shows nothing but water, I move 1S and if it's an acceptable location (i.e not a bunch of unworkable deserts or peaks to the south), settle there and leave the piggies for the northern city.

Really? I would be inclined to try the opposite. If I saw a health source of omega-3 fatty acids out in those waters, I would be tempted to move my first city 1S and allow the northern city to have access to both pigs and the cholesterol-lowering marine life. With a few mountains and 2 food resources, this city would end up being a nice port and a good site for Colossus (which, to me, is tempting for Mansu due to likely early mints and the financial trait). As for the first city, yeah, you give up the second food source but you might get lucky and find bananas in the south. Even with 1 food source the first city is going to get plenty of population with the surrounding tiles and eventual watermills. SE economy is not happening with MM so you don’t need loads of extra food tiles, just enough for a few specialists.

 

[patagonia]

I may just follow this advice and play the first round and post it tonight. I'm thinking if the warrior goes to the NE hill and reveals seafood for a northern city, I settle in place; if he shows nothing but water, I move 1S and if it's an acceptable location (i.e not a bunch of unworkable deserts or peaks to the south), settle there and leave the piggies for the northern city.

The problems with moving the settler 1S are that it'll waste 2 turns if you decide you liked the original position better, and it'll dump you deeper into the jungle (you'll pick some up in your fat cross for sure).

 

[flamingzaroc121]

i would definently settle in place unless there is something extremly good to the south. one turn of research isnt going to matter with gems.

so move your settler SE and your warrior NW then see where you stand with good city locations.

 

[popejubal]

Founding in place has rarely been a bad move. Sometimes moving can be a better move, but if it's going to take at least 2 turns to settle (1 to move to the Gems to scout and 1 to move to whereever you're actually going to settle plus another turn if that second move was onto forest or hills), it seems like a lot of work for relatively little gain. We know that Pigs and gems make a decent city on their own and we know that the starting locations are automatically pretty good. Why not just go for it and start playing in 4000 BC instead of 3 turns later back on the same square?

 

[shadow2k]

Here is my recommended tech build path:

• Agriculture​
• Mysticism​
• Pottery​
• Animal Husbandry​
• Masonry​
• Polytheism​
• Writing​
• Monotheism​
• Monarchy​
• Theology​
• Divine Right​

Financial plus cottages should provide enough beakers to make it first to Divine Right. Since this is the ALC, you should play each leader the way that leader WANTS to be played. For an added touch of realism you should make Islam your state religion and try to convert everyone around you too.​

Everyone in these threads is always talking about various slingshots by careful use of great people and wonders and whatever.​

Is Bronze Working really that massively overpowered that it must be super early in the tech path?​

Dare to be different!​

(Now all the skillful players are convinced that I'm a total noob. What fun is it when every game follows a similar tech path?)​

Well, this research path simply wouldn't work. We'll ignore things like not being able to chop trees, clear jungle, or defending with chariots (if you're lucky enough to get horses) for that long.

But how do you intend to research Divine Right in any sort of timely fashion that early in the game? You could do it with Priests, but you don't have Caste System, and can't even build a temple. Not to mention you'd need to research Meditation first anyway. Theology isn't exactly cheap either. You'd really need to research Meditation and Priesthood, build Stonehenge and Oracle in the same city (chopping would help greatly with this), then use the Priests to get to DR while you research techs that will actually help you.

I understand wanting to play a leader out in a certain way. But Divine Right is a really weak tech. That's a lot of effort for not a lot of gain. In a series of games that a lot of readers use to help them improve their games, I don't see the real value in doing something like this. If you manage to get Theology first, which can easily be done with the Oracle or a Priest, nobody else will research it for a while...then you could take your sweet time in getting Divine Right, and research things you actually need first. You'd still end up at the same goal, it would just take a bit longer to get there...but you'd be in a much stronger position when you arrived.

 

[shadow2k]

I may just follow this advice and play the first round and post it tonight. I'm thinking if the warrior goes to the NE hill and reveals seafood for a northern city, I settle in place; if he shows nothing but water, I move 1S and if it's an acceptable location (i.e not a bunch of unworkable deserts or peaks to the south), settle there and leave the piggies for the northern city.

You can see jungle just to your SW as it is. Gems to the SE indicate that there's probably jungle as well. And I'd bet anything that much of what lies south is going to be jungle. Moving S would be a bad idea.

