ALC Game 13: Mali/Mansa Musa

[LucyDuke]

Rock and roll!

I totally agree with KMadCandy, it's great when you get asked for some crap old tech that you couldn't sell for beans, it's essentially a free +1 diplo for a while, and how much research did you save him, anyway, four turns? You don't want to deal with a grumpy Mehmed right now, so no harm done.

I'd forget about the great library. You're financial, so you'll be pretty steady in research anyway, and right now you need to focus on wiping that Mongorian off the map before he can upgrade his archers. If you're not sure you'll catch it anyway, is it really worth the diversion?

Also, keep construction to yourself for now. Mehmed isn't trustworthy, and soon you'll have a giant pile of freshly conquered cities that he'd probably love to take off your hands if he smells opportunity. Isabella will warm up soon enough. It's almost too bad that Mehmed didn't found Confucianism and alienate the Spaniard.

I too agree with Validator on the keep/raze cities. Might be good to keep a settler handy, though, if Mehmed starts poking his nose in where it doesn't belong.

 

[KMadCandy]

What's this culture war with Isabella over a pig? Have you lost all perspective!!

isabella has that effect tho. she has no perspective, just obsession. that has the result of me obsessing a bit too about some things where she's concerned. she's an annoying brat and i never want to completely ignore her and let her get too much land while i'm off doing other stuff.

and i do have this personal issue where i love gloating when i win a tile from an AI with culture. i mentally "neener neener" them. yeah, i'm mature, i admit it.

 

[Elrohir]

What's this culture war with Isabella over a pig? Have you lost all perspective!!

Oh come on Pigswill, doesn't The Great Pig War have a nice ring to it? I would think with a name like that, you'd be all for liberating as many little piggies as possible.

 

[pigswill]

I suppose Sisiutil could suddenly impose a 'liberate all the pigs in the world' variant to his game (or it could be a variant for a shadow game!). But when playing 'just win' its still a distraction.

 

[Sisiutil]

I suppose Sisiutil could suddenly impose a 'liberate all the pigs in the world' variant to his game (or it could be a variant for a shadow game!). But when playing 'just win' its still a distraction.

This is a game that tends to make you obsess over the little things.

I won't be able to play the next round until tomorrow at the earliest. Just FYI.

 

[Validator]

I have some time to kill today, so let me clarify my views on some issues:

My reasoning behind suggesting razing many of the Mongolian cities involves trying to maximize the potential of the captured land. This is important IMO if the rest of the game plays out peacefully since the cities you end up with after the Mongolian war will have to see you through to victory. What may be important to decide at this point is whether cultural or spaceship is the intended victory type as this will effect the decisions on whether to raze or not. My earlier recommendations were made based on pursuing a space race win.

Regarding Turfan, yes it is a good city site. But its location also means that a number of tiles either won't be worked or will be worked by a city that is squeezed in with major overlap and limited potential. By razing Turfan it allows two good cities to be built in that space. One built 2 tiles SW will be a strong production city, which will be helpful in producing military units if other wars are to be fought. But more importantly it will also be very useful when it comes to building spaceship parts. The other city built 1 NE of Turfan will be a decent commerce city (although not as good as Turfan). Overall this is a better option when shooting for the stars. However if the decision is to go cultural then Turfan might be a good choice for one of the three culture cities because of its high commerce potential.

Old Sarai will make a good production city with six hills and a banana plantation to feed the miners. But moving it one tile E keeps all of those tiles and adds a seventh hill. If OS had a high population at this point I would recommend keeping it, but it will go to size 2 when captured, and its unlikely there will be any buildings so really there is minimal cost in relocating it to make it a better city. Again, for space race having high production cities is important.

Ning-hsia was just a badly placed city IMO that should be moved. Exactly where depends on whether or not the clams can be used by another city that claims the copper. If Mehmed hasn't founded a city to claim the copper by the time Ning-hsia is attacked I think it would be a good idea to have a settler ready to found a copper city immediately (in fact I'd wait to attack Ning-hsia until the settler is there). Although you have iron, remember that copper speeds up some builds including space ship parts.

One major point in favor of razing is that it will help financially because some of the city sites do not have to be refounded immediately. The two Turfan replacements and the Ning-hsia replacement could really be left for a while until finances have stabilized a bit. The Old Sarai replacement might also be able to wait if Kumbi Saleh and Hittite both get border expansions soon (and they should).