If you really want the pigs for the N, just share them if you need to. The tiles that would overlap, depending on where you settle, aren't that great anyway. You'd rather the capital be working the riverside tiles to it's south, and the shared tiles wouldn't even be an issue to much, much later when your capital was size 15 or so. That's a long, long time down the road to be moving your capital into the jungle for...and losing at least one turn doing it.

 

[patagonia]

If you really want the pigs for the N, just share them if you need to. The tiles that would overlap, depending on where you settle, aren't that great anyway. You'd rather the capital be working the riverside tiles to it's south, and the shared tiles wouldn't even be an issue to much, much later when your capital was size 15 or so. That's a long, long time down the road to be moving your capital into the jungle for...and losing at least one turn doing it.

...and in that time while your capital's growing to size 15 or so, any putative city to the north could be growing towns for it on those squares.

 

[Uncle Istvan]

I too agree with the settle in place plan

 

[Validator]

I think moving the warrior to the NE to check for seafood is the right move. I guess the question is what you're going to do once you have that information? If there is seafood there then a northern city could use it to feed the miners, freeing up the pigs for Timbuktu. OTOH if there are 2 food resources in that city's FC one could argue that the city has some significant long-term potential so maybe the settler should be moved south to free up the pigs.

One other option is to move the settler north and settle the capital in that spot. It would mean giving up the gems until you can build a settler, but it would give you a capital with much higher production capacity, either via whipping or mines or a combination of the two. This would be helpful for either wonder-building or producing units to rush a neighbor.

If there's no seafood in the north then I guess the question is would it be worth moving the settler south to try to make something of the northern site or would be best to settle in place and look for a better city site in the north.

 

[Nonobots]

*waiting for the first post*

I can't wait to see what neighbors, if any, you get.

 

[flamingzaroc121]

i say you move them where ever you feel is the best then post the screen shot and we will argue again

 

[Rancid Sushi]

I'm going to pay much closer attention to this ALC than the previous ones. Mansa is an interesting leader: not exactly meant for war yet not uncapable of doing it successfully.

Sisiutil: IIRC, you said you'd try to pursue a more peaceful victory, but I think it's inevitable that some one will try to pick a fight. Every CIV neighborhood always has a nutjob. If you're committed to a peaceful victory, could you please explain your combat strategies in detail? One of these days I'd like to take a vacation from warmongering and I'd like to see how a more peaceful/defensive approach is done in Warlords.

 

[cabert]

I'm going to pay much closer attention to this ALC than the previous ones. Mansa is an interesting leader: not exactly meant for war yet not uncapable of doing it successfully.

Sisiutil: IIRC, you said you'd try to pursue a more peaceful victory, but I think it's inevitable that some one will try to pick a fight. Every CIV neighborhood always has a nutjob. If you're committed to a peaceful victory, could you please explain your combat strategies in detail? One of these days I'd like to take a vacation from warmongering and I'd like to see how a more peaceful/defensive approach is done in Warlords.

It's easy : diplomacy, no state religion, rexing and cottaging (= cultural victory mostly).

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 1: 4000 BC to 2140 BC

Well, first off, I decided to move the Warrior NE to check for seafood. He found some:



In spite of this, so many people said I should settle in place that I decided to heed their advice. I think it turned out to be the correct decision for so many reasons, as you'll see.



I mean, right away, you can see everyone's assertion about the jungle to the south turned out correct. Moving south would have skewed our research, making Iron Working much more important (it still may be, as you'll see, but for other reasons). And we have a 2nd gem tile and another food source: bananas! Brownie points to those who made that call. Jungle grew over them, unfortunately, but it reinforced my decision to not move south, unless I wanted to run the risk of having jungle on half of the capital's tiles.

My first build was a Worker, to give me time to research Hunting to build a Scout.

My Warrior moved south towards that goody hut the capital's borders revealed :



77 gold... not too shabby! That will fund research at a deficit for a few turns. I managed to pop one more for a little more gold, and then I couldn't find any more huts, probably because of this guy:



YOU again?!? I'm getting sick of this guy! (And of course I'm going to play the next ALC as him...) I'm all for Skirmisher-rushing the jowls that walk like a man, for several reasons, as you'll see. Among them, he starts with Hunting, and I'm sure his Scout beat me to several goody huts, as I mentioned. If my Warrior had been nearby, I would have creamed him. Seriously, I did that to Bismarck's Scout in a recent off-line game; that and stealing one of his workers crippled him pretty effectively.

Several turns later, I finished researching my first tech:



That would allow me to farm the rice right away. I set that as a bigger priority than the gems, since it would boost growth right off the bat.

The next tech was...



As you'll see from the map, ivory appeared to my south and my north, further justifying this tech path.

My wandering Warrior survived two attacks on the same turn, by a lion and a wolf. I gave him the Woodsman I promotion--could be handy with all that jungle around.



And then another neighbour showed up:



Mehmed... okay. I haven't had to deal with him too much besides killing him in the Asoka and Tokugawa games. I get the impression he's relatively easy to get along with (though his favourite civic, Vassalage, isn't one of mine, at least not for long, especially as a Spiritual leader).

Then I obtained my next tech:



And this revealed some very good news!



So here we have another justification for settling in place rather than moving. But now we have something of a conundrum: should we build Skirmishers or Chariots or both? I vote for a mixed force myself.

And I met another neighbour!



Hubba hubba, you sexy religious nut you.

You might notice that Isabella founded Buddhism while Kublai snagged Hinduism. So I think we should obtain a religion easily enough. I'm inclined to hope we go Buddhist; that would score us big points with Izzy, whereas going Hindu would not gain quite as big a diplo bonus with Kublai. And like I said, I'm itching to kill the guy. He keeps popping up in both my ALC and off-line games, and like I said, I'm tired of his ugly mug. Kublai appears to be to my south, while Mehmed is apparently to the west and Isabella is off to the northwest.

In 2620 BC, the UU was on-line:



A few turns after that, I researched Bronze Working and changed civics, anarchy free:



And then in 2140 BC my first Settler completed. I started work on a Skirmisher:



Yes, Chariots are available as well, and they're the same price as Skirmishers. I may build one of those next.

Now here's a look at the map:



Yes, those are Mongolian borders encroaching on my territory to the southwest. And Kublai is now in between me and the only sources of copper and marble revealed thus far. Like I said, I think a combination Skirmisher/Chariot rush of Mongolia may be called for--especially to prevent him getting to his UU. You do see the horses Kublai has to his northwest, don't you? I'm sure he's seen them, thanks to that annoying Scout of his. If he doesn't already have horses elsewhere. Darned AI.

However, there is good news. Look to the north! That's where I think the Settler should go, on the coastal tile 2E of the ivory. It will claim both fish tiles and one ivory; later border pops should claim the other ivory and some incense as well. There are also 2 flood plains there (though the city site I'm considering would only get 1)--very nice for growth and cottaging, don't you think? That could be another commerce city. If I hadn't settled in place, either the pigs or one of the fish tiles would have been wasted, so again, that call was correct.

There's also two sources of stone around, which would be key to my desired Spiral Minaret/U. of Sankore strategy--one to the north, one to the northwest. You can't see it in this screenshot, but the northern stone has no convenient food source and a lot of nearby desert. Ugh. The northwest one, however, has pigs, wheat, and silk nearby. Should I rush the Settler over there instead, 1S of the stone? Yeah, I know it has a desert and a peak, but everything else is choice. It's kind of far for a 2nd city, but Izzy may beat me to it if I don't grab it soon. 3rd city? I can't go south because of Kublai, nor due west or east because of the jungle. So north and northwest are my only expansion options.

Copper is not in a convenient location, and there's a lot of jungle to deal with, so Iron Working may be a very important tech for this game. I'm researching Pottery now--but what should I research after that?

Anyway, as usual, it's a mix of good news and bad news. The capital is turning out to be an amazing location, and we have two very good early units now at our disposal. Despite my attempt to use fractal maps to get something different, we appear to have a standard sized continent yet again! Though it could be a pangaea as well, though my instincts tell me it's not. We'll see.

 

[cabert]

I'd go for a land city (you don't know fishing, do you?).
Pigs + FP + elephants (+ incense later) by settling on a desert tile would make a very nice fogbusting city with enough food to work the incense lol: never happened to me) and room for some cottages.

If you manage to expand fast enough, your fishing city will be possible still a bit later.

Of course, it's higher maintenance but I stick with the rexing strat.
If you want to take KK out of the game, be sure to keep his cities .
The bad part is you don't even have barracks.
So you're really far away from a medic too.