As to the debate over CoL vs. Currency, I think if you ignore trade opportunities for the moment Currency is clearly the more immediately beneficial tech. You would get income from extra trade routes without needing to spend any hammers (which is good since we want the hammers to go for more military at this point). When you can afford to put some hammers into a civilian build a market in Timbuktu will give a sizable return since that city is generating most of the empire's commerce. And Currency is a pre-requisite for CoL so that tech would become cheaper. I don't really see any immediate financial benefit from CoL since cities would have to build courthouses and none of the outlying cities really are strong production cities. Also I don't know that city maintenance will be all that bad, especially if you raze some of the cities and wait a bit to rebuild. CoL does make caste system available, but I don't think you're going to be in a position to take advantage of it any time soon.

So the only reason I can see to research CoL first is if you're confident it will offer better tech trades. One question I would ask is if you research CoL first and find you can't trade it for Currency at that point would you research Currency yourself or research other techs and wait for a trade to become available? It would seem to be a waste to research a tech and follow it by researching one of its pre-req techs.



Finally we have the cultural war over the pigs. My view is that you've lost this round. Seville already has a monument, library, Buddhist temple and Buddhist monastery plus getting culture from having the state religion present. You're not going to be able to flip that tile any time soon simply by constructing culture buildings. In the not very distant future there will be some other options available that will get the job done. Music will allow building culture and will also make cathedrals available. And there's the possibility of a great artist or building a wonder in KS. That's why right now I would like to see KS's hammers go to support the war effort in some way.

 

[Elrohir]

I suppose Sisiutil could suddenly impose a 'liberate all the pigs in the world' variant to his game (or it could be a variant for a shadow game!). But when playing 'just win' its still a distraction.

Or perhaps a "rancher" game, where the object is to gain control of as many cows, pigs, sheep, ivory and elephants as possible. That could be an interesting contest.

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

I suppose Sisiutil could suddenly impose a 'liberate all the pigs in the world' variant to his game (or it could be a variant for a shadow game!). But when playing 'just win' its still a distraction.

LIBERATE THE BACON!!!

 

[Validator]

The ironic thing is that if the war with Kublai goes as well as expected and there's no more fighting in this game the issue of how and when Sisuitil will flip the pig tile may provide the most suspense in the remainder of the game.

 

[futurehermit]

Ignoring iron and bee-lining Construction is a valid strategy, but it is a gamble. You're leaving yourself with limited defenses up until the point you finish researching Construction. If a neighbor with iron decides to attack you with swords during that time you don't have a counter. Skirmishers might be able to keep your cities from falling, but there would be no way to stop pillaging.

Skipping IW would get you to Construction a bit faster which means more turns to wreak havoc with your cats/ellies which is definitely an advantage. But if you get attacked when you have no defense you can basically lose the game with that move. Is the risk worth it? I didn't think so in this case and apparently Sisuitil agreed. Although as it turned there probably wouldn't have been any problem.

chariots handle all pillagers except spears in the early going. the odds of kublai attacking to pillage with spears seems low to me...not to mention going alphabet means you can gift techs to aggressors to get them to pleased to help deter attacks...

 

[patagonia]

The ironic thing is that if the war with Kublai goes as well as expected and there's no more fighting in this game the issue of how and when Sisuitil will flip the pig tile may provide the most suspense in the remainder of the game.

We've got all the military techs we need and financial can survive for a while without currency/CoL, so how about a music beeline

Alternatively, I'd favour CoL if you pick between that and currency, not for courthouses but for caste system. All the artists, merchants and scientists you could want for a limited period...what spiritual leader could resist?

 

[Sisiutil]

The ironic thing is that if the war with Kublai goes as well as expected and there's no more fighting in this game the issue of how and when Sisuitil will flip the pig tile may provide the most suspense in the remainder of the game.

This made my day!!

Turns out I might be able to play the next round tonight after all. If so, Kublai dies, pure and simple. I like Validator's plan and will likely follow it, though of course I'm open to dissenting opinions between now and then.

 

[KMadCandy]

Or perhaps a "rancher" game, where the object is to gain control of as many cows, pigs, sheep, ivory and elephants as possible. That could be an interesting contest.

don't forget the deer and ponies! oink oink.

 

[futurehermit]

With 9 or so cities cottage up and go ftw. Diplomacy will be important to ensure continued safety for the remainder of the game...

 

[Rancid Sushi]

With 9 or so cities cottage up and go ftw. Diplomacy will be important to ensure continued safety for the remainder of the game...

Yeah, but diplomacy should be pretty straightforward. I would try to get friendly with one of the more powerful civs and seek out a defensive pact as soon as possible. DPs usually discourage AIs from attacking you.

 

[futurehermit]

^^^it can also be a good idea though to bribe civs to go to war with each other while you zoom toward space victory. of course this has to be done carefully lest they sign peace and then one of them comes after you for bribing someone to go to war with them...

 

[Torvoni]

It looks like Gao will be able to support FOUR artists . . . at least I think it works out that way with two fish each with fishing boats plus lighthouse for six times two equals twelve food plus the two food from the city square gives a total of fourteen food which will support seven citizens ... so maybe Gao will be able to support FIVE artists. I always get confused by trying to count.

Anyway, even if Gao only runs THREE artists, the plan should be to get into Caste System as soon as possible, then use those fish to generate a Great Artist, then use that Great Artist to culture bomb Isabella, in order to peacefully capture the pigs. I spend most of all my games in Caste System. Usually I run almost all scientists everywhere, but sometimes artists. It is always a big disappointment to come out of Caste System for any reason.

It seems like maybe this game instead of killing Isabella you should make her your very best friend. If you match her religion and give her free techs and join her in wars, you should be able to get her up to +13 or +14 or some ridiculous friendly status. You could give her the free health from the extra fish with no strings attached. Be her best friend.

Or not.
Either way is fine.

 

[Obsydian]

I like Validator’s plan as well. But after killing off Kublai, kill off Isabella as well. That’s the simplest and easiest way to sort out the border dispute with those pigs. Madrid founded buddism. If you can assimilate that city, then you get that nice espionage bonus (buddist cities come into your line of sight). Make a Great Priest, build a shrine in Madrid and you won’t have to worry about money again. Reseach astronomy somewhere along the line and buddism should spread to the other continent(s).

You can still play peacefully, but that can be done AFTER you wipe out Isabella. I wouldn’t trust sharing a continent with a freak like her. She is pushing her cultural borders over yours and it will only get worse. Stop her early otherwise it will get a lot harder later on.

 

[Validator]

But after killing off Kublai, kill off Isabella as well. That’s the simplest and easiest way to sort out the border dispute with those pigs.

...

You can still play peacefully, but that can be done AFTER you wipe out Isabella. I wouldn’t trust sharing a continent with a freak like her.

There's no doubt that the easiest way to get control of the pigs is militarily. Attacking Isabella probably would be easy and might well be the optimal strategy to use in the game since warmongering is so powerful compared to playing peacefully. (The major flaw in the Civ4's design IMO.)

But some times its nice to try alternative approaches. In this game I think the general feeling was to try to play as peacefully as possible, even if it isn't optimal.

I disagree with your sentiments regarding Isabella. As long as you share a religion with her she's actually the easiest AI to get along with. The large "brothers of the faith" diplo bonus will keep her Pleased even if you refuse her demands, and if you give her what she asks for she'll be Friendly, which eliminates the WFYABTA limits and can make her an excellent trading partner.

How peacefully the remainder of this game will be played depends a lot on what Mehmed does in terms of religion. If he stays Buddhist I wouldn't see any reason for Sisiutil to initiate any more wars. Certainly not over pigs.

 

[KMadCandy]

... In this game I think the general feeling was to try to play as peacefully as possible, even if it isn't optimal.

I disagree with your sentiments regarding Isabella. As long as you share a religion with her she's actually the easiest AI to get along with. The large "brothers of the faith" diplo bonus will keep her Pleased even if you refuse her demands, and if you give her what she asks for she'll be Friendly, which eliminates the WFYABTA limits and can make her an excellent trading partner.

i'm with you there. i don't like her as a rule and consider her a brat because she's so obsessed and stubborn (pig-headed? *giggle*). but in some games she's been a very useful friend. with enough missionaries and time, i've even gotten her to change to a religion i founded ... without asking her to ... in more than one game! i took a screenshot the first time, i was completely flabbergasted. i'd converted my other future allies first, which i guess made her feel peer pressure ... some true believer of the religions she'd founded she turned out to be!

caveat this with the fact that i'm the culture queen when i want to be. in a recent game she had a city that was going to flip to me, guaranteed, and i didn't want it. didn't even want to let it flip and raze it with no diplo penalties since i didn't want to hit the domination limit. so i put a ton of my own troops in her city, exploiting the fact that the formula doesn't check who owns the troops she did finally notice and built a library and theatre etc bless her heart. so i should add a disclaimer that i rarely face issues about my tiles flipping to her...that can cause issues with her even at friendly for some folks who don't know how to fix it. (S will be able to handle it of course. those piggies are so totally ours, they just don't know it yet.)